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THE GOP DOESN'T WANT US- SO WHAT'S NEXT?
me | 2/6/2008 | ovrtaxt

Posted on 02/06/2008 3:43:04 AM PST by ovrtaxt

Here's the current state of things, as coldly and accurately as I can portray them:

1> The Dems are rushing headlong into socialism, and possibly something much worse.

2>The GOP leadership has made a decision- namely, that they don't want Conservatives around. Oh, they want us on election day, but after that, “shut up and go stand over there where you won't embarrass us”.

3> We face several national threats. Globalist dilution of our national sovereignty, Radical Islam, a rapidly weakening dollar, Chinese aggression by economic and trade policies, the impending internal losses of vital Constitutional rights, and a general worldwide sentiment of resentment and envy against America. And there's a cruel dagger in our back that's been there for decades, but is now starting to twist- the US economy is staring down the barrel of a Keynesian rifle- the socialist chickens are coming home to roost, and the only thing we get from campaigning politicians is more socialism. Our current debt-based economy is unsustainable. We will be toast if something drastic isn't done, and we won't be able to fight ANY WAR if we can't afford it.

Here's the bitter pill being forced down our throats this morning: WE HAVE NOWHERE TO GO. There's no larger political framework available which will express our desire for freedom, no voice in politics which echoes our heart's desire. We have forums like this, SOME talk radio, and each other. We have a few good people in Congress, here and there. But a national platform, a focused voice to represent Constitutionally limited government, it doesn't exist.

Here's why- many of us are still clinging on to one sorry half-baked liberal candidate or another. Even today, I'm hearing many Freepers stating their continued loyalty to McCain, simply because he isn't Hillary. How much crap will you eat before you start to wonder 'where's the real food'?

It's time to come together and make a common agreement. We must not compromise something so vitally important to the world as the Constitution. Multitudes of enslaved people around the world dream of living the way we do. If we let this slip away, we'll regress to the control freak nightmare that has been the majority of human history.

Remember- the GOP doesn't want us. We need to stick together, however, and decide where to go. A new Conservative leadership is desperately needed, and a new home for Conservative voters is desperately needed.

Suggestions? As for a party apparatus, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Constitution Party. Yes, I know the CP isn't viable right now, but if Conservatives started defecting en masse, it would be. Remember what happened in the 70s- we decided that the GOP could provide our framework. It's taken them 30 years, but the goons who run the party have finally managed to 'extract themselves from our tentacles', at least that's how they probably see it. The current CP would welcome it, since that's who they are anyway.

But political leadership, I have no idea. Who do you like?


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: conservativevote; goingforward; gop; politicalparties; yayanothervanity
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To: Dionysius

I’d love to see it. Slim chance though, but I’d be down with it.


851 posted on 02/08/2008 6:53:53 PM PST by ovrtaxt (The GOP is no place for a nice Conservative like you.)
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To: roamer_1; angkor

Sounds reasonable enough as a start towards a definition, even though I had worked one up earlier that Angkor didn’t even bother to comment on except to claim that I didn’t do it.

When you write, “The nature of Reagan’s compromise was not to take one form over the other, causing any to lose or sacrifice deeply held convictions, “that points out the problem here — socons are being asked to sacrifice deeply held convictions.

But to embrace all three, giving each an equal voice and a place at the table.
***That certainly isn’t the case with socons in the republican party today.

The beauty of the Reagan Coalition is that each faction need only to recognize the needs of the others, campaigning and voting for those who embrace all three forms,and conversely, refusing to support those who are unable to satisfy any one of the three.
***None of the current candidates can claim to embrace all 3 forms, and all of them are unable to satisfy some particular branch of the three. That’s why the coalition is breaking apart.

What do you think of Agent Hank’s question:

A political party should represent a set of ideals. True enough everyone won’t agree at all times. But if my party’s standard bearer holds beliefs that are utterly antithetical to those which attracted me to the party in the first place, why should I support it? To fly the club colors?


852 posted on 02/08/2008 10:04:20 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: Kevmo

I think your Monopoly analogy is great.

Well, I don’t know that I can go with you to the blame part. The coach, the players. I’m more inclined to go with the players, but I definitely see your point.

