Posted on 12/27/2007 10:04:45 AM PST by america4vr
Russia is to supply Iran with new S-300 air defense systems, Defense Minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said Wednesday, a sign of growing military cooperation between Moscow and Teheran.
"The S-300 air defense system will be delivered to Iran on the basis of a contract signed with Russia in the past," state television quoted Najjar as saying.
Najjar didn't say when or how many of the S-300 anti-aircraft missile defense systems would be shipped to Iran. The S-300s will reportedly be the first such shipment to the Persian country.
The S-300 anti-aircraft missile defense system is capable of shooting down aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missile warheads at ranges of over 90 miles and at altitudes of about 90,000 feet. Russian military officials boast that its capabilities outstrip the US Patriot missile system.
Earlier this year, Russia delivered 29 Tor-M1 to Iran under a $700 million contract signed in December 2005.
Najjar said S-300 missile was one of the most sophisticated weapons in the world, with a longer range than the Tor-M1 surface-to-air missiles.
"While Tor-M1 missiles can hit targets at low altitude, S-300 missile have an extraordinary performance against targets at high altitude," Najjar said.
Russian officials wouldn't comment on the Iranian statement, but the Interfax news agency quoted an unidentified source in the Russian military-industrial complex as saying that a contract for the missiles delivery had been signed several years ago and envisaged the delivery of several dozen S-300 missile systems.
The S-300 is much more powerful and versatile weapon than the Tor-M1 missile systems supplied earlier which were capable of hitting aerial targets flying at up to 6,000 meters.
Rumors about the sale of S-300 missile systems to Iran have circulated for a long time, but Russian officials consistently denied it.
(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...
Notice how the word "new" is used in describing Russia's latest weapons systems offering to Iran, the S-300.With the overall state of ineptitude that characterizes the effectiveness of Russian weaponry, I don't think the s-300, new or otherwise is going to make the slightest difference in the case of any real-world scenario.
But I thought President Bush said that Putti was a good man and our friend????
As on yesterday’s thread, Iran is free to waste its money any way they want.
According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300
“Iran’s status regarding the S-300 system remains controversial. They seem to have acquired an unknown number of S-300PMU-1 missiles in 1993, maybe even recently from Belarus.[17] Iran signed a contract with Russia on 25 December 2007 on the sales of the S-300PMU-1 missile system. The date of S-300 delivery is yet to be revealed.”
and
“Syria announced an intention to buy the S-300P in 1991 and now seems to possess the system”
We all know the efficacy of the Syrian air defense.
He is. You don’t think that crap really works do you? Look at that big screen. Why you could charge kids a dollar to jump up on it in a Velcro suit. Now selling Typhoon Class subs to China...that’s as stupid a move as any I’ve ever seen. Those SSN’s have Moscow hard wired into the targeting system.
Bush simply said that Putin could be trusted.
Personally, I have fair amount of respect for Russian hardware. Usually, problems with it had more to do with the crews, than with the equipment.
I’d like to hear from someone who actually trains to fight against this stuff, rather than some blather about it being a piece of junk. We lost a bunch of aircraft in Vietnam to obsolete Russian junk (MiG-17s) and not-so-obsolete SAMs, so our air forces have trained like maniacs ever since to prevent it from recurring. I bet they take this stuff seriously.
Any F-15E jockeys out there who know the real score (and are you allowed to tell us?)?
However, Iran having the S-300 system also doesn't mean that they are now miraculously immune to attack. For one it would depend on how many systems they acquire (having a couple installations doesn't translate into a comprehensive integrated air defense network, and you can bet cash money that the Iranians have not bought enough to make up a S-300 IADs), their level of training (once again, it is doubtful whether there has been sufficient training), and such matters. And that is just looking at the Iranian side of the situation (the Israeli side obviously includes such matters like the Israelis not being utter fools, and thus having some sort of measures to use against the S-300). Thus Iran getting the S-300 doesn't offer them an aegis of protection.
With that said, the S-300 is not the Tor. The S-300 was not used by Syria. And the S-300 can give a lot of headaches if integrated into a comprehensive IADS (this is THE reason that the F-22 Raptor was practicing releasing JDAMs from high altitude at supersonic speed ...with its stealth and sheer kinematic performance the Raptor can eat S-300 sites for breakfast. The problem is that the same cannot be said for legacy fighters).
