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Polygamists erred when they messed with Texas
Reuters ^ | May 1, 2008 | Ed Stoddard

Posted on 05/02/2008 5:13:31 AM PDT by Zakeet

When a renegade Mormon sect was looking for a quiet place to live out its polygamous beliefs, it made a Texas-sized mistake when it picked this state to move to.

Texas responded by raising the age at which children can legally get married with parental consent, and law enforcement agencies immediately put the sect in its crosshairs.

The result was raids this month that left 463 minors in state hands or foster care. With judges saying they will hear abuse cases individually, the sect's practices are sure of thorough legal scrutiny.

"They made a big mistake when they came here," said Harvey Hilderbran, who represents this part of Texas in the state legislature. "We didn't invite those folks to Texas but by God we expect them to obey our law."

[Snip]

Authorities in Arizona and Utah have accused it of coercing young girls into marrying much older men. Its leader, Warren Jeffs, was convicted in Utah last year as an accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her cousin.

"With action being taken in Arizona and Utah, it seems like they decided to branch out," said Benjamin Bistline, a historian who has written about the sect in Arizona. "They didn't realize they were making a mistake going to Texas."

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: cult; dontmesswithtexas; flds; govtabuse; mormon; mormonbashing; mormonism; pedophile; polygamy; rape; rapepedophelia

Anti-polygamist activists have lauded Texas.

"They have done what we have been trying to get Utah and Arizona do for a
100 years and that is protect children
," said Flora Jessop, who was raised in an
FLDS community from which she fled when she was a teenager. "I say God bless
Texas
."

1 posted on 05/02/2008 5:13:31 AM PDT by Zakeet
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To: Zakeet
When a renegade Mormon sect was looking for a quiet place to live out its polygamous beliefs, it made a Texas-sized mistake when it picked this state to move to.

Good.

2 posted on 05/02/2008 5:15:52 AM PDT by ukie55
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To: Zakeet

Well, the Mormons tried it with the entire US at the very start, and they lost that round, too. This resulted in their official abandonment of polygamy and some of the more violent, cultic aspects of their religion, with the result that only splinter groups like the FLDS continue these practices.

Polygamy is really a form of slavery and these people have essentially been released from slavery and from the mentality of a slave-culture. They’re still going to be very damaged, because this should actually have happened years ago, but at least they have a chance now.


3 posted on 05/02/2008 5:24:23 AM PDT by livius
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To: Zakeet

Utah is still looking the other way when it comes to enforcing laws that the polygamist sects continue to break.

Come on Utah, show us what you really believe!

(oh, I guess you already have)


4 posted on 05/02/2008 5:24:44 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: colorcountry
Come on Utah, show us what you really believe!

(oh, I guess you already have)

By the comments from the apologists on these threads they have. Not that they are all from Utah but that's where their religion is centered.

5 posted on 05/02/2008 5:29:30 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: Zakeet
"We didn't invite those folks to Texas but by God we expect them to obey our law."

Now when are we going to apply this to the illegal aliens, and the gangs, etc.?

6 posted on 05/02/2008 5:48:30 AM PDT by YellowRoseofTx
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To: colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; Greg F; ...
Flying Inman Ping

Don't forget, for all kinds of source links and info, check out the FLDS Daily Thread.

HERE

7 posted on 05/02/2008 5:56:15 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: Zakeet
When a renegade Mormon sect was looking for a quiet place to live out its polygamous beliefs...

This is not entirely true. FLDS has a history of taking over the towns they infiltrate through sheer numbers of votes and the sect's collective wealth. Eldorado was chosen for a reason, and I'm sure that the intent was to turn it into another Colorado City or Hildale. With these guys, it is all about power and control, not only within their polygamist families, but the environment in which they live.

8 posted on 05/02/2008 6:02:50 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: livius
Big Love's Bill Henrickson, "Warren should have stayed away from the under age girls."


9 posted on 05/02/2008 6:04:47 AM PDT by TheDon
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To: Graybeard58; colorcountry
By the comments from the apologists on these threads they have.