And, yes, it is a gamble for the guys on the team who want to bail. Actually, IMHO, it’s not a gamble for them so much as a gamble for the country.


853 posted on 02/08/2008 10:19:01 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Kevmo

All the factors you set out were factors. But, again, I don’t see that being the full story.

Do any of those things affect how you vote? I’d bet not.

And I don’t see them really effecting how other conservatives vote either. Rush says “stop listening to the MSM” and I think, what conservative gives a rat’s be-hind about what the MSM says in the first place?

IOW, just by virtue of being conservative, I don’t see how conservatives could fall into the traps you listed. So, IMHO, something else happened.


854 posted on 02/08/2008 10:22:34 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Kevmo
***I think it does. If the justification isn’t strong enough, the maneuver will fail. When the Republicans formed out of the Whig party, the justification was strong, focusing on slavery.

(Sorry I wasn't putting your quotes in my posts previously. That does make it easier, so thanks for doing it and I will from here on out.)

In talking about the justification for bailing on the team, you said "if it's *strong* enough," the manuever could be successful.

Your example of slavery made me think, however, it's more accurate to say if the justification is sufficiently *unifying*, rather than just *strong.*

The issue of slavery transcended a whole bunch of other issues on which the new Republican party might otherwise bust up over. The problem today is that there isn't a sufficiently unifying issue---that's just the way it is. And, as you said, if the justification isn't sufficient---I would say sufficiently unifying---the manuever will be a dismal failure.

855 posted on 02/08/2008 10:27:40 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: ovrtaxt
In the short term, I am voting for Ron Paul when he runs as a third party. He will lose miserably much like Barry Goldwater but he will throw a good scare into the GOP. The point will be made...maybe not right away but the seed will be planted....nominate a Conservative. If none is available at least nominate an eccentric libertarian who will introduce the next generation to the idea of limited government.

In the long term try Conservatism in 2012. It works. If there are any young aspiring public serpents out there like me, I hope you are paying attention. There is a market for conservative ideas. You just need to be able to sell it...and the world will be yours.

Photobucket

856 posted on 02/08/2008 10:30:45 PM PST by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: fightinJAG

All the factors you set out were factors. But, again, I don’t see that being the full story. Do any of those things affect how you vote? I’d bet not.
***Of course not. Those are the factors that a candidate faces in trying to gain the nomination, not the factors that a typical voter considers in a ballot decision.

And I don’t see them really effecting how other conservatives vote either.
***Again, of course not. One has little to do with the other.

Rush says “stop listening to the MSM” and I think, what conservative gives a rat’s be-hind about what the MSM says in the first place?
***The “conservatives” who care what the MSM says are the “electabiityCONs”, the new branch of conservatism that brought us tootyfruityrudy and Romney and of course, McCain. Such conservatives are pretenders, faux conservatives.

IOW, just by virtue of being conservative, I don’t see how conservatives could fall into the traps you listed. So, IMHO, something else happened.
***You’re getting confused between the factors that hold back a candidate from moving forward and the factors that voters consider in choosing a candidate.


857 posted on 02/08/2008 10:31:43 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: Kevmo
***I agree with your analysis. The current situation is more like the Whigs/Republicans than Reagan’s time. But the main point of contention in that fight was slavery; the main point of contention today is ... maybe Right to Life? I’m not quite sure what fuels this internal dispute other than antichristian bigotry. What do you think causes this strife?

I see I just posted your point here in my last post! We agree, then, that the only time in history a new "major" political party with staying power was formed was when there was a sufficiently unifying issue, to wit, slavery.

And there isn't a sufficiently unifying issue among conservatives today. There should be, but there isn't. For example, you suggested maybe being pro-life. To be honest, I see lots and lots of unity on the issue of being pro-life. What I don't see is any unity on the ways to work to advance the cause of life.

Then again, to my way of thinking, there doesn't have to be unity on HOW to advance the cause of life, because there are many different ways we are each called to do this work. But it seems to me there must be unity on that point, but there isn't!

IOW, if there were just unity on the point that there are all kinds of approaches that are worthy and helpful, then there would be room for those approaches and those individuals.

Here's what I mean: say one person who is sincerely pro-life feels called to change hearts and minds by working in counselling, adoption, and so on. That person thinks that work is very important and effective. Another sincerely pro-life person feels very strongly about working to change the law, get a more balanced judiciary and so on. That person thinks that work is very important and effective.