Anyways, I would be worried if Iran bought enough to truly augment their defense system. If they did, then the Israelis would probably be pushing for Raptor sales with even greater tenacity.
The effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the air defense weapons purchased from the Russians pales in comparison to our disfunctional intelligence gathering. If Congress, the MSM and traitors within the State Department, CIA or other intelligence agencies continue to leak/subvert and hamper our intelligence gathering and compromise us, that is of more concern than any enemy we encounter.
Same thing with aircraft. There has been an interplay between aircraft and SAMs since the 60s. When the Israelis first encountered SAMs (Soviet used by the Egyptians) they had a hard time, but then soon adapted and got the upper hand (but not before losing a number of aircraft). Since then it has been a ping-pong match of SAM versus jet, ECM versus ECCM, sensor fusion versus stealth. In the air to air game the missile has become better than the aircraft (unless you are stealthy), and in short-range A2A combat the short-range IR/IIR missile (be it the US AIM-9X, Ruskie Advanced Archer, EU ASRAAM and Iris-T, Israeli Python 4) have all reached a level whereby getting one shot at you within a given range is a guaranteed kill. Especially with every airforce of note getting helmet mounted sights.
Surface to Air missiles are also coming close to that. Their edge against legacy (i.e F-15s, F-16s, MiG-29s, SU-30s, etc) aircraft has gotten to a level whereby having one shot at you is not exactly the best way to have a good day. In the Gulf War SAMs brought down a number of Allied planes, even though we had a lot of ECM and Wild Weasels doing cover, and even though those were SAMs of an older generation.
Which brings the Raptor ....it can manage to engage even evolved SAM systems with an almost guaranteed level of success. Something no other airframe can say. In the fight between sharpened stick and bow and arrow, the F-22 is the bow and arrow. It is far more expensive than any thing else flyng (well, let us not talk about the B-2), but it will do the job better than any of them.
Right now Israel may not need Raptors, but as more and more nations in the region get advanced missile systems (and I am not talking about Tor) then a point will reach that Israel will need to seriously consider advanced aerial weaponry (not necessary the Raptor mind you ....it could be a stealthy UCAV, and several nations are working on that, or a stealthy stand-off cruise missile). And even then it is not to say that Israel would be neutered ....far from it ....just that more of their planes would get shot down.
The Raptor is expensive, but a point is coming when warfare against countries that can get their hands on certain weapons will require it. Whereby the 'options box' for aircraft will either require a dumb bomb truck (for sending low tech Jihadis to meet their virgins) and a high tech Buck Rogers fighter (for meeting enemies that have more technology than your basic Kalashnikov and how to get the camel to walk an extra mile on the same water ration).
(Although there are other considerations to Israel getting Raptors ....for one, there are some who would not be happy with it because Israel has, on the past, been a little ...erm ....'porous' ....with technology, especially to places like China. The second is what you said ...the cost issue. Although if ....and it is A BIG IF ....Israel gets Raptors, you can be certain that it is Uncle Sam who will be meeting most of the costs involved. The only nation that could possibly pay for Raptors, apart from the US, would be Japan. And as things stand, even they are not getting them)
Geez...first uranium, then helicopters, now missiles. From Russia with love....
Iran is preparing for a deadly apocalyptic holy war, and if we don’t do anything other than sit on our asses at UN meetings and say “It’s a peaceful program,” we are going to suffer the consequences.
Israel's window to move independently is closing rapidly, and the US is sitting on its thumb. Meanwhile Russia is deliberately proliferating to terror master proxies, who will in turn deliberately proliferate to terrorists themselves. And hell will be paid.
...Israel gets Raptors, you can be certain that it is Uncle Sam who will be meeting most of the costs involved.==
Grab you wallet and you know what to do. Some day Uncle Sam will bankrupt himself.
Russia lets US to spend zillions of money for F-22 fleet then come up with the counter measure which renders them off.
Very simple. F-22 is very seen on the santimeter radio band. Agreed? So if you creates the sensitive reciver antenna then you can have the good radar in santimeter band which will see those F22s as the birds in clear sky. So all zillions of US dollars will go to toilet.
