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Army takes HK416s from special unit
Military.com ^ | 12 March 08 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 04/08/2008 5:33:15 PM PDT by LSUfan

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To: mamelukesabre
But, I was thinking earlier that maybe a good idea would be to neck up a 223 to maybe a 25 caliber, then load a sabboted 22 caliber bullet in it.

You get into some problems with flash suppressors and other muzzle devices with sabot rounds, one reason our M48A5 tanks that had a big honkin' muzzle brake on the end of the main gun tube didn't have a 90mm Sabot round available, and our M60 tanks with 105mm barrels without a muzzle device did get the Magic Bullets. There are other considerations with tank guns, of course, but a lot of the basics still very much apply.

Also, very fast burning powder, polygonal rifling, increased head space, less twist, much higher chamber pressures, aluminum cases or steel if necessary and a hammerforged stainless barrel. Heck, make it out of monel or nikasil or whatever stands up better than stainless. Invent a new metal if necessary. Whatever it takes to increase pressure and velocity.

But without corresponding increases in recoil or muzzle rise in full-chat, muzzle blast, or heat signature of the barrel in thermal viewers. You know that they're tinkering with a liquid-cooled M16A2 barrel in hopes of keeping the heat sig down?

But not at the expense of accuracy. Some of the ideas I just threw out may hurt accuracy.

And weight. Even the weight of one additional magazine is critical in a world where guys toss the Joker out of the card deck and saw the handles down on their toothbrushes and spoons.

101 posted on 04/09/2008 1:22:37 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

If they are really that keen on weight reduction, all the more reason to switch to aluminum cartridge cases.


102 posted on 04/09/2008 1:31:34 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre
Feed reliability partly comes from the fact that bullet diameter is less than case diameter.

Just right offhand, I can't immediately recall any round that has a bullet diameter greater than the case diameter....

Very funny. I meant to type “greatly less than” or “significantly less than”.

You're thinking of the idea that such a design, frequently including a taper to the overall case dimension, is more easily guided into the chamber during the feeding cycle. But that may work against reliable feeding within the magazine body, [or belt link] in that the space between rounds offers a place for dust/sand/mud to collect and de-lubricate the cartridges during the feed cycle. I'm waiting to see how a pal's .450 Hornady [.450 Bushmaster, .450 Thumper]conversion for his M4 works out, but the reduction of magazine capacity is not exactly what I'm after.


103 posted on 04/09/2008 1:33:37 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

liquid-cooled M16A2 barrel in hopes of keeping the heat sig down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope. Didn’t know that. That’s gotta add weight.

Can’t throw out muzzle brakes and suppressors, so I guess sabots are out.

Bushmaster makes carbon fiber receivers for AR rifles. I wonder why the military doesn’t adopt those? At least the lower receiver. A carbon upper might be less durable.


104 posted on 04/09/2008 1:37:55 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre
If they are really that keen on weight reduction, all the more reason to switch to aluminum cartridge cases.

That's a big part of the picture. A lot of it hinges on aluminum being the most plentiful/available metal, as well.

But we may not be all that far away from the plastic/ sintered powder or caseless cartridge. And until that development comes along, there are still over 100 million AKs around the world, and between 15-25 million AR15/M16 variants.

That middle cartridge [pretty!] at the end of my #100 post is an n aluminum cased example. From circa 1952....

105 posted on 04/09/2008 1:38:16 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: mamelukesabre
A carbon upper might be less durable.

Especially if you step to either side of the ramp of a CH-47 $hithook when the engines are going. And similar situations. Aiiiiieeee!


106 posted on 04/09/2008 1:42:33 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: LSUfan; All

The US Army and Marine Corps should switch either to AKs or “semi-auto” M14s. The M16 package should be relegated to Air Force MPs protecting paved airfields, as was the intention of Air Force General Curtis LeMay during the Vietnam War.


107 posted on 04/09/2008 1:45:23 PM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: ctdonath2

What we all seek is “over match.” We want to dominate the situations we are likely to find ourselves in if TSHTF. For me, the AR-15 carbine fits this. I can readily tote it in a vehicle or break it down and put it in a pack. A half dozen full magazines would “over match” any gang of pistoleros. The 5.56 will go right through soft armor, but give good terminal effects. Accurate and fast out to 300 yards, or longer if the eyes and optics permit. Light enough to carry all day, though that is unlikely at our ages. I’m not likely to do a 5,000 round unlubed stoppage test, if I ever fire 180 rounds in anger, that will be a max encounter, and I have 100% confidence the rifle will do that and much more.