One person may think the President's views on abortion are very consequential for the pro-life movement. Another person may feel the President's views are hardly relevant; that progress will only be made by people changing our culture and hearts.

The reality is that both people are right and both may be doing exactly what they are called to do! Yet too often one denigrates the other and slanders their good-faith efforts as insufficient or misdirected or not as important as their own. That is the overriding reason there is no unity on such a huge issue as abortion.

858 posted on 02/08/2008 10:40:28 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: fightinJAG

The problem today is that there isn’t a sufficiently unifying issue-—that’s just the way it is.
***You’re probably right. The only one that comes close is Right to Life, and it’s not like McCain is like tootyfruityrudy & pro-abortion. Plus, there’s still a chance the staunch prolifer could catch on.

For awhile I thought there might be a perfect storm of Right to Life/WOT/immigration/economic patriotism/Military that would lead folks to consider the best conservative in the race, but I overlooked how heavily infiltrated RINOs have become.


859 posted on 02/08/2008 10:40:55 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: Kevmo
Whigs/Republicans than Reagan’s time. But the main point of contention in that fight was slavery; the main point of contention today is ... maybe Right to Life? I’m not quite sure what fuels this internal dispute other than antichristian bigotry. What do you think causes this strife?

I wanted to address your last point, but forgot in my last post.

I think in that last post I described what I see as the "internal dispute," at least as regards the pro-life movement. People care so much and see so much at stake, I think they just sometimes don't see the bigger picture of how all the little ants working on a project each have their own job to do, which may not make sense at all to someone observing them go about their business.

I honestly do not think it is "anti-Christian bigotry." I think it is more along the lines of "intra-Christian bigotry"!

AGain, most often this is caused in my view because people do care so much about this issue. But just like denominations split over whether one should sit or stand while singing hymns, it's mostly one part of the body of Christ condemning another part for not seeing it their way.

I hasten to add I do believe there is absolute truth. However, I don't see the rancor that pro-life factions have against each other as based on truth.

860 posted on 02/08/2008 10:47:17 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Kevmo

My definition of an anti-religious agenda would be one whose aim was to make it illegal to freely practice one’s religion.

In my view, disagreement with my religious views is not an anti-religious agenda.


861 posted on 02/08/2008 10:50:31 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: fightinJAG

I think your Monopoly analogy is great.
***I’ve been in that position where one player had the natural monopoly and was bleeding us dry. So I proposed to the 3 remaining players that we all pool our resources, throw the dice and whoever wins the die roll wins all the resources, the losers end up with a playing piece and $1. It worked in Monopoly but doesn’t work in the real world. We need some kind of bold strategy that will break the conservative logjam and MSM stranglehold on the process. Debate rules, dates, and who’s invited all need to be determined fairly beforehand, in such a way that the GOP wouldn’t find themselves withdrawing their sponsorship like they did when Hunter was excluded — fat lotta good that did.

One thing to do is my suggestion of an idealogy matrix for FR. We need to smoke out RINOs. It’s okay to have them around but they are not owning up to their intentions; it’s okay to have a bias but it’s not okay to hide it.

Second thing is the order of the primaries should be determined by the percentage of republicans in the last vote. The higher the %pubbie, the sooner the state appears on the primary schedule, with a mix of big & little states and our staunchest republican states get to go FIRST.

Third, the GOP needs to file an official complaint about how the media is affecting the election process with their biased poll results and resulting exclusion from debates based upon such biased polls.
On Poll Results and the End of Conservatism
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1951282/posts

Fourth, Time for the FALCONservatives to assert themselves.
Death of the GOP and the Birth of a New Political Party
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1961828/posts
We need to move forward on this so GOP really gets the message and a chill goes down the spine of GOP leadership.


862 posted on 02/08/2008 11:04:48 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: Kevmo; County Agent Hank Kimball
If some people who join the team reserve the right to quit during the big game, why would those people think the team will want to work with them?

***The problem with your analogy is that the team is working towards a goal that is antithetical to some of the players, i.e. the front line that I keep coming back to.

Please answer Hank’s question:

Hank>>>But if my party’s standard bearer holds beliefs that are utterly antithetical to those which attracted me to the party in the first place, why should I support it?

