Posted on 02/08/2008 7:25:41 PM PST by 49th
Heaven may be described in many ways.
Some may even find themselves there when reality becomes a very unanticipated event.
For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFisA_csVE
The LDS Church teaches that the “rock” spoken of is revelation, with Christ advising Peter that revelation from God informed him that Jesus was the Christ and that upon that rock would Christ build his church.
Some ideas came into Christianity from Greek thought at a very early stage. For instance, the idea of the Logos, or of Christ as the Word of God, is found in the opening verse of the Gospel of John.
The immortality of the soul is not so obviously stated in the Bible as the resurrection of the body, but belief in this doctrine goes back to the very early days of the Church.
For Catholics, it’s not a problem. For Protestants, there is always more room for dispute about such matters.
Actually this doctrine arises in the history of Papal Infalibility. The basic teaching, of course, is that the Pope will not formally promulgate false doctrine. He may be an evil and sinful man, he may be condemned to hell, he may do unwise things and lead the Church in unwise directions, but he will not step over that line into promulgating heresy.
Twice in history a pope came close to losing it. Once, when an Arian bishop was named pope, but then seems to have changed his mind and refrained from promoting Arian doctrine, despite pressure from the Emperor. The second time when a late medieval pope was persuaded by the Spiritual Franciscans, a branch of the order that went astray, that the soul was not immortal. He was about to say as much when an emergency team from the Univesity of Paris persuaded him not to. So, yes, the doctrine of the immortality of the soul was once in doubt, and was not formally defined until late—though widely believed in from earliest days. But it didn’t happen. The decision went the other way.
I’m a bit confused about Heaven vs. the concept of the New Jerusalem coming down to make this HQ.
Which is it?
Of course I am speaking from a purely biblical perspective. Although it can be helpful at times, I don't hold tradition to be authoritative. As far as the doctrine of the immortal soul, it goes back even further than most people know.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Certainly one of the biblical sources of the doctrine of Purgatory is the numerous places that speak of purgation by fire, the basic metaphor of refining ore and burning away the dross to produce pure gold.
Luther introduced the idea of grace or faith as a kind of covering cloak that conceals or covers sins still within when an individual goes to Judgment. But that has never seemed satisfactory to me. No impurities can stand in the presence of God, so they must be burned away. Otherwise, since all men are sinful, no one could be in the presence of God.
Out of body experiences are very interesting, although something I would reserve judgment on, as you appear to do. If you are interested, I would recommend a wonderful and powerful novel by Connie Willis, called “Passage.” I put Willis up in the first ranks of modern novelists, and this one is her strongest of all. Curiously, you will find it in the science fiction section of book stores, but it’s one of those rare SF books that are accessible to people who don’t like the genre.
Curiously, Catholic teaching is that the soul is an immortal spirit, but also that “The soul is the form of the body,” essentially an Aristotelian formulation (form and matter). The soul is both at once.
The "fall" is still an interpretation. Take science out of the equation and you have other spiritual interpretations as well. Not everyone is onboard with original sin and the creation "groaning".
Not a matter of agreeing with me.
In their initial time of creation, there was no sickness...No death...No pain...They did not have to work for food and shelter...They didn't even know what evil was...
God obviously created with the potential for evil otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Isaiah says God created evil as well.
Jesus said to the Good Thief on the cross next to Him, “Tonight you will be with me in Paradise.” So this and other passages led to the traditional belief that the soul after death goes directly to God for individual judgment, and then will reunite with the resurrected body at the Last Judgment. Those are the teachings of the Fathers, the early Creeds, and the Catholic Church, as well as Protestants who still read their Bibles.
It is? I thought RCC still dogma’s that the soul goes to purgatory first? Not trying to flame you just curious if there’s something I’m missing?
And yes, there are still a few of us (I’m conservative Lutheran) who “read our Bible’s” ;-) I try to read everyday at least some lesson to help keep me from being overwhelmed by all the world tempts us with everyday...
Blessings in Christ to you!
I think plenty of people understand the Bible. When one devotes the time to read consistently the themes of scripture jump off the pages and into one’s soul...EVERYONE should read scripture more whether RCC, Orthodox or whatever you want ot call the rest of us...
According to the Church, after death there is a particular (or individual) judgment. Where that takes place isn’t specified. Since God is omnipresent it doesn’t require the soul to meet Him in Heaven.
Then some few souls go straight to Heaven (the saints). Probably most go to Purgatory. And some go straight to Hell.
Respectfully asked...
How can the saints go straight to Heaven if they are not named “saints” for at least 5 years after their death (that is the current period of time necessary to be declared a saint, correct?)
Just curious how this is reconciled...Is that saints in the eyes of God or the Church?
Thank you
Not being a cleric, I’m guessing here - but I assume that the philosophy would be that God’s recognition of ‘sainthood’ would be a) faster and b) more accurate than the churches. I think that what the church is doing when the elevate someone to sainthood is recognizing something that God has already done, through individual. Kind of like a posthumous Medal of Honor.
I believe the teaching of the Church is that there are numerous unknown saints.
Saints don’t need to wait before the Church pronounces them saints before entering heaven. The elaborate process of beatification is just to ensure that no one is officially declared a saint who is not.
For instance, I privately think that my Aunt was a saint—and a cardinal who attended her funeral nearly said as much to me—but unofficially. (What he said was that she was one of the two or three most extraordinary people he had known, and he knew Mother Teresa.) It’s my private opinion, in other words, and maybe his, but there was no attempt to take it further.
But God doesn’t need to wait to welcome martyrs and saints into heaven. When the first Saint of the Church, Stephen, is stoned to death in the Book of Acts, heaven opens and welcomes him in. It’s just that the Church needs to be very careful not to hold people up for admiration if there might be something wrong with them, hidden away somewhere in their lives, that would prevent them from being good examples for the faithful.
Agreed. God created all, and gave license to choose which resulted in evil.
To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord” (2 Cor.5). It doesn’t say is “to be waiting to be with the Lord”.
Read the New Testament... all born-again believers are called saints.
Of course, the question might be whether being absent from the body references abstaining from temporal or worldly things, as opposed to instruction on the status of a disembodied spirit.
Whatever. Evil was there for the choosing, So God, as written in Isaiah, created evil. However you need to process it is fine with me.
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