108 posted on 04/09/2008 2:08:50 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Trying to get better small arms to our troops is a project for a Sisyphus.


109 posted on 04/09/2008 2:11:38 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: archy

The most ergonomic and fastest target acquiring configuration I know of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PaintBallMarker.jpg

Now, change the “hopper” to a high tech multi functional optics system, move the “tank” to the rear of the receiver and change it to a high tech recoil absorbtion device(possibly hydraulic) and you have a silouette of what I envision to be the future battle rifle. The magazine is missing however.

Notice that an M16 with about a 12” barrel would come awfully close to that silouette.

For magazine type and location, I’m partial to the calico.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

The reason I like the calico magazine is it permits the foreward grip to be very close to the trigger, as in the painball gun. The bottom eject would need to be changed to a forward eject, like the new FN rifle has.

Short barrels reduce bullet speed with current loadings. We need guns that can withstand twice the chamber pressures currently common, or more. I’m thinking 4 to 6 thousand ft/sec from a 12” barrel.


110 posted on 04/09/2008 2:15:44 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre

If you are going by muzzle energy, a .17 beats the .45.

But in the real world, that big fat slow .45 makes a big damn hole in bad guys, and dumps all of it’s energy into him. The 9mm hardball zips right through, and leaves most of its energy in the next wall.

Now, if you are upping the ante to 9mm +P hollowpoints, that is a different issue, and a solution forbidden to soldiers.


111 posted on 04/09/2008 2:40:01 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Lancey Howard

For later.


112 posted on 04/09/2008 2:49:12 PM PDT by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: archy
But we may not be all that far away from the plastic/ sintered powder or caseless cartridge.

I went to a tank practice shoot at Ft. Bragg several months ago.

Was surprised to find out the rounds used in the M1 Abrams are made of a plastic. That is the cartridge case portion.

When the breech is opened, the only thing spit out is the primer cup. It's about the diameter of a beer can and about 1 1/2 " high. of
Everything else went out the barrel.

113 posted on 04/09/2008 2:58:59 PM PDT by Vinnie (You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Jihads You)
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To: mamelukesabre
The most ergonomic and fastest target acquiring configuration I know of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PaintBallMarker.jpg

Now, change the “hopper” to a high tech multi functional optics system, move the “tank” to the rear of the receiver and change it to a high tech recoil absorbtion device(possibly hydraulic) and you have a silouette of what I envision to be the future battle rifle. The magazine is missing however.

Notice that an M16 with about a 12” barrel would come awfully close to that silouette.

Army RAP4 METS training

For magazine type and location, I’m partial to the calico.



http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

The reason I like the calico magazine is it permits the foreward grip to be very close to the trigger, as in the painball gun. The bottom eject would need to be changed to a forward eject, like the new FN rifle has.

The Calico eject out-the-pistol-grip arrangement wasn't so bad for a pistol caliber case, but I don't know if that arrangement was used on the 5.56mm version under development before the company relocated from California [CALifornia Instrument CO.] after California passed their assault weapons ban. Though a folding stock was available on some of the .22 and 9mm CALICO *rifles* and the CALICO SMG, I was always pretty happy using the 100-round magazine of the 9mm pistol as a *cheekweld* buttstock substitute.

So long as the ejection isn't to either side, either outward or downward seems to work, though the in-line feed is hardly unique to the CALICO, found previously on the caseless H&K G11 caseless design and the Hill submachinegun of the 1950s.

Short barrels reduce bullet speed with current loadings. We need guns that can withstand twice the chamber pressures currently common, or more. I’m thinking 4 to 6 thousand ft/sec from a 12” barrel.

Ow. Hurts my ears just thinkin' about it. But with about 6 inches of suppressor on the end, I guess it'd be managable indoors in a bullpup configuration.


114 posted on 04/09/2008 3:23:47 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

Horrible image.

That’s a British soldier on a Warrior IFV.


115 posted on 04/09/2008 4:33:08 PM PDT by LSUfan
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To: LSUfan
Horrible image.