Kevmo:

I think you and I got this straightened out earlier, but I'll go ahead and answer here, too.

I never said anyone must support the team if for any reason they don't feel they should. It's not relevant to my point to keep pointing out that people who are bailing on the team think they have a good reason to do so.

My point, which I think you agree with to some extent, is that, regardless of what justifies quitting, it's still a gamble for the individual and the country. That's because, just like in football, if some players quit, the team still has to play the game. So it may try to get the players back, it may look for new players, but whatever it does it tries to find a way to win with what it's got.

Interestingly, this thread (link below) about something Rush said illustrates my point perfectly.

Rush made my point a year ago:

RUSH ARCHIVES: This notion that it doesn't matter who wins because the Democrats aren't going to have a big enough majority? That's going to lead to another thing that I will share with you. It's going to lead to the nomination of John McCain for the Republican presidential candidacy. In two years, you same people who will have helped bring about an ascension to power by the Democrats, are going to be so angry -- you're going to be so fed up -- over what they have tried to do, over the things they will maybe have accomplished, that you are going to demand power back, and you will accept anybody that you think has a chance of winning it. And right now, that looks like McCain, above anybody else -- who, I must tell you, is not a conservative. And so what are you probably going to end up doing? You're going to be so frustrated by 2008, and the thought of Hillary Clinton becoming president so obnoxious, so abhorrent; that in 2008 you will flush your precious principles down the drain and elect a Republican, precisely the kind of Republican you think you're running against now -- or you will at least nominate one. Who knows how that election will go? So the very principle that you are fighting here, if you succeed, you will be given a candidate who fits the very thing you're angry about: somebody who's not conservative enough but probably has the best chance of winning.

When we began this conversation, that's what I was addressing: WHY McCain is the nominee. It's not because of anti-Christian bigotry.

It's because conservatives bailed on the party in 2006 and now they're saying they are going to bail again. It's because conservatives barely voted for the more conservatives candidates in the primaries when they had every opportunity to do so.

So the party, which must has a nominee, and which exists for the purpose of winning elections, has no choice (from their point of view) but to try to find a way to win with what they got. And McCain has always said he's the man to bring in Independents and Reagan Democrats---IOW, he's the man who can provide some replacement players so the party can try to win this thing.

As Rush said:

In two years, you same people who will have helped bring about an ascension to power by the Democrats, are going to be so angry -- you're going to be so fed up -- over what they have tried to do, over the things they will maybe have accomplished, that you are going to demand power back, and you will accept anybody that you think has a chance of winning it.

This is WHY McCain is the nominee. Political parties exist to win. When the conservative way doesn't deliver, then the party (meaning: the majority of people voting in the primaries and lending support to candidates) does something else. That's all.

Rush goes on to make a point about voting for congresscritters, not president. But his analysis (and my analogy) is certainly something to think about.

Again, quitting may be justified, but the risk that the team will truly move on without those who quit (which would not be good for the country, IMHO) is real. That's all. Whether it's the coach or the players to blame, that's all.

Rush Prediction on McCain

863 posted on 02/08/2008 11:14:55 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: fightinJAG

My definition of an anti-religious agenda would be one whose aim was to make it illegal to freely practice one’s religion. In my view, disagreement with my religious views is not an anti-religious agenda.
***Sounds good enough. What we see in the R party now is an infiltration of antichristian bigots who hide behind various code words like “separation of church & state” and that kind of thing as they push their anti-religion agenda. They rarely own up to their bias, so it is, once again, a hidden agenda.

You can disagree over religious views till the cows come home, both sides are protected under the first amendment. But the antireligionists take one step further and attempt to keep religiosity out of politics under various thin guises, just as you have seen on this thread.


864 posted on 02/08/2008 11:19:40 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: Kevmo; County Agent Hank Kimball
If some people who join the team reserve the right to quit during the big game, why would those people think the team will want to work with them?

***The problem with your analogy is that the team is working towards a goal that is antithetical to some of the players, i.e. the front line that I keep coming back to.

One last point on this, Kevmo.

Again, the players may be perfectly justified in quitting. However, that doesn't mean a hill of beans to the team. At some point, the team says "we're not going to rely on them and get in this lurch ever again."

