Is Paradise Worth Fighting For? (A vanity)

Horse's Mouth ^ | February 21, 2008 | Troubling Times

[Troubling Times]

Troubling Times

If FreeRepublic stands for America, the real Anerica where the Constitution means something, where you have the right to be let alone in peace as a law-abiding citizen, where you have a right to defend yourself and your family then I need and beg for your help. Please ping any ping lists that apply.

I’m posting as a newbie – I signed up in November 2000. I probably started lurking in late 1998. Before I post I’m alerting an Admin with my one and only original handle of this upcoming post to establish my bonafides. At first I thought “Finally! – a Breaking News post! and was going to sign my real name as the author of this post however I decided to be a little more discrete. I don’t want everything I’ve ever said on FR related to this post by whoever. Lord knows my attorney would not like this no matter how I post it.

This post is going to go on and on and on as I flesh out the bare bones in posts to this thread. It is not just about me and my family its about America where we are now, what we have lost - my family and I had our paradise stolen from us but we're going to get it back. I know we can do it with your help.

First some quick details and then help from the best and the brightest. Please!!

I'm 53, I could be a California attorney but I quit because I didn't like working with the people I had to work with - lawyers. ;-) I've been an independent computer consultant for 20 + years - Now I'm semi-retired but working on lots of projects. My wife found our paradise in September of 1993. It was on the edge of a park in a wooded area right in the middle of a small city in the middle of a big city.

I'm licensed CWP in FL and all states with reciprocity since March 2007. Yep. A newbie CWP.

I was attacked in the place I figured if I was attacked at all, that would be the place. My attacker got his story in first, before I got to outline my side to the police I was hammered into the ground by some of our finest and aside from numerous "Shut ups" I never got the opportunity to give my side. After they read me my rights - that was after 5+ minutes being tortured on the ground. They said “You gonna tell us what happened? – I lawyered up.

I was arrested in my backyard – actually the park behind my house where they put in the dogpark up against my property line in back. Two dog parks. The little dog park is on my property line. The big dog park is a little further away. My lawsuit envisions closing the park immediately with a temporary injunction pending resolution of my suit. Actions: Nuisance, Taking, emotional distress, etc. It’s a long story. I need to add on but can’t put money into a disaster. The only people I might attract as buyers would be deaf dog lovers looking for a fixer-upper. Sigh.

Nutshell: As I was leaving the racquetball courts to open up the house for my daughter (she had no key) I called out to a father and daughter pair that had just arrived: “S’cuse me – we’re taking off – you can use our court its drier and cleaner …” They didn’t seem to hear so just as he was rounding the corner about to disappear from view I called out a little louder “Sir?” That’s when he spun around screaming and charging directly towards me from about 35 feet away. I was attacked out of the blue, I carry all the time, I was forced to draw my Springfield XD .40 and rack a round.

Surprised the crap out of the gentleman charging me saying “Do you think I’m stupid? Are you calling me stupid? You know what I think I’m gonna do? I think I’m going to beat the hell out of you!” As I was armed, I could not risk a fight, a wrestling match, nothing. He was attacking me. Out of the blue charging me screaming. I’d racked the round with him within 10 feet of me – like lightning. With the muzzle pointed at the ground I loudly said “That would be a very bad idea!” He stopped dead in his tracks. He said “You’re in trouble now, turned and as he was hustling away he said “There‘s a sheriff right over there and I’m going to get him!”

One point before I forget – I probably could have easily won the fight but I had no choice – I was carrying.

I sent my kids home – I didn’t know whether there was a sheriff there or several of his buddies might be coming back after me – in the dark. Instead, I called in the perp’s plate and description, told them I’d been attacked and forced to draw my weapon, that no shots had been fired that the perp had left the area saying he was going for a sheriff. I led the to me via my cell call. As they approached me from all sides I said “I’m talking to 911 …” – someone off to the side said “We’re 911 – hit your knees” – as I complied with my cell in my left hand and both hands up they hit me from behind. Every piece of me had a peace officer on it. Two with both arms behind my back pressed up into the breaking position – two others = it seemed – maybe the same two also lifting up at the elbows for an eternity. Long enough for me to try to explain. I was attacked. I’m the CWP holder, you’re purposely hurting me! “Shut up – shut up – cooperate!” is all I get back More on legs, cheek crunched into the ground by another. I am doing all I can to cooperate. Absolutely no resistance whatsoever. I’m pleading with them to just cuff me. Even after I was cuffed – still being held down at every extremity one deputy said “Cooperate or next we ‘taze you!” I swear I was completely in fear for my life. I still am. Where I am – I’m a sitting duck.