That’s a British soldier on a Warrior IFV.

Yep. Fropm Basra a couple of years back, after the Brits sprung a couple of their people from a local Iraqi hoosegow. Or Gaol, to the Brits. It's one of the pics I've got bookmarked and drag out when one of the young troops begins complaining about how hot the Nomex is.

The other time it's handy is when somebody says that Molotov cocktails won't work against modern vehicles with Diesel engines and fixed fire extinguisher systems. They may not work as well, but....

116 posted on 04/09/2008 4:57:19 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

Suppressor is right! My opinion is, a suppressor should be standard equipment on all firearms INCLUDING CIVILIAN firearms. tinnitus is a b!tch. I especially think we should all have these gizmos after recently reading that somebody invented a suppressor that doesn’t add much to the overall length of the barrel. Apparently, this new fangled suppressor slides over the barrel and also has some compensator effect to counter muzzle rise.


117 posted on 04/09/2008 5:56:52 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre
Yep. That's Juha Hartikka's *reflex suppressor,* which extends the baffle stack of the can around the barrel. These are most certainly NOT *just another marketing claim*, the development of suppressor technology has been extensive in Finland, and representative designs are far from *just another stack of washers/baffles with a hole down the middle.*

Info *here and more *here*, including a neat pic of suppressor-equipped MG34.

The company name is BR-Tuote. Contact info *here.*

118 posted on 04/09/2008 6:18:53 PM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

I think we concur on a whole lot of this discussion. That’s a good thing!

I guess I missed the 6.8x39 idea-I never saw much utility in the AK weapon overall. What I do know is that a lot of 7.62x39 rounds get thrown at us (general direction anyway, not too much aimed fire in my experience (a very good thing!), while we paid some more attention to putting the dot on the BG and, well, you know.

Ref. the concept of intermediate caliber combinations-they all have fallen by the wayside, excepting the 556 (speaking of western counties anyway). Don’t hold your breath for a new service cartridge!

I think the guts of the problem is we are still using centerfire cartridge technology that is well over 125+ years old. Where are teh JMBs of teh 21st century? (oh, right, we pump billions into non-lethal etc, when the bottom line is BGs need to be killed)

Our mid-bore cannons (25mm Bushmaster etc) operate at a whole lot higher pressures (~125k psi), they hold together and are very potent, yet our small arms are still limited to 60k psi....

I have a Ruger M77 270 win that I double charged with a reduced load of pistol powder (short range practice, and it held together-case head expanded about .050”, primer was never found and the bolt had to be beaten open with a leather hammer. I was too old to be turned over my Dad’s knee (I was about 15) but I got a very stern lecture about QC in the reloading process! I always do basic brass checks for case head expansion with my reloading endeavors.


119 posted on 04/09/2008 6:41:06 PM PDT by Manly Warrior (US Army, Retired)
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To: Squantos; Eaker; dcbryan; Criminal Number 18F; archy; Travis McGee

Not only the bean counters, but our “friends” in congress that force procurement laws on those of us involved in acquisition that leave no legal outs from stupid decisions such as this. Rep Coburn made a stand, but he is swimming uphill against all his cohorts in the house.


120 posted on 04/09/2008 7:26:47 PM PDT by SLB (Wyoming's Alan Simpson on the Washington press - "all you get is controversy, crap and confusion")
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To: Travis McGee

6.5 Grendel does. Getting reliable 25 round magazines requires trial and error though.


121 posted on 04/09/2008 11:58:03 PM PDT by Old Dirty Bastiat
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To: Old Dirty Bastiat

Grendel is a better round, but if getting 25 rounds into a standard 30 round 5.56 mag is the goal....


122 posted on 04/10/2008 5:00:07 AM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: mamelukesabre

“Overpenetration? You’re a nut. Nobody cares about overpenetration from a rifle. So why should they care about overpenetration from a pistol?”

Because overpenetration doesn’t stop the enemy.


123 posted on 04/10/2008 12:38:28 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: SLB

Coburn needs to be the GOP’s choice someday for POTUS !


124 posted on 04/10/2008 2:19:11 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.©)
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To: archy

LOL ....... I have same design big honkin muzzle brake with my JP muzzle brake on a TC Contender 45-70.......Fun !