You are saying "BUT --- BUT --- the quarterback walked off the field because the game plan was 'antithetical' to his personal goals."

I am saying the team says: "I don't care what the quarterback's problem was, you don't walk out during a big game; you handle your disagreement some other way, some other time. And I'll be damned if I or any other coach in this league wants to try to win a game with a quarterback who may get up and quit at any time."

That's just how a team would react, and at some point that's how a political party is going to react, especially to players who aren't delivering (votes) anyway.

I agree with Rush that we're in this situation in large part because conservatives quit the team in 2006, and were a nonfactor the only place it counts---the ballot box---in the primaries, leading to McCain. In my view, quitting last time brought nothing but a worse situation for conservatives, and I think there's a genuine risk that the same thing could happen in this election.

865 posted on 02/08/2008 11:26:41 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: shrinkermd
He now owes you little if anything.

Apparently, this fact has been little noticed.

In fact, McCain won precisely *because* he owes conservatives nothing.

He consistently has advertised himself as the man who can win with Independents and Reagan Democrats. That particular skill became a premium after conservatives sat out the 2006 election, were a non-factor in the primaries, and early on began declaring that they would NOT vote for this guy, that guy and the other guy.

Since political parties exist for the purpose of winning elections, of course the majority of people joined in that enterprise will look for someone who possibly can win the election. Some people have a problem with that, but it is what it is.

866 posted on 02/08/2008 11:36:54 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: MHGinTN
McCain won because conservatives sat out in 2006, were a non-factor in the primaries, and then kept saying they would bail again in the general.

So I see McCain attempting to unify the party and bring at least some of those people back. But I also see the signs everywhere that the whole motivation for backing him was the chance that, by attracting Independents and Reagan Democrats, he could win despite those who choose to bail.

And I don't know what else the majority of Republicans could have done. Not enough conservatives supported the more conservative candidates; they couldn't even bump them out of the bottom single digits. With conservatives failing to deliver in the primaries, the party had to move on and try to find a way to win anyway.

I don't think anyone in the field would have "excited" conservatives or Republicans, or led to really good turn-out. So it's no wonder the rank and file turned to someone who might "excite" Independents and Reagan Democrats, because that's going to be critical to the party's chances.

It's a risky strategy, in my view. But, again, what practical choice did the party have when conservative candidates bombed?

867 posted on 02/08/2008 11:47:33 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Dionysius

If conservatives were excited enough about Thompson and Hunter to “draft” them, why didn’t they just vote for them in the primaries?


868 posted on 02/08/2008 11:48:44 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Kevmo; County Agent Hank Kimball
A political party should represent a set of ideals. True enough everyone won’t agree at all times. But if my party’s standard bearer holds beliefs that are utterly antithetical to those which attracted me to the party in the first place, why should I support it? To fly the club colors?

Kevmo, you keep asking this question and I keep answering it! Anyway, here's one more thought on it:

Again, to reiterate my basic answer, I never said you should support it. Do what you think is right.

That said, I think it grossly denigrates the reality of what is occurring on Election Day to flip off voting for the President of the United States as "flying the club's colors."

I'm quite sure you didn't mean it that way, but I do want to point out that such attitude is truly unwise.

As I see it, we vote for one purpose only: to hire a President and Commander in Chief that is the best *of the available and viable* alternatives FOR THE COUNTRY.

If a person genuinely feels that bailing on Election Day is *best for the country,* well, okay. But that's the question.

Why should you support any candidate, ever? Because we each have a responsibility to get the best result for the country that we can get.

Of course, reasonable people can disagree as to what the "best result" is. But that is a complex and multi-dimensional inquiry. It is not as simple as "do I agree with this one man whose name happens to be on the top of the ticket?".

869 posted on 02/08/2008 11:59:53 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: ZULU

You need only look up my profile.


870 posted on 02/09/2008 12:21:00 AM PST by 60Gunner (This is an Emergency Room. You want the family package? Take your seven anchor babies to Disneyland.)
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To: fightinJAG

Thanks for responding. It is kind of a complicated thing. It bothers me when RINOs tell us that we have to betray our principles and vote for someone who’s antithetical to our positions.


