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How many more will die in 'gun-free' zones before the media start asking why?
Las Vegas Review-Journal ^ | Dec. 16, 2007 | VIN SUPRYNOWICZ

Posted on 12/18/2007 5:36:41 PM PST by neverdem

Police have identified Robert A. Hawkins, 19, as the assailant who killed eight people with a semi-automatic rifle (not an assault rifle) at the Westroads Mall in Omaha Dec. 5.

Chalk up eight more deaths to "gun control."

The shooting was at least the fourth at an American mall or shopping center so far this year, including one in February in Salt Lake City.

Once again, the killer chose a "gun-free" zone.

Nebraska issues permits "allowing" qualified individuals to carry concealed handguns. (The Second and 14th amendments reaffirm that carrying a weapon is a right, not a privilege -- states have no more legitimate power to require a "permit" for weapons carrying than they have to require a "permit" to attend church or publish a newspaper.)

Leaving aside this "permitting" scheme, Nebraska law allows property owners, such as the Westroads Mall, to post signs banning permit holders from legally carrying guns on their property.

("Some chains such as Bag 'N Save have posted signs, and shopping malls such as Westroads Mall have added 'no weapons' clauses to their posted codes of conduct," the Omaha World-Herald reported on March 28.)

"The same was true for the attack at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah in February," reports John Lott in his Dec. 6 article at www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html, headlined "Media Coverage of Mall Shooting Fails to Reveal Mall's Gun-Free-Zone Status."

The question is not whether private property owners have a right to bar firearms on their property -- they do.

(Though selective bans on only some civilians would surely be easier to challenge; watch to see if government police called to such locales are made to check their weapons before entering.)

Rather, the first question here is whether our government agencies are making it fully clear to the managers of buildings otherwise open to the public -- such as Clark County's courthouses and public libraries -- that they will not be shielded from the financial repercussions should employees or customers die under circumstances where they could otherwise have defended themselves and others with their own firearms.

The second question? Mr. Lott, author of "Freedomnomics" and a senior research scholar at the University of Maryland, put it very well in the Fox News column in question:

"A Google news search using the phrase 'Omaha Mall Shooting' finds an incredible 2,794 news stories worldwide" in the first 24 hours alone, Mr. Lott notes. "But ... none of the media coverage, at least by 10 a.m. (Dec. 6), mentioned this central fact: Yet another attack occurred in a gun-free zone.

"Surely, with all the reporters who appear at these crime scenes and seemingly interview virtually everyone there, why didn't one simply mention the signs that ban guns from the premises?" asks Mr. Lott, who posts the "No weapons allowed" sign from Salt Lake City's Trolley Square Mall (it's rule 10) at http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2007/02/proof-that-trolley-square-mall-in-utah.html.

"Oh come on, Vin," someone will protest at this point. "It wouldn't matter even if these places did allow people to carry guns. Hardly anyone goes armed, so how often would a plain old non-policeman with a gun really save lives?"

Pretty often, it turns out.

In 1997, Luke Woodham slit his mother's throat, grabbed a .30-30 rifle and headed to Pearl High School in Pearl, Miss. -- another gun-free zone -- to start shooting people.

The moment Vice Principal Joel Myrick heard the first shots, he took off at a sprint for his truck. (Because Mr. Myrick kept a handgun in his truck for just such an eventuality, a deadly stupid federal law required him to park it far from campus.)

Woodham shot until he heard sirens, then ran to his car. His plan, authorities subsequently learned, was to drive to nearby Pearl Junior High School and shoot more kids before police could show up.

Joel Myrick foiled that plan, positioning himself to point his gun at Woodham's windshield. Woodham swerved and crashed the car. Myrick held the killer at gunpoint till police arrived, stopping the killing spree.

In 2002, as Mr. Lott reported in The National Review, "Two law students with law-enforcement backgrounds as deputy sheriffs in another state stopped the shooting at the Appalachian Law School in Virginia. ... The students ran to their cars, got their guns, pointed their guns at the attacker, ordered him to drop his gun, and then tackled him and held him until police were able to arrive," thus saving many lives.

At the Trolley Square attack in Utah this year, "Possibly the ban there was even more noteworthy because the off-duty police officer who stopped the attack fortunately violated the ban by taking his gun in with him when he went shopping," Mr. Lott reports.

"There are plenty of cases every year where permit holders stop what would have been multiple victim shootings, but they rarely receive any news coverage," Mr. Lott protests. "When will part of the media coverage on these multiple-victim public shootings be whether guns were banned where the attack occurred?"