The mLDS members look at polygamy with longing in their hearts. The only reason they can condemn the practice is because the United States made it illegal. If they were to condemn the practice as being morally wrong or evil (as this episode has shown that it is) then they would have to condemn the very foundation of their religion along with its founders.

The the mLDS members, the practice of polygmay was officially ended with the 1890 and 1904 Manifestos, but there is always hope that one day God will once again change his mind and that the manifesto will be lifted and the mLDS stick will be joined with the fLDS stick and togther they will be one in God's hand.

10 posted on 05/02/2008 6:11:10 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: YellowRoseofTx
Now when are we going to apply this to the illegal aliens, and the gangs, etc.?

Well, if we could just get 'em all to move to a compound in the desert, it'd make the job a little easier...

11 posted on 05/02/2008 6:20:36 AM PDT by green iguana
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: P-Marlowe

Are you naturally this ignorant or do you have to really work hard at it?

What a load of tripe.


13 posted on 05/02/2008 7:19:52 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Are you naturally this ignorant or do you have to really work hard at it?

Educate me.

Is polygamy an immoral practice?

Is Doctrine and Covenants section 132 still considered scripture by the mLDS Church?

Are Joseph Smith and Brigham Young currently practicing polygamy in the afterlife?

Does the mLDS Church agree with Brigham Young and the oLDS Church that the the Heavenly Father, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young has many wives?

Does the mLDS Church still teach that Jesus was a polygamist?

14 posted on 05/02/2008 7:44:28 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; Choose Ye This Day; SENTINEL
Hypothetical: A temple-worthy Mormon man "dies" for several minutes on the operating table. He reports that before he was resuscitated, that his 3 wives that he serially was married to "on earth" but had already died were there waiting for him and that he acted in a "husbandly" way to each of them during his brief "celestial visit."

Given the 100% unique position of Mormonism (fundie or otherwise) that "marriage is forever," is this man fundamentally a polygamist in the eyes of average "Joe Mormon" or is he "single?"

And since the...
...Mormon church performs [present tense] polygamous "for eternity" ritual ceremonies with the 2nd & 3rd earthly serial "wives" to their same-said husband...
...in its church-owned temple...
...paid for by LDS tithing dollars...
...And polygamy is expressly regarded in our lifetime by LDS apostles as a "holy practice" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed.)...
...I guess if you're going to continue to deny these things then you might as well rip off the "families are forever" bumper stickers in your ward parking lots.

As Sentinel has said on a few of his posts, as least the fLDS are more forward about what they believe than mLDS. (I happen to think they're not that much more forward for legal reasons; but he's right...it's quite a statement to say that fLDS are more forward & forthright on this issue than mLDS who...
...spiritually hem & haw...
...& parse time frames & parse locations...
...& conveniently "forget" these current temple rituals...
...& qualify & cut out parts of the Book of Mormon to describe its past polygamy...
...& now claims that monogamy is its "default" standard when D&C 132:4,21,27,32,37 (oh, except when the Mormon god says otherwise)...
...is frankly like downtown Vegas blinking, "If you want celestial kingdomhood, walk down the temple aisle multiple times...Follow in the footsteps of what..."
...D&C says...
...70 general authorities' earthly lives said...
...7 LDS "prophets'" lives said...
...these general authorities alleged eternal lives say...
...mLDS apostles said in our generation...
...mLDS leaders still sanction & embody in LDS temples...

15 posted on 05/02/2008 8:36:32 AM PDT by Colofornian (What's a planetary compound w/a local god ruling polygamous wives? LDS celestial kingdom)
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To: P-Marlowe

Please ping me if you get any answers on these excellent questions.


16 posted on 05/02/2008 10:16:38 AM PDT by fishtank (Fenced BORDERS, English LANGUAGE, Patriotic CULTURE: A good plan.)
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To: P-Marlowe; Choose Ye This Day
"Are you naturally this ignorant or do you have to really work hard at it?"

Educate me.

Is polygamy an immoral practice?