871 posted on 02/09/2008 8:21:43 AM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: fightinJAG

I am saying the team says: “I don’t care what the quarterback’s problem was, you don’t walk out during a big game; you handle your disagreement some other way, some other time. And I’ll be damned if I or any other coach in this league wants to try to win a game with a quarterback who may get up and quit at any time.”
***This happened before, when the Republicans split off from the Whigs. I really don’t care what the Whigs had to say at that point, they were simply wrong. And since that time, most people say, “who were the Whigs”? In other words, it’s the END of that team. So your team is acting like the crew of the Titanic, rearranging deck chairs when the ship goes down. So, you can keep making this look like the team is changing out one or 2 players, but in reality this would be a death blow to the team. So you need to adjust your analogy to the point where you start to see it that way, and then process accordingly.

I don’t know if the Republican party just hit an iceberg. Most of the passengers on the Titanic didn’t know in the beginning, only a select few were encouraged to get onto the half-empty lifeboats. Basically, we hit something in the night, the captain isn’t telling us what we hit because he thinks that by keeping all of us on the boat he can maintain the facade of grandiosity.


872 posted on 02/09/2008 8:34:53 AM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: fightinJAG

I guarantee they’d be damned more excited now, given the distressing turn of events. Remember, hindsight is 20/20.


873 posted on 02/09/2008 8:54:06 AM PST by Dionysius (Jingoism is no vice.)
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To: Dionysius
Draft Thompson and Hunter and pray for a plurality in the fall. Hey! I’m serious!

Why could a ticket which did not attract 15% OF THE REPUBLICANS gain a plurality when those Republicans are only 1/3 of the voters?

YOU may be serious, but your comment isn't.

874 posted on 02/09/2008 9:27:39 AM PST by Jim Noble (Look out kid, they keep it all hid)
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To: Jim Noble

Because, old chap, these were the only true conservatives on the ticket. You seem to take comfort in a race between McPain and Hilobama.


875 posted on 02/09/2008 11:31:17 AM PST by Dionysius (Jingoism is no vice.)
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To: Kevmo
socons are being asked to sacrifice deeply held convictions.

I see that too, but we have to be careful ourselves as well. Regarding the primary (and I know you to be an Hunterite) the candidate the SoCons prefer (Huckabee) is equally as unpalatable as the others... So there is fault enough to go around.

***None of the current candidates can claim to embrace all 3 forms, and all of them are unable to satisfy some particular branch of the three. That’s why the coalition is breaking apart.

DEFCON
MCCAIN=Only positive attribute is strong defense, military experience

FICON
ROMNEY=Only positive attribute is management of economy

SOCON
HUCKABEE= Only positive attribute is strong Cristian credentials.

Split right down factional lines. The product of "electability" overriding principle.

What do you think of Agent Hank’s question:

A political party should represent a set of ideals. True enough everyone won’t agree at all times. But if my party’s standard bearer holds beliefs that are utterly antithetical to those which attracted me to the party in the first place, why should I support it? To fly the club colors?

Quite obviously, one should not support that which represents one's antithesis. But in the midst of all the talk of new parties and etc, I will make a prediction that will be stunning to some:

Any Conservative party that attempts to upend the Republicans will surely fail unless it is able to serve all three conservative factions in the same fashion as Reagan's Coalition. The three "kinds" are tied at the hip, because all else is certainly against us.

876 posted on 02/09/2008 12:03:51 PM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more.)
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To: TennTuxedo

“Can you say, “Welcome President Hillary”?
Its going to happen.”

Yawn. And would it be much different after 4 years of Pres., McCain? Doubtful. Well, maybe the White House would still have all it’s silver ware....


877 posted on 02/09/2008 12:11:13 PM PST by MrLee (Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalyim!! God bless Eretz Israel.)
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To: fightinJAG; Kevmo; County Agent Hank Kimball
Of course, reasonable people can disagree as to what the "best result" is. But that is a complex and multi-dimensional inquiry. It is not as simple as "do I agree with this one man whose name happens to be on the top of the ticket?".

But to allow the party, by way of one's acquiescence, to continue to drift closer to the rocks of liberalism is a markedly destructive form of negligence. A form of suicide by apathy, as it were.

It is the "pulling for the big "R"" that has gotten us where we are, settling for the moderate hawkers of "compassionate conservatism" rather than the truth of Reagan Conservatism.