Funny thing – my attacker got me far worse than he could have done by himself. The deputies administered a professional beating (only a few marks – it was the dropped keee into my back that gave me pain even breathing for 2 months) for him. He’s got a record. I’m squeaky clean with a CWP. I’m facing jail and the he’s the victim. Big problem. He was with his 11-14year old daughter when he attacked me. She tells the cops that I was the somehow the aggressor. She is lying and for the record when the Dad spun around and started shouting and charging me, she was gone behind the raquetball court sidewall, She was never in danger. All 3 of my kids had been sent home.

The cops took their story and came after me. Lots more details but I simply have to get this out.

I’m innocent. I was attacked, I defended myself and my family. No one was hurt. I’d do the same thing tomorrow except for one thing – I should have just gone home with my family and called 911 from there. Sigh. This whole thing is in the context of the city putting the dogpark in my backyard and my plans to close it as a nuisance. Fighting City Hall. I know, its not recommended.

More will come later but if I don't post this now, I'll get sidetracked by the many pressing issues.

Right now today - the state attorney says if I plead to an “unlawful display of a weapon” misdemeanor and a year’s probation that would be that plus court costs of course, otherwise it’s a `minimum mandatory 3 years for aggravated assault with a gun – no time off for nothing. Oh, if I plead my attorney says I’d have to give up my guns for the probation period and my CWP is forfeit/gone for three years minimum. Even now they have my permit and gun.

Help! For now, ping anyone you trust that maybe can advise or assist me and my family. Countless issues: . 2nd Amendment, property rights, privacy rights, equal protection (that will be our savior),.a dangerous world, a man and his family robbed of their peace and privacy, facing state prison with the hard-timers.

Publicity may be important soon but not immediately – let’s keep this low-key for now.

Thanks in advance, Its late – I may hang around for a few posts to see who’s up but boy I’m tired. And scared. So’s my Family. I will be around in the days to come. Please help me get our lives back and ideally keep my red white and blue butt out of prison.

Thanks again, really.

Troubling Times

[Troubling Times]

Go easy - I can't get it all out in one post. Questions welcome. And no I'm not going to plead - I have a plan! This is part of it. ;-)

[Troubling Times]

Ping! ;-)

[Cindy]

If you’re concerned with your situation, get legal advice from a licensed attorney.

[Troubling Times]

Gal, we’ve crossed trails lots of times( I’m in your ping list!) - I’m going to need some dog-lover support and input too on the dogpark in my backyard issues! My beloved 11 year old cattledog pup is dying - the vet gives him a week or two max - lymphosarcoma? When it rains ...
TT (formerly xxxx) ;-)

[tx_eggman]

If you’re concerned with your situation, get legal advice from a licensed attorney.

if I plead my attorney says I’d have to give up my guns for the probation period and my CWP is forfeit/gone for three years minimum.

Sounds like he already has

[Cindy]

Yes, but he still seems to be concerned with several issues; so my post still stands as written.

Thank you for your feedback, tx_eggman.

[Troubling Times]

Thanks - I've had one from early on supposedly working to avoid any charges but he's just painting by the numbers and his efforts leave me with two bad choices.

Plead to a misdemeanor, lose, my CWP, and a year's probation or take a chance with a jury trial and the additional expense of the trial itself with a possible 3 year stint in state prison for daring not to plead.

They even have a term for it: a "Bests Interests" plea - its in your best interests to shut up about that "but I'm innocent" crap, plead guilty and take it or we'll really hammer you with the Ag assault. charges. ;-(

[XR7]

Do not fret because of evil men
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Trust in the LORD and do good;
dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.

Delight yourself in the LORD
and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Commit your way to the LORD;
trust in him and he will do this:

He will make your righteousness shine like the dawn,
the justice of your cause like the noonday sun.

Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him;
do not fret when men succeed in their ways,
when they carry out their wicked schemes.

Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;
do not fret—it leads only to evil.

For evil men will be cut off,
but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.

A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.

But the meek will inherit the land
and enjoy great peace.

The wicked plot against the righteous
and gnash their teeth at them;
but the Lord laughs at the wicked,
for he knows their day is coming.