Wiki is not an accurate source of info. The S-300/Iran debacle has been running for years now. The S-300 doesn’t appear on any Coalition threat list for Iran. The reason Iran doesn’t have them. Iran doesn’t even operate any S-300 associated radar system, even for early warning. These are strategic SAM systems they need to train with and radiate their associated radars. The minute an associated radar pops up then it is game over for the Russians as the finger will point at them for supplying Iran with such systems.
The Russians have officially stated on the recent announcement that they are not supplying Iran with S-300s. The Russians have too much to lose over not officially announcing such a sale. If they did it underhand then the US will embarass them the minute Iran deploys regiments of S-300s.
Export of SAM systems on the UN Arms Register don’t have to be declared, but Russia does announce them and officially announce the contract. For example the supply of S-300s to Vietnam and Belarus.
If the Russians ever supplied S-300s to Syria or Iran the contract would be officially announced as per the SA-15s (GAUNTLET) (Iran) and the SA-24s (GRINCH) (Syria). Even Belarus abides by the arms register and the Russians wouldn’t support any deliveries going from via that route to Iran. The Russians have far too much to lose the minute such advance SAM systems appear in Iran.
According to this from February 10, 2006 http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/f1477c44-4533-4436-b19d-1948ed806ce2.html “Reports that Iran two years ago acquired two S-300 batteries that have been deployed near Tehran remain unconfirmed to this date.”
But, this is from December 28, 2007, i.e. yesterday:
“RUSSIA SAYS IT IS HELPING IRAN STRENGTHEN AIR DEFENSES
Deputy Foreign Minister Losyukov said on December 27 that Russia is helping Iran strengthen its air defense capabilities, RIA Novosti reported. “I know we are assisting in work to reinforce Iran’s air defense systems,” Losyukov told reporters in Moscow, adding, however, “I have no concrete information on the issue and can make no comment whatsoever on the type of [military] hardware.” Iranian Defense Minister Mostafa Mohammad-Najjar said on December 26 that Russia will supply Iran with the S-300 antiaircraft missile-defense system “on the basis of a contract signed with Russia in the past,” but did not say when or how many of the systems will be shipped to Iran. Russian officials declined to comment on the S-300 sale (see “RFE/RL Newsline,” December 27, 2007). Meanwhile, the Bush administration expressed concern over Iran’s announcement that Russia will supply it with S-300 antiaircraft missile-defense systems, AFP reported. “We have ongoing concerns about the prospective sale of such weapons to Iran and other countries of concern,” said Scott Stanzel, a White House spokesman. JB”
http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2007/12/281207.asp
So, we better update the threat list.
I checked this list http://disarmament.un.org/UN_REGISTER.NSF and the lasted update by Iran was for 1998.
But, I agree with you the Russians have not yet supplied any S-300 to Iran.
In 2006 the Russians supplied India with 149 and China with 944 missiles according to the list above.
Opinion only:
Russia would be silly to miss the chance to combat test the S-300, and I suspect there’s at least couple launchers and a C&C trailer somewhere in Iran, probably under “joint” control.
Most of the modern AD components benefit greatly from a nationwide integrated air defense system, which to my best information, Iran does not have. This would limit the effectiveness of any S-300 systems deployed in Iran, even if Russia supplemented their early warning network with national technical support.
One or two missile systems are one thing, but hiding large shipments of same, as well as the deloyment preparations, and crew training exercises, these are much harder to conceal. The minute you light one of these systems up, odds are somebody watching close will notice.
Best guess says Iran has a very few S-300s, but not many, and not part of a larger IADS.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071228/94513968.html
As per usual the S-300/Iran issue continues. The above is the official reaction in regards to the Iranian announcement.
Any such sale will be officially announced by the Russians as per the Tor deal. The Russians have too much to lose in being found out once the S-300s show up in Iran.
The Iranians probably obtained bits and bobs of the S-300 system from such places as Kazakhstan after the break up of the Soviet Union. Having bits of the system doesn’t make it in anyway operational. Again, the associated radars are the give-away to this system. A system such as this requires to be exercised and tested. Iran can’t manipulate the electromagnetic spectrum. Even a TIN SHIELD early warning radar and associated to S-300 is going to attract the attention and cue imagery to have a look. Iran simply can’t operate such a system and not be found out. The Russians know this and that is why any sale, or even lease, will be officially announced.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.