There has been a saying going around this board as of late: "The perfect is the enemy of the good". There could not be anything further from the truth, and especially so when considering Conservatism. We cannot win with "good 'nuff", as has been so perfectly demonstrated by this primary cycle.

878 posted on 02/09/2008 4:14:46 PM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more.)
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To: Kevmo

You may be right. But the point is, it could go either way, don’t you think?

It could be that the team crashes and goes away. But it could also be that the team adapts, improvises and overcomes. That it moves on and more or less permanently shuts out those who quit.

If the latter happened-—and it likely will if, for example, McCain were to win with Independents and Reagan Democrats and over the loud objections of conservatives-—those who walked will be marginalized for good, just like strikers who are replaced by new employees.

That would not be a good thing for our country, if it were to come about. And the substantial risk exists.


879 posted on 02/09/2008 5:38:17 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Dionysius

Did conservatives not realize that if they didn’t vote for a conservative candidate that a non-conservative candidate would get the nomination?


880 posted on 02/09/2008 5:39:16 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: Dionysius; Jim Noble

The broccoli lovers never order the broccoli, so the owner of the restaurant takes it off the menu.

Then the broccoli lovers complain, “There’s no broccoli on the menu! I’ve had it with this place! I’m going to get with other broccoli lovers and force you to put broccoli back on the menu!”

The owner says, “Uh, yeah, right. Knock yourself out.”

In the meantime, he figures out what the patrons he has left want on the menu and starts serving that.

It is what it is.


881 posted on 02/09/2008 5:45:41 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: roamer_1
We cannot win with "good 'nuff", as has been so perfectly demonstrated by this primary cycle.

Besides, perhaps, Reagan (and I'm sure some around here will find a way to debate that), can you provide examples where we DIDN'T win with "good 'nuff"?

882 posted on 02/09/2008 5:48:52 PM PST by fightinJAG (Rush was right when he used to say: "You NEVER win by losing.")
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To: fightinJAG
Besides, perhaps, Reagan (and I'm sure some around here will find a way to debate that), can you provide examples where we DIDN'T win with "good 'nuff"?

Sure. Pick any one of the Conservative Congressmen and Senators that are currently sitting representatives. It is no different when considering the presidency.

In fact, I would suggest that the presidential election is more dire, as people held their noses through GHWB, Dole, and at least the 2nd term of GWB... a true Conservative is what they want, and they (all three factions) are very insistent at this point.

883 posted on 02/09/2008 6:09:38 PM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more.)
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To: fightinJAG; Kevmo
If the latter happened-—and it likely will if, for example, McCain were to win with Independents and Reagan Democrats and over the loud objections of conservatives- [...] That would not be a good thing for our country, if it were to come about. And the substantial risk exists.

It is hardly likely. Reagan Democrats are largely SoCons, who are Republicans now, and they are dead set against McCain. But even so, Independents and (what is left of) Reagan Democrats together are dwarfed by the Conservatives.

The only possibility is to split the Conservatives, which seems to be the effort, tossing the SoCons and the libertarian faction of the FiCons under the bus, trying to form a coalition between the rest of the FiCons, DefCons, and the RINO business elites. It is doomed to fail.

884 posted on 02/09/2008 6:23:03 PM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more.)
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To: roamer_1
Any Conservative party that attempts to upend the Republicans will surely fail unless it is able to serve all three conservative factions in the same fashion as Reagan's Coalition.

Ronald Reagan would not have been elected dogcatcher with the votes of Republicans.

NOT ONLY did Reagan unify the party, he grew his movement by leaps and bounds until it included millions of independents and Democrats.

A lot of those here are in a race to see how small they can make their movement. Huge segments of the Reagan coalition have been driven away, or scared away.

The loathing that Reagan Democrats, in particular, have for "Christian" voters is unbelievable, if you have never seen it.

Reagan was not ONLY about conservatism, and no movement which will succeed in duplicating his majorities will ever work without his skill at bringing over voters from the other side.

885 posted on 02/09/2008 7:07:44 PM PST by Jim Noble (Look out kid, they keep it all hid)
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To: Jim Noble
Ronald Reagan would not have been elected dogcatcher with the votes of Republicans.