Fortunately, we saw the way it works when citizens are armed, less than a week after the Omaha shootings. Shortly after midnight on Dec. 9, Matthew Murray, who had been rejected from a missionary school in Colorado, shot and killed two staffers there. Twelve hours later he drove to the parking lot of the related New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where about 7,000 people were present for the midday service, and opened fire in the parking lot, killing two young women.

Jeanne Assam, 42, a member of the congregation who used to work as a police officer, volunteers to guard the church.

Assam hid. She waited until Murray -- carrying a rifle, two pistols and a backpack with more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition -- entered the church. Then she "came out of cover, identified myself and took him down," she told a packed news conference Monday.

The coroner later reported the wounded assailant took his own life -- but not till Assam had blown him to the ground.

Authorities and her minister say Assam saved untold lives -- lives that would have been lost, had Murray attacked in a disarmed-victim city like Los Angeles, New York or Washington.

If you frequent public buildings or work for an employer who bars you from carrying your otherwise legal self-defense weapon, consider advising your loved ones in writing that -- in the event you should die under circumstances where you could have saved yourself and others with your handgun -- you want the proprietor sued personally.

Guns save lives. Since banning guns costs lives, shouldn't the individuals who ban self-defense -- not the victimized taxpayers -- pay the price?

Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Review-Journal and author of the novel "The Black Arrow." See www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=vin&vci=51238921.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; gunfreezone; gunfreezones; johnlott
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1 posted on 12/18/2007 5:36:50 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem
Wayne LaPierre was right when he said, "DemocRATS are willing to tolerate a certain level of gun violence so-as to keep it alive as a political issue."

As to your question...nobody can give an exact number. Let's just say a lot. A whole lot.

2 posted on 12/18/2007 5:39:15 PM PST by Texas Eagle (Could pacifists exist if there weren't people brave enough to go to war for their right to exist?)
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To: neverdem
The answer to the question in the headline is that the media have no curiosity when it comes to certain things.

This is one of those things. There are others.

3 posted on 12/18/2007 5:43:07 PM PST by elkfersupper
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To: neverdem

I love Vin, but he’s assuming anti-gunners are anti-gun because they oppose violence. Wrong. They’re anti-gun because they oppose individual action and responsibility. That’s why, while you’ll find liberals and conservatives on both sides of an issue like abortion or gay rights, anti-gunners are almost universally liberal.

Allowing an individual to own a gun and defend himself, rather than have him fall in with the collective and rely on the State or laws, sickens them. That’s why they reserve their nastiest bile for people who defend themselves, pay for their own health care and create wealth independently, without government confiscating and transferring it.

Marx was wrong. The history of all hitherto existing society is NOT the history of class struggles. It’s the history of the Individual against the State, and the desire for so-called “gun free zones” crystallizes that.


4 posted on 12/18/2007 5:47:24 PM PST by VirginiaConstitutionalist ("Freedom is the right to question and change the established way of doing things." -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: neverdem

see also:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940240/posts
(27 replies)


5 posted on 12/18/2007 5:47:52 PM PST by xcamel (FDT/2008)
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To: neverdem
If you frequent public buildings or work for an employer who bars you from carrying your otherwise legal self-defense weapon,

Nowadays, I carry almost everywhere,(legally), and I would carry also in a so-called Gun-Free Zone, ie. a mall.

If I took out a gun-wielding mad man, even though I was carrying in a Gun-Free Zone, what jury would convict me?

6 posted on 12/18/2007 5:49:56 PM PST by PROCON (Merry CHRISTmas!!)
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To: neverdem

The very reason there are liberals is because their ability to reason, logically was arrested at age 10.


7 posted on 12/18/2007 5:51:05 PM PST by G Larry (HILLARY CARE = DYING IN LINE!)
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To: VirginiaConstitutionalist
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
8 posted on 12/18/2007 6:25:57 PM PST by Graybeard58 ( Remember and pray for SSgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: xcamel

Thanks for the link. Searching didn’t catch it because I included the question mark.

How many more will die in ‘gun-free’ zones before the media start asking why

How many more will die in ‘gun-free’ zones before the media start asking why?


9 posted on 12/18/2007 6:27:33 PM PST by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem

some of the related comments are really good...


10 posted on 12/18/2007 6:33:08 PM PST by xcamel (FDT/2008)
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To: neverdem
As long as the “media” is populated by a bunch of leftist trained “journalists” who went to college where they were taught what to think, rather than how to think, then forever.