The wicked draw the sword
and bend the bow
to bring down the poor and needy,
to slay those whose ways are upright.

But their swords will pierce their own hearts,
and their bows will be broken.

Better the little that the righteous have
than the wealth of many wicked;
for the power of the wicked will be broken,
but the LORD upholds the righteous.

The days of the blameless are known to the LORD,
and their inheritance will endure forever.

In times of disaster they will not wither;
in days of famine they will enjoy plenty.

But the wicked will perish:
The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields,
they will vanish—vanish like smoke.

The wicked borrow and do not repay,
but the righteous give generously;
those the LORD blesses will inherit the land,
but those he curses will be cut off.

If the LORD delights in a man’s way,
he makes his steps firm;
though he stumble, he will not fall,
for the LORD upholds him with his hand.

I was young and now I am old,
yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken
or their children begging bread.

They are always generous and lend freely;
their children will be blessed.

Turn from evil and do good;
then you will dwell in the land forever.

For the LORD loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.
They will be protected forever,
but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.

The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom,
and his tongue speaks what is just.

The law of his God is in his heart;
his feet do not slip.

The wicked lie in wait for the righteous,
seeking their very lives;
but the LORD will not leave them in their power
or let them be condemned when brought to trial.

Wait for the LORD
and keep his way.
He will exalt you to inherit the land;
when the wicked are cut off, you will see it.

I have seen a wicked and ruthless man
flourishing like a green tree in its native soil,
but he soon passed away and was no more;
though I looked for him, he could not be found.

Consider the blameless, observe the upright;
there is a future [b] for the man of peace.

But all sinners will be destroyed;
the future [c] of the wicked will be cut off.

The salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD;
he is their stronghold in time of trouble.

The LORD helps them and delivers them;
he delivers them from the wicked and saves them,
because they take refuge in him.

— Psalm 37

[Troubling Times]

Thanks Tex. There really is a lot there and a bit convoluted so I can see how Cindy missed that - I held off asking for help here until it looked like I was sunk already ... hope its not too late for some constructive input ;-)

[Cindy]

I didn’t miss it.
Read my last post.

[Troubling Times]

Bless you!

---

I pray for others - thanks for including me in yours. :-)

[Jet Jaguar]

Get a lawyer who specializes in RKBA. You should know someone who can refer you to a good one.

[JDoutrider]

Did the perp coming after you have anything that could be used as a weapon against you?

[Troubling Times]

Thanks - I’m calling the guy who wrote the book later in the AM. - John Gutmacher, Esq. _ Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership - 6th Edition. ;-)

[Jet Jaguar]

That is a sound plan.

[Troubling Times]

Did the perp coming after you have anything that could be used as a weapon against you?

---

Nothing that I could see.

In my mind when a stranger is charging me with only seconds to react I can't take a chance that he's not a karate expert ready to hit me with his single, practiced and perfected "death blow".

[Who dat?]

No “constructive input” here. But some people may be reading this thread that aren’t in the jam you’re in and they may find the following site helpful:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

I have no relationship with the site other than occasionally reading through it.

The guy has a legitimate point – if you end up using lethal force (whether you’re successful or not) it is likely to fundamentally change your life.

I can come up with any number of people that were perfectly within the law and perfectly within their rights (or so they thought) that ended up losing their job, their home, their assets and their family because they killed or injured someone while “defending themselves.”

That is the world you live in. Good luck.

[gusopol3]

lf the only “witness” is his 12 year old daughter, at least take it up to the a.m. of a trial, depose her and all the rest.

[ovrtaxt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O04iVMaflYY

[Felis_irritable]

I’m sorry I have no constructive input re: help, but thank you for having the courage to post your story. It gives me, at least, and maybe others another angle on RKBA and might alter my thought processes in a similar situation. I find the way the cops treated you like dirt interesting, but I confess I’m not surprised.

I will post again if I get a bright idea.

[Pearls Before Swine]

He’s got a 12 year old lying witness. You have three kids. You sent them home after he went for the sheriff, so they saw the confrontation. Are any of them old enough to act as counter-witnesses?

[PeteB570]

I was not there and am not a lawyer but....

If you carry - you must carry a cell phone and if you pull the gun the first thing to come out after the situation is over is the cell phone. Call 911.

If nothing else your run in with the cops would have been recorded.

