Navy may revive 4th Fleet in S. Atlantic, Caribbean

Houston Chronicle ^ | 19 Jan 2008 | Carol Rosenberg

[BGHater]

Strategist says move would show U.S. is committed to Latin America

MIAMI — The Navy is considering restoring the 4th Fleet in the Atlantic Ocean, a bureaucratic change that would raise the prominence of Pentagon maritime activities in Latin America and the Caribbean.

Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, made the disclosure during a visit to the Southern Command last week — calling it "a great idea" that "as far as I know is moving forward."

The move would bring no new vessels to the region but would put Southcom on par administratively with other Pentagon outposts that have large budgets and bigger muscle. For example, the Central Command operates the Fifth Fleet in the Middle East.

It would also restore an institution that sent U.S. Navy ships into southern waters in search of Nazi U-boats. The Navy created the 4th Fleet in 1943 to hunt submarines in the South Atlantic during World War II.

It was disbanded seven years later with naval operations in the region run from Norfolk, Va.

Still in planning stage At the Pentagon, Navy Cmdr. Jeff Davis said no final decision has been made. Mullen said if such an institution were created, it would be worked out between the Navy's top officer, Adm. Gary Roughead, and Adm. James Stavridis, the Southcom commander, who runs the region's U.S. military operations out of South Florida.

In theory, the 4th Fleet would operate out of Mayport, Fla., now a smaller headquarters for Navy South, which coordinates Navy activities in Latin America and the Caribbean for Southcom. It is run by a one-star officer, Rear Adm. James Stevenson. A 4th Fleet would be run by a two- or three-star admiral, and may need congressional approval.

Davis emphasized that no new vessels — and no additional budget — would come with the creation of a 4th Fleet.

Instead, warships from various bases would be assigned to sail in the fleet — in waters stretching from the Caribbean through Central and South America.

'A bigger profile' Military analysts said the establishment of a 4th Fleet admiral could elevate Southcom's prominence in discussions on where ships are deployed — and would surely send a signal to southern neighbors.

"It gives the Navy a bigger profile in the region," said Frank Mora, professor of national security strategy at the National War College in Washington, D.C. "It sends a message to the region that you are important at a time when there is a sense that we don't care."

Moreover, it may also reflect the Navy's increasing commitment to Latin America and the Caribbean at a time when the Pentagon is preoccupied — and when ground forces are focused on Middle East operations.

In recent years, the Southern Command has increasingly relied on the Navy for humanitarian operations.

"Symbolism is something that has some currency," Mora said. "It's a way of compensating for limited resources and funds, perhaps lack of focus in Washington or other things."

Mullen, the top U.S. military officer since October, was at Southcom as part of a five-day trip to the region that includes Colombia and El Salvador.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Tiger Cruise ?

[tanknetter]

The Kitty Hawk has a one way ticket to the scrap yard.

Nope. She'll either end up as a museum ship (Wilmington, NC has a group trying to get funding together to bring her there. Major issues exist with Wilmington not being big enough to handle a supercarrier), or get sunk like America was, and Forrestfire, Constellation and Independence are scheduled to be.

[tanknetter]

perhaps this signals a time when a reserve carrier is needed to patrol the area’s of the 4th fleet....perhaps the JFK?

JFK's never coming back out of mothballs. The reason she left service "early" (was scheduled to go to Japan as the forward-deployed deck through 2018) was because her flightdeck was so messed up it would have cost too much money to fix and recertify.

[PAR35]

I'd just figure Ms. Kitty would have some years left in her.

The Kennedy was the one that was supposed to remain in service until 2017 or so, before its sudden retirement. The Kitty Hawk would have needed a major overhaul to have extended its useful life.

After we started this exchange, it occurred to me that what is really needed for that theater are a couple of light carriers loaded with F-35Bs, a few choppers, and perhaps some modified Bell 609s. Something along the lines of a slightly modified Wasp class. Base one in Florida, one somewhere on the central or western Gulf.

And, of course, I've previously advocated a couple of dozen DE subs with AIP for operations in the Gulf, Carribean, and the Western border areas.

[RSmithOpt]

I'm very proud of this old girl...she served her country well and has the most (15) battle stars of all in her class:

Most folks dont know:

After overhaul at Pearl Harbor, North Carolina rejoined the carriers for a month of air strikes and naval bombardment on the Japanese home islands. Along with guarding the carriers, North Carolina fired on major industrial plants near Tokyo, and her scout plane pilots performed a daring rescue of a downed carrier pilot under heavy fire in Tokyo Bay.

Now proudly resting in Wilmington:

I can remember as a kid (1st grader)in elementary school in Fayetteville, taking my lunch milk money (3 cents a day) and dropping it into a big pickle jar in the cafeteria to help the fund to bring her home and save her from the cutting torches. Then, what else would you expect from a Sargent-Major's son from the 82nd.

Hugo could seriously get a deep clear thought maybe looking at something like this, but those of the IOWA BB's.

It says a lot.

[PAR35]

You are correct - more likely to be sunk than actually recycled. The last few attempts to make museums out of large ships didn’t turn out too well, as I recall.