Until something radical has happened in this country that brings us back to self reliance, then it will be forever.

The left in this country must be addressed forcefully and we must win in the court of public opinion, or we will certainly perish. Take that to the bank.

11 posted on 12/18/2007 6:40:04 PM PST by alarm rider (Why should I not vote my conscience?)
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To: PROCON
Legally....Smegally.

I carry when I see fit.

12 posted on 12/18/2007 6:41:56 PM PST by Osage Orange (Molon Labe)
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To: Osage Orange
Legally....Smegally. I carry when I see fit.

You have the right to remain silent.../LOL!!

I'm with you Bro!!

13 posted on 12/18/2007 6:46:58 PM PST by PROCON (Merry CHRISTmas!!)
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To: neverdem

Wow! I’ve never seen those signs before..........and never will.


14 posted on 12/18/2007 6:52:09 PM PST by stimpy17 (Home of the free because of the Brave.)
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To: PROCON
I have this discussion with friends and co-workers....

How does anyone "know" I'm carrying....if I don't tell them?

I've been "pulled over" once in the last 25 yrs...And then never asked if I was "carrying"...nor "padded down".

I'm a for all intents and purposes, a law-abiding citizen. I don't worry about being "legal" or not....when it comes to my family or me.

15 posted on 12/18/2007 6:58:57 PM PST by Osage Orange (Molon Labe)
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To: Osage Orange
I don't worry about being "legal" or not....when it comes to my family or me.

Exactly, FRiend.

I even carry in Church, and sit way in the back!

16 posted on 12/18/2007 7:03:34 PM PST by PROCON (Merry CHRISTmas!!)
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To: neverdem

How many gun shows in the USA? THOUSANDS

How many shootings at gun shows in the USA? zero.


17 posted on 12/18/2007 7:04:00 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: neverdem

The common denominator of mass shootings - Gun Free Zones


18 posted on 12/18/2007 7:10:50 PM PST by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: 2harddrive

http://www.nationalgunrights.org/images/gun-free-zone-cLR.jpg


19 posted on 12/18/2007 7:17:20 PM PST by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: Osage Orange
I am armed at all times, period, a gun free establishment doesn't get any of my money.

I encourage everyone who works for me to carry while working, half of them do, I try to keep the half that don't, out of the barrios.

20 posted on 12/18/2007 7:19:51 PM PST by c-b 1 (Reporting from behind enemy lines, in occupied AZTLAN.)
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To: Osage Orange
"Hardly anyone goes armed, so how often would a plain old non-policeman with a gun really save lives?"

I have a gut feeling that there are more people armed than not, but no one will ever know who they are under normal situations.

I have this discussion with friends and co-workers.... How does anyone "know" I'm carrying....if I don't tell them? I've been "pulled over" once in the last 25 yrs...And then never asked if I was "carrying"...nor "padded down". I'm a for all intents and purposes, a law-abiding citizen. I don't worry about being "legal" or not....when it comes to my family or me.

Same here. I prefer to have it and never need it, than to need it and never have it, and I suspect there are more people than anyone really knows about, who feel much the same way.

21 posted on 12/18/2007 7:51:06 PM PST by pigsmith (Viewing life as a gift from God, I tend to regard self-defense more as an obligation.)
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To: c-b 1
I hope that when you and your crew order a pizza delivery, you’ll request an “armed delivery driver”.

It is time for those of us that order Food, to tell the Sellers of our view on Licensed Carry.

22 posted on 12/18/2007 7:52:30 PM PST by PizzaDriver (an heinleinian/libertarian)
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To: PizzaDriver

While we are thinking about making American safer from the Anti-gunners in Management; let’s think look at the firms that deliver our Pizza, Chinese food, etc.

Those drivers work dark streets and rough areas. Most of their Bosses won’t let them “carry”.

Isn’t it time to start requesting a “licensed to carry” driver; when we order a Pizza?


23 posted on 12/18/2007 8:14:17 PM PST by PizzaDriver (an heinleinian/libertarian)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ...
The media will never question why, just as their politician taskmasters won't. It is my considered opinion that the political left is more than happy to accept whatever carnage is necessary to enact their agenda, which is nothing less than the complete disarmament of the population. Then the fun would really begin.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

24 posted on 12/19/2007 5:25:55 AM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Joe Brower; neverdem
Vin nails it again!


25 posted on 12/19/2007 5:31:39 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: PROCON
I was carrying in a Gun-Free Zone, what jury would convict me?