125 posted on 04/10/2008 2:32:01 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.©)
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To: Travis McGee
But in the real world, that big fat slow .45 makes a big damn hole in bad guys, and dumps all of it’s energy into him. The 9mm hardball zips right through, and leaves most of its energy in the next wall.

Yep. Learned that from an instructor at USN gunnery school who was probably alive when the 1911 hit the market.

126 posted on 04/10/2008 2:39:31 PM PDT by Vigilantcitizen (Gone fishin.)
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To: 2CAVTrooper

Because overpenetration doesn’t stop the enemy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well gee, I guess they better throw away all the M16 variant rifles then and issue tommyguns eh? Letsee, how the heck did we ever win ww2 with all those stupid overpenetrating 30-06 caliber rifles? Man, the army is dumb, they just don’t know anything about stopping the enemy do they?


127 posted on 04/10/2008 3:57:10 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: Squantos
LOL ....... I have same design big honkin muzzle brake with my JP muzzle brake on a TC Contender 45-70.......Fun !

Don't use sabots with it. Not even the plastic ones. Trust me on this.

But if you must, have somebody hold your beer, and watch when you try it.

128 posted on 04/11/2008 7:33:38 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: 2CAVTrooper
“Overpenetration? You’re a nut. Nobody cares about overpenetration from a rifle. So why should they care about overpenetration from a pistol?”

Because overpenetration doesn’t stop the enemy.

Well, there goes my favorite M829 APFSDS-T 120mm rounds...


129 posted on 04/11/2008 7:39:40 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: mamelukesabre
liquid-cooled M16A2 barrel in hopes of keeping the heat sig down?

Nope. Didn’t know that. That’s gotta add weight.

Sure does. But it also prevents gas tube burn-through, another M16 family problem after a half-dozen Beta-C mags or Chinese LXX drums are cranked through on ratty-tat.

130 posted on 04/11/2008 7:43:43 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy

It couldn’t damage the barrel, could it? Just shoots the muzzle brake off right? Hmm, maybe in a hand held pistol it yanks the pistol out of your hand? That’d be funny to see someone’s pistol flying down the shooting range.


131 posted on 04/11/2008 8:40:47 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: archy

Add mass to the gas tube, and some cooling fins. That’d be the easiest patch. Next, try better materials. Tungsten perhaps. A water jacket sounds like a crazy idea to me.


132 posted on 04/11/2008 8:52:43 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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To: mamelukesabre
It couldn’t damage the barrel, could it?

The result is similar to what's described as *baffle strike* in a suppressed handgun, when a bullet touches the edge of an interior baffle before exiting the suppressor's muzzle/wipe. Instant internal keyholing is not guaranteed with every shot, but remains a high probability.

Just shoots the muzzle brake off right?

Or through/out the side of it. Sometimes at a near-90º angle, not necessarily to the side. Wear safety-toed shoes!

Hmm, maybe in a hand held pistol it yanks the pistol out of your hand? That’d be funny to see someone’s pistol flying down the shooting range.

It's less funny if the strike causes damage/burrs that further damage and deflect following rounds. More funny when the muzzle attachment flies downrange in a M203 round-like trajectory.

133 posted on 04/11/2008 9:32:37 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: mamelukesabre
Add mass to the gas tube, and some cooling fins. That’d be the easiest patch. Next, try better materials. Tungsten perhaps. A water jacket sounds like a crazy idea to me.

The application was for a test fixture gun used for testing largish quantities of M856 tracer ammo for the M16A2. Why they didn't just use an M249 is unknown to me, but....

134 posted on 04/11/2008 9:35:35 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: Squantos
If we could only travel in time.......:o)

Your wish is my command. I've set the Wayback Machine for 05 March 1836, with coordinates for San Antonio De Valeria De Bexar, otherwise known as the Alamo....

135 posted on 04/11/2008 11:07:17 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: griffin
LOL! Is that guy on the lower right having mag problems??! :)

Just a minor training glitch. He wasn't paying attention during the hasty familiarization course, and thought he had to change magazines after every shot....

136 posted on 04/11/2008 11:08:37 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: Manly Warrior
I have a Ruger M77 270 win that I double charged with a reduced load of pistol powder (short range practice, and it held together-case head expanded about .050”, primer was never found and the bolt had to be beaten open with a leather hammer. I was too old to be turned over my Dad’s knee (I was about 15) but I got a very stern lecture about QC in the reloading process! I always do basic brass checks for case head expansion with my reloading endeavors.