[tanknetter]

A big deck CVN isn't needed for this kind of patrol work. Much better idea would be to rotate an LHA/LHD or two through the assignment. Harriers and helos, plus the ability to operate all sorts of watercraft from the well deck, should suffice.

Missing element would be organic AEW&C. Given the proximity to CONUS, using land-based E-2s, E-3s or the P-3 AEWs would be a viable option, although the LAMPS radar on the SH-60s might be enough. If a ship-based AEW&C is needed, the USN could adopt the solution used by the RN, Italian and Spanish Navies and put a bagged radar onto some helos.

Then again (and mostly joking here), the USN could always just buy that cute baby Harrier carrier that the Thais had Spain build for them. It was based on the USN's "sea control ship" concept from the 1970s ... ;-)

[RSmithOpt]

I like your take....after all our souther backside (ocean and land) has been hanging in the breeze for a while now. Though, now way we can ever keep every foot covered, just the fact we're there keeps the bad guys guessing.

OK, 'Big John' is good with me....I watched Jackie & Caroline christen her live that day on the tube. Cool....I always had a crush on Caroline as a kid...shsssshhhh!!!

[cva66snipe]

Phildelphia Naval Ship Yard. Clinton mothballed hundreds of ships their during his reign

I don't like Slick one bit. But he had plenty of GOP help to do this including Poppy Bush/Cheney who initially got the ball rolling on wholesale decomms and six years of a GOP majority in both houses under Clinton. You can thank ones like Sen Warner too. I've done the count before and Poppy cost us about as many as Slick. Also Poppy let a carrier or two go which could have been saved. By let go I mean missing S.L.E.P. a mid life overhaul design to see it through the rest of estimated time in service. AMERICA didn't get one and KENNEDY got a botched job due to a yard closure during overhaul IIRC.

We need more ships and more ship builders. We need at least another carrier builder. Only having one is insane. The idea of increasing our forces in the Caribbean is a good one though. We need to re-open Rosie Roads too. Closure was a big mistake IMO.

[cva66snipe]

A big deck CVN isn't needed for this kind of patrol work. Much better idea would be to rotate an LHA/LHD or two through the assignment. Harriers and helos, plus the ability to operate all sorts of watercraft from the well deck, should suffice.

I don't know if this still holds true but the Caribbean Basin has always been a traditional work ups location for CV's. Thirty Days down off GITMO for O.R.E. and INSURV etc usually a few months before deployment. I saw that area at sea about as much as VACAPES.

[tanknetter]

I don't know if this still holds true but the Caribbean Basin has always been a traditional work ups location for CV's. Thirty Days down off GITMO for O.R.E. and INSURV etc usually a few months before deployment. I saw that area at sea about as much as VACAPES.

More recently it was Roosevelt Roads and Vieques (sp?). Not sure where they hold predeployment workups (Vieques having been closed).

There's still little reason to have one of the US's precious big-decks (10 in the deployment rotation, 1 in RCOH) and airwings doing a deployment to the Carib when it's better utilized in the Persian Gulf/IO or WestPac. Unless, of course, the purpose of the deployment is to blow Comrade Hugo off the face of the Earth ;-) .

[PLMerite]

“Why? Are there Nazi U-boats down there again?”

Some are still unaccounted for:

U-Who?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/01/60II/main811960.shtml

[Non-Sequitur]

We need more ships and more ship builders. We need at least another carrier builder.

The only place we're going to find that is Italy, maybe Finland.

We need to re-open Rosie Roads too.

Roosevelt Roads has no purpose so long as Vieques is not the target range. And that's not going to happen.

[Non-Sequitur]

The Kennedy was the one that was supposed to remain in service until 2017 or so, before its sudden retirement. The Kitty Hawk would have needed a major overhaul to have extended its useful life.

The Kitty Hawk did have the major mid-life overhaul, it was the JFK which didn't. Besides, they need to retire the Kitty Hawk to free up an airwing for the GHW Bush which should be commissioning in a couple of years.

[Jim Noble]

Davis emphasized that no new vessels — and no additional budget — would come with the creation of a 4th Fleet.

What a relief!

I was worried for a minute that we might actually DO something to re-establish our naval forces.

But a cushy job and three stars for a time server?

Even Obama would have no trouble with that.

[joe fonebone]

“Sinkin” Sarah....

[Non-Sequitur]

Some mods might be necessary to accommodate that.

Other than shut off the fuel oil refueling system I can't imagine what. The nukes aren't that much larger than the Kennedy was. May have to do some dredging in the channel.

[Non-Sequitur]

Pensacola also used to have a carrier, but more work would probably be needed there.

Pensacola had a training carrier. The Forrestal was the last one. Since then carrier quals have been done with a active duty carrier that spends a few weeks in the area.

You’d probably have to start from scratch at Charleston.

Even if the naval station was still active you wouldn't want to station a carrier there. The station was located miles up the Cooper River. Nasty channel, fast tides, needed to be dredged 365 days a year.

[Non-Sequitur]

OK...I was speculating on the KH, however, will there not most likely be a carrier in that area for air patrol, etc. assigned to the 4th?

Why? Where's the threat coming from?

Those ports not big enough for a Nimitz class or only one carrier per port?

Pennsacola, no. Charleston closed down years ago.

[Sunnyflorida]

Thunderchicken. Sixty from Dixie.