Any jury in New York City ala Bernard Goetz for one. Any jury in MA. Most juries in Maryland - particularly those in the heart of darkness, Baltimore City, Prince Georges, and Montgomery counties. Juries in NJ, CT, and RI would convict you. Not only is self defense a more serious crime than assault in these benighted places, but the majority of the people who live there want it this way.

Give NY and MA to Quebec Other than punishing the "party hearty" French canadians there isn't any downside.

26 posted on 12/19/2007 5:39:30 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government, Benito Guilinni a short man in search of a balcony)
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To: neverdem
Guns save lives. Since banning guns costs lives, shouldn't the individuals who ban self-defense -- not the victimized taxpayers -- pay the price?

Amen. Charge those pushing victim disarmament laws with "accessory to murder" and "deprivation of civil rights under color of law"(USC Title 18, 241/242).

We need to start doing this before more innocent law abiding people get slaughtered.

27 posted on 12/19/2007 6:47:51 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Travis McGee

I read his Black Arrow book. Not bad. Not as good as Enemies, but not a bad read either. Had a bit more of that Gotham/”over the top” Batman type feel to it.


28 posted on 12/19/2007 6:49:38 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Dead Corpse

IMHO, Vin should stick to what he does best, non-fiction like this.


29 posted on 12/19/2007 6:51:15 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

Dunno... I’ve only read the one book of his. His articles like this are fairly well thought out, I agree...


30 posted on 12/19/2007 6:52:37 AM PST by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: alarm rider
The left in this country must be addressed forcefully

That Sir is the key ... EVERY America loving patriots MUST address the liberals FORCEFULLY ... DO NOT be polite with them. If you hear them talking their crap ... confront them ... stand up to them .. let them know that they are opposed ... and why. Mrs Clamper and I do ALL the time.

31 posted on 12/19/2007 6:57:43 AM PST by clamper1797 (Fred Thompson - Duncan Hunter for POTUS and Vice Potus in either order)
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To: longtermmemmory
How many shootings at gun shows in the USA? zero.

Actually I believe there have been some accidental shootings at gun shows...

32 posted on 12/19/2007 7:10:11 AM PST by Osage Orange (Molon Labe)
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To: Joe Brower

Fun for who? All I hope


33 posted on 12/19/2007 7:11:44 AM PST by wastedyears ("I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: neverdem
Ninety five percent of the media are registered and vote liberal DemocRat. They are here to manipulate opinion not report facts. The five percent are lucky to get a story like this past the censors (sorry) editors.
34 posted on 12/19/2007 7:13:36 AM PST by Navy Patriot (The hyphen American with the loudest whine gets the grease.)
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To: VirginiaConstitutionalist
I love Vin, but he’s assuming anti-gunners are anti-gun because they oppose violence. Wrong. They’re anti-gun because they oppose individual action and responsibility.

Actually, the unspoken premise behind the gun-banners motives runs deeper and sicker than that. These moral midgets firmly believe that your life simply doesn't belong to you; that human beings are merely fungible assets whose terms of existence are dictated by the State. At the end of the day, you're a cow to be milked, a meat animal to be served up and sacrified to whatever whim suits them.

That's why they have such a visceral hatred of those of us who posess the means to deny them their premise, their vision of Utopia. No amount of reason, fact or rational argument will ever change them. Draw your own conclusions from that last statement - and act accordingly.

35 posted on 12/19/2007 7:17:59 AM PST by Noumenon (Liberalism itself is a hate crime)
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To: Noumenon
Draw your own conclusions from that last statement - and act accordingly

Similar to what I've been saying: that the anti-gunners are not swayed by logic or reason. They have absolutely no consideration for you or your famiy's safety. The constitution is meaningless to them. They worship the state and anything that diminishes the power of the state over the individuals is heresy to them. There are only three possible outcomes

  1. We are killed by their beloved police resisting a "state where only the police and military are armed"
  2. we are completely enslaved with no choices (hilarycare gun control etc)
  3. They are killed
Those are the only possible outcomes.
36 posted on 12/19/2007 8:02:39 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government, Benito Guilinni a short man in search of a balcony)
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To: PizzaDriver
Isn’t it time to start requesting a “licensed to carry” driver; when we order a Pizza?

At 22, I delivered pizza in a rough part of town, I carried. My boss always carried and he knew I carried too. Didn't have a state sanctioned permit to carry but I had a God given right to defend myself. Never had to use it though, thanks to some quick thinking and fast feet.

37 posted on 12/19/2007 8:38:46 AM PST by ironwill (I want my daddy's records.)
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To: neverdem
-- but not till Assam had blown him to the ground.