[JDoutrider]

Nothing that I could see. In my mind when a stranger is charging me with only seconds to react I can't take a chance that he's not a karate expert ready to hit me with his single, practiced and perfected "death blow"."

I can understand your reaction. I'm one of those "if you pull it out use it" CCW types.

From what you related in your original post, and the attitude of your lawyer, I would definetly seek another lawyers opinion.

Pinging some on the Banglist...

[Eagles6]

save

[dmw]

All I can add to this, and I’m sure you already figured this out on your own, get a new attorney.

[Hostage]

You have a bad attorney. Get yourself a new attorney. Keep looking for one that you think will work hard for you.

Get your case before a jury.

Get a lawyer who is competent on jury selection.

Get a lawyer that can help you post bail.

Go on with your life on bail and avoid any confronation whatsoever with anyone else.

Learn a Christian value to turn the other cheek, hang your head down and suffer. You will win with this belief.

In the meantime you will not have your gun.

Put off your fight with City Hall over the Dog Park. Get out of trouble first. The Dog Park has nothing to do legally with your case.

Wait for the jury to hear from your lawyer. Be silent and composed, at peace before the jury. If you have no history of provoking others and have no police record, your chance of acquittal is good. If convicted, you can appeal and have your conviction set aside on appeal.

You were a new CWP holder. You were scared.

Research crime stats in your area. Ponder deeply why you needed a CWP and gun in your area particularly.

You are protected by the 2nd Amendment to the point that you were able to own and keep a gun. But you are now in trouble over the use of that gun.

The jury needs to know:
1. You were scared of crime in your area and needed a gun for safety and defense.
2. You were attacked.
3. You were inexperienced with your CWP license.
4. You were able to stop the attacker without assault.
5. You have no past record of provoking or assaulting.
6. The attacker has a record.

Make sure your lawyer goes over the elements of proof that a prosecutor needs to present to convict you of the charges made against you.

The key is a good lawyer and controlling your emotions. Self-composure will allow your attorney to think he/she can help you/work with you. Control control control your emotions. No crusades, no speeches, just peace and composure. Pray every day and thank God for this trial and pray that He reveals to you the steps to take to be at peace and the lesson to be learned.

[XR7]

BTTT

[ClearCase_guy]

You have a bad attorney.

I agree with that assessment. I have never been in quite this situation (thank God!) but I have been in situations where I was getting professional help and things weren't going so well. Friends said, "You're paying money to someone who isn't doing right by you. Find someone else."

Well, I was thinking, "They're a professional. They must know what they're doing." Wrong. I finally wised up and got someone else to help me. It was like night and day. I got a much better outcome -- the outcome I deserved.

Having a bad attorney can be the worst mistake of your life.

[Copernicus]

With all due respect, your story needs a timeline and more background.

Perhaps you could post the Police report of your arrest?

Could you begin at the beginning, proceed to the middle and finish up at the end?

Right now all I understand is that you were arrested at a dogpark in some unnamed city after you and another patron exchanged words and you brandished your (legally) carried weapon.

Presumably you had proper orientation and training when you acquired your CCW and somehow did not follow your instructors advice or somehow managed to ignite a cascade of threat reactions from the local police.

Best regards,

[Gilbo_3]

Prayers are up for your direction and comfort...

Having been given and seen these types of 'plea or else' threats I can only offer support and hopes that 'Mr world- class a@@hole' isnt too well connected, and that you can bring some heat to the prosecutor in time...

[Troubling Times]

I find the way the cops treated you like dirt interesting, but I confess I’m not surprised.

---

I can almost see their point of view as they took the perp's story hook, line & sinker.

But in any situation the CWP holder - if at all possible - should be able to relate his side otherwise my second amendment rights are useless.

Under these circs a true bad guy, knowing his target carries can just be in the same block with the CWP guy call in the bullshit story and have the deputies, hammer his target, arrest him, charge him and force him to plead or face mandatory minimum SIGNIFICANT state prison time of 3 years - 10 if they charge me with two counts which they did in their PC (probable cause filing - 20K bail $2000.00 gone to start - More later -

[neverdem]

I’m curious about why you pinged me first.

I’m not a lawyer, but part of the problem seems to come from having a right reduced to a privilege as well as a paranoid police force.

Getting a new lawyer sounds like a good idea. Maybe others can help.

[Quix]

Prayer is the best and most I can offer.