Well, Duh. He was running as a Republican.

NOT ONLY did Reagan unify the party, he grew his movement by leaps and bounds until it included millions of independents and Democrats.

Yes. Now known as (primarily) the SoCon branch of Conservatism.

A lot of those here are in a race to see how small they can make their movement. Huge segments of the Reagan coalition have been driven away, or scared away.

TRUE. Beginning with the SoCons (Christians) and libertarians (as usual).

The loathing that Reagan Democrats, in particular, have for "Christian" voters is unbelievable, if you have never seen it.

That is because most that are left on the Democrat side are anti-Christian, or anti-Life, as a general rule.

Reagan was not ONLY about conservatism, and no movement which will succeed in duplicating his majorities will ever work without his skill at bringing over voters from the other side.

While Reagan's skill is not to be diminished, what rang like a bell was that he meant what he was saying, and what he said made sense. It was TRUE. And for the most part, what he spoke of is now, or always was, ensconced in the principles of Conservatism.

886 posted on 02/09/2008 8:06:44 PM PST by roamer_1 (Conservative always, Republican no more.)
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To: fightinJAG; Jim Noble

Romney, Thompson and Huck split the conservative vote while the “big tent” Republicans voted for McCain. Seems to me Huck was never more than a stalking horse for McCain, running for VP. Conservatives were aced out brilliantly. Like me, I’m sure conservatives wish that they had settled on one candidate early on, but if wishes were horses, etc. Now we are faced with four years from which the conservative movement (and the country) will never recover and drastic measures are called for. Through amnesty and further loosening already lax voter requirements, demographics will forever be shifted to the left in the aftermath of an election which some intend as an object lesson. Sheer folly!


887 posted on 02/09/2008 8:11:52 PM PST by Dionysius (Jingoism is no vice.)
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To: fightinJAG

But the point is, it could go either way, don’t you think?
***Yes, it could.

If the latter happened-—and it likely will if, for example, McCain were to win with Independents and Reagan Democrats and over the loud objections of conservatives-—those who walked will be marginalized for good, just like strikers who are replaced by new employees.
***So if it did happen that way, and the great bulk of social conservatives + some Fiscons (I doubt Defcons — McCain’s strength) then what you have is the heart & soul of the republican party being torn away. It happened with the Whigs and they did not survive. I do not think the R party would survive. The possibility of Republican survival is in direct proportion to how many conservatives stay in the tent. Of course, for this upcoming election, if even a relatively small portion of conservatives don’t vote for McCainiack, the election is lost, and I view that as about an 85% certainty.


888 posted on 02/09/2008 9:07:23 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: fightinJAG

I notice that your analogies always fall about 3 bricks shy of a full load. In this case, with Broccoli, it has always been the Broccoli lovers that kept the business thriving but the owner hates Broccoli and tells them they need to start ordering other things on the menu because, after all, he trained at super-duper-chef-school and knows what he’s talking about.


889 posted on 02/09/2008 9:10:58 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: fightinJAG

can you provide examples where we DIDN’T win with “good ‘nuff”?

***Bob Dole.


890 posted on 02/09/2008 9:12:16 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: ovrtaxt

couple of thoughts-

A brokered convention *may* lead to a palatable ticket this election - it is worth a try

long term- the GOP has been compromised. it has a majority that is interested in government careers and government for the politicians. I think it (the GOP) is past saving. So, in states where the democrat is the favorite in the general election I think conservatives should vote for a strong conservative party in the future (vote on principles). This could set the stage in the next election for a viable third party that is truly conservative - at no cost.

Next - if the nomination goes to McCain, all conservatives should form/associate a truly conservative party. It is really past time there is already ample evidence that the dems and repubs have colluded to create a political class, and no American should tolerate that for one second.

Regards,


891 posted on 02/10/2008 5:28:17 PM PST by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: Triple

Absolutely agree. Third party is making more and more sense, as the GOP drifts ever leftward.

The trick is going to be finding a leader to rally around. The demand is there, so certainly some likeminded candidate will be tempted to throw down. If he’s the right man, he’ll get traction.

Santorum has been mentioned numerous times in fact. I’d consider that...


892 posted on 02/10/2008 6:17:31 PM PST by ovrtaxt (Member of the irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.)
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