Not with a handgun. Not even with a real assault rifle. Typical ignorance and overstatement by the press.

38 posted on 12/19/2007 8:45:04 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: ironwill
Rarely do I shop in a business that is a "gun free zone".

I don't want to be the only good guy who is armed if bad things happen.

39 posted on 12/19/2007 9:21:00 AM PST by TYVets (God so loved the world he didn't send a committee)
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To: neverdem

WHY DO THEY WANT OUR GUNS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73SsNFgBO4


40 posted on 12/19/2007 9:37:06 AM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: neverdem
Carrying a "forbidden" weapon on private property isn't necessarily a guaranteed trip to the pokey. Most states regulate such issues as property violations at the local level in the form of a county ordinance.

However for businesses who wish to forbid employees to have a weapon on the premises, well that somehow justifies a state law providing for criminal sanctions.

In my home of Miami-Florida the local ordinance is very loosely orchestrated in favor of the CCW'er. The ordinance reads in part that any person otherwise lawfully carrying a concealed weapon onto private property shall be subjected to the following upon detection by the property owner or his security personnel:

If a person carries a forbidden weapon onto private property and is detected, then he may be asked to leave the property. If that person returns and is still armed, he may be arrested for Trespass After Warning, a misdemeanor. This correctly puts the person holding a valid ccw permit in violation of company policy. When it comes to personal and family defense, that makes it easier, obviously. I have no problems violating anybodys "policy."

Everytime I go to the mall with the wife for whatever shopping duty must be fulfilled, I'm carrying. Sometimes that might be a S&W M642 in a convienent pocket holster or lately it's more likely to be a Sig P226 carried invisibly even under a mere "Polo" style shirt. Check out the website. There are a couple of interesting videos as demonstrations there. I have never suffered the embarrassment of a "detection." I've chatted with LEOs and mall security and neither has given the first hint they saw something amiss in my apparel.

CROSSBREED

41 posted on 12/19/2007 9:52:40 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Dead Corpse; wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; ...
Amen. Charge those pushing victim disarmament laws with "accessory to murder" and "deprivation of civil rights under color of law"(USC Title 18, 241/242).

Thanks for the citations. Merry Christmas!

§ 241. Conspiracy against rights

§ 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law

Definitely worth a gander!

42 posted on 12/19/2007 2:19:15 PM PST by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem
How many more will die in 'gun-free' zones before the media start asking why?

The Drive-by media fails to see the correlation
of mass murders with their use of SSRIs.

43 posted on 12/19/2007 2:27:22 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: neverdem; AdmSmith; Berosus; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...

Thanks neverdem.


44 posted on 12/19/2007 3:16:24 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Tuesday, December 18, 2007___________________https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: neverdem
Rather, the first question here is whether our government agencies are making it fully clear to the managers of buildings otherwise open to the public -- ... -- that they will not be shielded from the financial repercussions should employees or customers die under circumstances where they could otherwise have defended themselves and others with their own firearms.

The problem with that is that employees and customers enter those properties by their own free will. The answer is to decline to work or shop in gun free zones. Don't volunteer to be a victim.

45 posted on 12/19/2007 3:18:27 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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To: ExSoldier
Not with a handgun. Not even with a real assault rifle. Typical ignorance and overstatement by the press.

Well, a little poetic license. Vin is not ignorant of firearms. The shooter did go down, just not through pure kinetic energy transfer, which I think is how you are reading "blown to the ground".

46 posted on 12/19/2007 4:25:49 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: from occupied ga

Wow, glad I live in a relatively conservative, although Blue State part of the Country.

I will continue to carry anywhere I go, except for airports, Federal bulidings, etc.

And I hope I never have to use it, but as an old Boy Scout, be prepared!

Merry Christmas!!


47 posted on 12/19/2007 5:08:26 PM PST by PROCON (Merry CHRISTmas!!)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping.


48 posted on 12/19/2007 8:50:49 PM PST by GOPJ (Drug dealers are NOT "unlicensed pharmacists" and illegals are NOT "undocumented workers". Bailey)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping!


49 posted on 12/19/2007 9:11:53 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: El Gato
not through pure kinetic energy transfer, which I think is how you are reading "blown to the ground".

That was exactly how I read the piece. We've all seen the Hollywood mythology of guys hit with the venerable 44 magnum and flipped to the rear as if hit by an 18 wheeler truck. Just ain't so. Right?

50 posted on 12/19/2007 9:35:11 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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