Sigh.

Horrible situation.

[SunkenCiv]

Next time, pull the trigger.

[raybbr]

Who is the other guy? Does he have some kind of clout with the police or city hall?

[lowbridge]

If I were you, and I’’m not an attorney, I’d fight it. Fire your attorney, get a new one. Let it come to court. I doiubt that the guys story and his kids will mesh, exposing him for the perjurer he is.

[lowbridge]

And no I'm not going to plead

Thats good. It makes no sense to surrender. Dont make it eay for them to prosecute you. They want the easy way out, and you have alot to lose by gving in. At the very least, give them a real fight.

[AFPhys]

Hmmm... thanks for the reading.

I had scheduled myself to do some Bible reading just after having a small snack and looking at FR... Now I’m wondering if this qualifies? The message certainly resonates in my heart.

[AFPhys]

Some good advice already here. Most important items: Be at peace. Reconsider your choice of lawyer. Don’t make snap decisions. Pray - and listen for an answer.

[Troubling Times]

Are any of them old enough to act as counter-witnesses?

---

13, 17 and 19 - so yes. My eldest gal is off at college 120 miles away. My attorney did arrange for them to be interviewed by the state attorney - the two youngest as they were really only generally aware that anything was wrong. My attorney said they did well, corroborated my version but that they seemed "rehearsed" - which they were not!

The state attorney says he doesn't believe my attacker but finds his daughter the most credible. Which is interesting as she was completely out of view and her description of events completely false. Sigh.

[Troubling Times]

... if you pull the gun the first thing to come out after the situation is over is the cell phone. Call 911.

---

VERY VERY GOOD ADVICE. I have spoken to several attorneys regarding this matter and they all say the 1st to complain eg contact the police usually "wins". I took time bundling my family off home instead of immediately dialing 911.

[Troubling Times]

If nothing else your run in with the cops would have been recorded.

---

I was talking to 911 when they knocked me down from behind but shortly thereafter someone kicked it out of my hand and closed it ending my call at 7 minutes+.

Those seven minutes should have included some instruction by the police as to "safing" the weapon out of my reach so the SWAT tactics would have been unnecessary.

[Troubling Times]

Wow! How long for you to go to law school, pass the bar and hang your shingle? I’ll hire you! Great thoughts - thanks.

[Troubling Times]

...Pinging some on the Banglist...

---

Thank you. I did speak with an attorney, Jon Gutmacher who wrote a good Florida gun law book and he thinks that taking the plea deal is "smart". - at least no risk of jail time and we just have to move to a safer place and go on with life. Something to be said for that.

[Troubling Times]

I’d noticed your posts on some self-defense threads and you seemed to be bang-list oriented - I even hinted once to you that I had my own story to tell (many posts ago) but I didn’t feel comfortable giving out real facts in MY criminal matter. ;-)

[Troubling Times]

Thank you for your prayers!

[Troubling Times]

Who is the other guy? Does he have some kind of clout with the police or city hall?

---

See my #41 - Call 1st!

To answer your question as well as I can - he's right in our immediate neighborhood, I suspect he's a "dogparker" and believe I even have video of him and a buddy refusing to leave the dog park at my polite request, threatening to smash my camera - just trying to document late night hours after "closing" for the city - and making it clear how he knows who I am, they can hear me on my porch conducting my business - its my office and he knows I want to close the dogpark. In fact he was the "straw" that got me motivated to finally move forward with the lawsuit that I think can quickly close it - within weeks - not years of litigation.

[Quix]

Certainly.

[Joe Brower]

Sorry for the belated ping, everyone.

Gutmacher is a pretty good attorney, so I'm told, and has a long and detailed knowledge of Florida law. I'm surprised he advised a plea deal, but maybe he knows something you don't, TT (like how corrupt the police and courts in your jurisdiction are).

On the other hand, my take on this -- fight it, all the way to the top if need be, and if you play your cards right, you will win. It will not be easy, and it will likely take years to hash out, but eventually you will be able to retire on the proceeds.

Bottom line, if your story is correct, then you need to make those who are in the wrong pay, and pay big. That goes for your attacker, the cops who assaulted you, and the corrupt dirtbags who consider themselves in charge.

It's up to you if it's worth the fight. Good luck.

[PGalt]

Thanks for the ping. Nothing to add to the good advice of many alread here. BUMP for you, Troubling Times.