Is Doctrine and Covenants section 132 still considered scripture by the mLDS Church?

Are Joseph Smith and Brigham Young currently practicing polygamy in the afterlife?

Does the mLDS Church agree with Brigham Young and the oLDS Church that the the Heavenly Father, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young has many wives?

Does the mLDS Church still teach that Jesus was a polygamist?

============================================================ Please ping me when it gets answered, thanks

17 posted on 05/02/2008 11:09:17 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Graybeard58

“By the comments from the apologists on these threads they have. Not that they are all from Utah but that’s where their religion is centered.”

I have been reading these threads from the start, and I do NOT think mainstream LDS Mormons make up much if any of the “apologists.”


18 posted on 05/02/2008 3:56:23 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: P-Marlowe

The first dead giveaway that something is really out of whack is when a religion keeps changing what it thinks is moral.


19 posted on 05/02/2008 5:53:39 PM PDT by festus (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: greyfoxx39

BTTT


20 posted on 05/02/2008 6:27:56 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: NYpeanut; the808bass; brytlea; pandoraou812; ricks_place; CindyDawg; Huntress; Pebcak; ...

PING!!

FReepmail to be added to the FLDS Eldorado Legal Case Ping List


21 posted on 05/02/2008 9:54:59 PM PDT by Politicalmom (It's the child abuse, stupid!!)
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To: truth_seeker
I have been reading these threads from the start, and I do NOT think mainstream LDS Mormons make up much if any of the “apologists.”

While I think you are in the main correct, many of the apologists have some connection to the Mormon church. It seems the most vocal defenders of this sect are people who have close friends or relatives who are Mormon. I don't know why, but it's more than just one or two data points.

22 posted on 05/02/2008 10:31:49 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: the808bass

“While I think you are in the main correct, many of the apologists have some connection to the Mormon church. It seems the most vocal defenders of this sect are people who have close friends or relatives who are Mormon. I don’t know why, but it’s more than just one or two data points.”

Like I said, I have seen no evidence the defenders are mainstream LDS Mormons.

And I DO have friends and relatives who are LDS Mormons (I have never been). I would bet my friends and LDS Mormon relatives are at least as adamently opposed to the FLDS goings on as anybody; probably more so.

When I say more so, I think it is because they know will be smeared by Mormon-haters over this, even though it is none of their doing.


23 posted on 05/02/2008 10:55:11 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: P-Marlowe
Educate you? I doubt you're open to learning anything that contradicts your preconceived notions, but, very well. I will educate you.

The mLDS members look at polygamy with longing in their hearts.

Assuming you mean LDS members: no, we don't.

Thus endeth the lesson. Have a nice day.

24 posted on 05/02/2008 11:22:12 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Assuming you mean LDS members: no, we don't.

So why doesn't the LDS Church remove Doctrine and Covenants section 132 from their scriptures?

Was Jesus a polygamist?

Don't you long to be like Jesus?

25 posted on 05/02/2008 11:28:06 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: truth_seeker

I am a mainstream Mormon, and I think the crimes committed by this FLDS sect are disgusting and despicable, and have said so since the beginning of this incident one month ago.

Yet, time after time, as I read through these threads, I am constantly bombarded by ignorant Mormonbashers who say that I am no different than the child rapists of the FLDS because all “Mormons” are the same.

I’ve just about had it with this place.


26 posted on 05/02/2008 11:31:15 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: P-Marlowe

News flash: 99.9% of Mormons don’t think much about polygamy at all. It’s not something we wish “we” were still doing. It’s not something we look forward longingly to do in the future. We’re just trying to live our lives here and now, the best we can, the way we feel God wants us to.

We are not living 118 years in the past. We leave that to you.

Please, P-Marlow, go on hating us and willfully misunderstanding and misrepresenting who we really are and what we believe. Keep doing so, because it obviously gives you great pleasure and joy. You must not have any other hobbies, so if this is the only thing that makes you happy, enjoy. Knock yourself out.

Just don’t expect me to play your little game.