As the late Phil Sharpe once wrote, and the Angels sing....

137 posted on 04/11/2008 11:12:23 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: Vinnie
I went to a tank practice shoot at Ft. Bragg several months ago.

Was surprised to find out the rounds used in the M1 Abrams are made of a plastic. That is the cartridge case portion.

When the breech is opened, the only thing spit out is the primer cup. It's about the diameter of a beer can and about 1 1/2 " high. of Everything else went out the barrel.

Yes, Damnit! The cases of our 90mm and 105mm tank rounds [some were still brass! most galvanized steel], sawed off and with handles made from a dummy .50 MG round or the handle of a M1918 LF&C brass knuckle knife brazed on, made a dandy 2-litre beer mug. And the primer tube inside was just the right diameter to serve as the body of a swell swagger stich, again using a .50 fired case, or that of a 20mm Marder or Vulcan round as the handle, culminating in a tip made out of a 7.62 [co-ax gun] or 5.56mm dummy.


138 posted on 04/11/2008 11:53:52 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: archy
For later perusal.

L

139 posted on 04/11/2008 12:01:29 PM PDT by Lurker (Pimping my blog: http://lurkerslair-lurker.blogspot.com/)
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To: archy

Indeed.......dreams.


140 posted on 04/11/2008 1:11:28 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.©)
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To: Travis McGee; archy

Hey !.......I still have that letter from the DOD authorizing me too use hollow point ammo in anti terrorist low intensity conflicts aka LIC Missions !!

Of course I keep it in a hermetically sealed , stainless steel box buried under the arc of the covenant for safety just in case they want a copy !


141 posted on 04/11/2008 1:27:45 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.©)
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To: archy; Squantos
There should be a museum of all the artifacts and curios invented by bored GIs. Naturally, the museum would be constructed entirely of ordnance crates.
142 posted on 04/11/2008 5:08:37 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee; archy

Indeed....I collect trench art from WWI. Some very very intricate work on old artillery brass........:o)

Great stuff.....

As well......the ingenuity of the GI’s in the field are indeed amazing. We built entire condo’s underground using conex’s and newer larger sea containers , cutting HVAC ports and windows with flex linear shape charges because we couldn’t find a cutting torch. In some open desert bases we built, underground was the coolest spot and invisible in a region where one could see the curvature of the earth on a clear day......


143 posted on 04/11/2008 5:46:00 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.©)
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To: mamelukesabre

Whatever you say skippy.


144 posted on 04/13/2008 5:14:32 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: 2CAVTrooper
"Because overpenetration doesn’t stop the enemy." Image and video hosting by TinyPic ,,,(snicker)...;0)
145 posted on 04/13/2008 5:25:04 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: archy
Those are nice.

In Desert Storm, the M829A1 “Silver Bullet” was known to penetrate a five foot thick sand berm, through the frontal armor of a T-72, through the engine block, and exit out the rear of the tank.

But that is a wee bit bigger than the 5.56mm M855 NATO ball round.

146 posted on 04/13/2008 6:07:18 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: mamelukesabre

And another thing, care to explain why the Army gave a $9,205,500 fixed-price, indefinite-delivery and indefinite-quantity, supply contract to Black Hills Ammunition for 5.56mm Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration ammunition?

Gee I wonder why the Army is wanting a round with LIMITED PENETRATION?


147 posted on 04/13/2008 6:15:43 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: mamelukesabre

“Bushmaster makes carbon fiber receivers for AR rifles. I wonder why the military doesn’t adopt those? At least the lower receiver. A carbon upper might be less durable.”

Because the lower receiver takes more abuse since the stock and hand grip is attached to it and thats where the magazine well is located.


148 posted on 04/13/2008 6:21:04 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: archy

“Especially if you step to either side of the ramp of a CH-47 $hithook”

And that’s providing you’re not knocked on your butt by the down wash either. :D


149 posted on 04/13/2008 6:23:17 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?)
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To: 2CAVTrooper

Carbon fiber upper receivers are different. No forward assist. No flap on the ejection port. It probably doesn’t meet military requirements.


150 posted on 04/13/2008 6:30:59 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?)
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