God will judge me, not you. God will judge me, and He’ll judge you, too.


27 posted on 05/02/2008 11:39:31 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: All

Sorry to post and run, but I have been too busy to spend much time on FR lately.

As a woman born and raised in the United States, I cannot believe that ANY woman would EVER agree to be in a polygamous situation unless she’s been brainwashed or threatened or just too disenfranchised or abused to realize she deserves to be monogamous or to be a single woman living her life with dignity and safety.

We American women have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, meaning, in part, our own lives and the freedom to share our lives with decent men who will respect us and love us.

Why don’t these women just pick up some cast iron skillets and clobber their pedophile creepy husbands up side the head?


28 posted on 05/02/2008 11:53:50 PM PDT by Joya (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner!)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
News flash: 99.9% of Mormons don’t think much about polygamy at all. It’s not something we wish “we” were still doing. It’s not something we look forward longingly to do in the future. We’re just trying to live our lives here and now, the best we can, the way we feel God wants us to.

Maybe you should think about it. After all the PROPHETS of your Church have stated that it is essential to your exhaltation.

Mormon Prophet Joseph F. Smith:

"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or nonessential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false... Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith,... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected.... I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pp. 28-31)

Do you not look forward with longing towards your eventual exaltation? If your prophets are correct, then how can you do it unless you become a polygamist?

29 posted on 05/03/2008 12:46:22 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Zakeet

I must join that.....”I say God bless
Texas.”


30 posted on 05/03/2008 12:52:36 AM PDT by Gator113 (Obama is a member of the Far Wright Conspiracy.......)
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To: livius; Yehuda; dennisw; Lijahsbubbe; Jeremiah Jr; Diego1618; bearsgirl90; Ancesthntr
Polygamy is really a form of slavery and these people have essentially been released from slavery and from the mentality of a slave-culture.

Nissan is referred to as "the month of the redemption." According to the accepted opinion of our sages: "In Nissan our forefathers were redeemed from Egypt and in Nissan we will be redeemed" (Tractate Rosh HaShana 11a).

Nissan is a month of miracles (nissim). The fact that the name Nissan possesses two nuns implies, according to our sages, nissei nissim--"miracles of miracles." Of the redemption of the future it is said: "As the days of your exodus from Egypt, I shall reveal to him wonders." In Chassidut this verse is explained to mean that the wonders of the redemption of the future will be wondrous and miraculous relative to the miracles of the Exodus from Egypt--"miracles of miracles."

LINK

In the secular media - throughout the month of Nisan no less - we have heard repeatedly the phrase, "Yearning for Zion". No surprise, Zion derives from the word tsiyun, a sign or mark.

Jeremiah 31.

6. For thus says the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout on the hilltops of the nations; proclaim, praise, and say, O Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel:

7. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and she who labors with child together; a great company shall return there:

8. They shall come weeping, and with supplications will I lead them; I will make them walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, where they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn:

Boy marks birthday with mom freed from dungeon

Dallas man freed by DNA testing after 27 years in prison

31 posted on 05/03/2008 2:24:55 AM PDT by Ezekiel
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To: Colofornian
"Hypothetical: A temple-worthy Mormon man "dies" for several minutes on the operating table. He reports that before he was resuscitated, that his 3 wives that he serially was married to "on earth" but had already died were there waiting for him and that he acted in a "husbandly" way to each of them during his brief "celestial visit." "

I'm just curious. What laws of the State of Utah would have been violated ?

32 posted on 05/03/2008 4:43:46 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: Ezekiel

Wow.

Thanks for that post, very appropriate.


33 posted on 05/03/2008 5:41:04 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Zakeet

Polygamy is wrong and against the law but far worse is the way this was turned into a sex cult for the leaders. The woman look so stupid and brainwashed. Most of it not their fault. The whole granny dress stuff is cult like and brainwashing. And the way the young men were booted so the older men got the young women for their 5th and 6th wives is piggish and immoral


34 posted on 05/03/2008 7:19:25 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: P-Marlowe

Said when polygamy was being practiced on earth.

1878.

You’re hopelessly stuck in the past.

I’m not.


35 posted on 05/03/2008 10:13:59 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Said when polygamy was being practiced on earth.

Said when polygamy was being practiced on earth declared illegal in the United States.

The Mormons were flaunting the laws back then.

Why are you so embarrassed of your prophets?

36 posted on 05/03/2008 10:33:38 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

So, you come by this naturally, I take it.

Where were the Mormons in 1878? In the United States?

Give up. You lose. You’re doing nothing to bring souls to Christ. You’re obsessed with Mormon past, and you ought to be more concerned about your own future.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go baptize my daughter and help increase the swelling LDS membership rolls.

May God bless you.

Your brother in Christ.


37 posted on 05/03/2008 11:10:30 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Where were the Mormons in 1878? In the United States?

I guess they were their own independent nation, huh?

Utah was a territory under the sole and sovereign jurisdiction of the United States of America. The Congress had outlawed polygamy in the territories under its jurisdiction and the Mormons flaunted that law until the church was eventually disincorporated and the Government had begun seizing assets of the LDS Church.

It was only after the US Goverment began actively enforcing the laws that the LDS Church had their so-called "revelation" suspending the practice.

If you are trying to argue that the LDS Church was not in violation of the law then you have no knowledge of your own church history. Which doesn't surprise me since you think that quoting prophets from 100 years ago is "Living in the past".

Well the prophets I quote and from whom I derive my doctrine all lived thousands of years ago.

So yes, I do live in the past. 1878 is but a moment in time on the Biblical prophecy time line. Joseph F. Smith was not only a recent prophet, but a false prophet to boot.

38 posted on 05/03/2008 11:31:41 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Obsessed and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.


39 posted on 05/03/2008 5:42:15 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (Save a life: BOYCOTT ETHANOL. Pass it on.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Obsessed and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.

Then you should take some prozac and read some books.

40 posted on 05/03/2008 5:46:58 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Isn’t it ironic that a country which espouses freedom of religion required a church to change their marraige practice to become a state in that country?


41 posted on 05/03/2008 5:51:57 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: purpleraine
Isn’t it ironic that a country which espouses freedom of religion required a church to change their marraige practice to become a state in that country?

I didn't realize that the Church became a State.

42 posted on 05/03/2008 5:53:34 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

I thought you were an expert on the history of the Mormons in Utah? Do you want to respond to the issue I raised or do I have to keep rewording the question to get a serious answer?


43 posted on 05/03/2008 5:56:22 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: purpleraine
I thought you were an expert on the history of the Mormons in Utah?

I'm not an expert. I'm simply an observer.

Do you want to respond to the issue I raised or do I have to keep rewording the question to get a serious answer?

Why don't you just find someone else to answer your questions. There's lots of people on this thread who would be more than happy to answer your questions, provided you don't insult them in the process.

44 posted on 05/03/2008 6:15:25 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: purpleraine

Deseret had to change its practice.

The Latter-day Saints did not like their territorial status. Church leaders and the territorial legislature contiunously pushed for statehood.

Delegates met in 1856, wrote a Constitution and proposed the state of Deseret. Congress did not agree.

In 1872 a constitutional convention drew up a new Constitution, dropping the Deseret name from their petition. When that failed, the state of Deseret ended.


45 posted on 05/03/2008 6:25:17 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife
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To: P-Marlowe
If you're insulted by my pointing out you were non-responsive, you need help.

I didn't ask you initially to answer any question, you volunteered that non-responsive reply. I repied accordingly and now you're depressed and angry.

Look to your own behavior for the cause of your problem.

46 posted on 05/03/2008 7:38:56 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

Thank you for that historical perspective. BTW, they didn’t have to do anything. They chose to do it.


47 posted on 05/03/2008 7:40:11 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: purpleraine
Look to your own behavior for the cause of your problem.

Don't post to me anymore.

48 posted on 05/03/2008 9:00:58 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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