Posted on 06/11/2008 7:44:53 AM PDT by Incorrigible
And burn up the intake, exhaust valves and spark plugs due to the ultra lean fuel mixture. What about potentional detonation and engine knock?
That’s an interesting experiment, but there are some likely sources of significant error. First is the nature of the fuel measurement. You need to control for fuel trapped at stall. You could do this by replacing the fuel tank with a graduated cylinder, and recording the time required to consume a fixed quantity of fuel at various loads.
The second thing would be to control for engine temperature during the run. A cold engine is going to consume more fuel than a hot engine. You sould run the engine at full load for say fifteen minutes before each test.
If you control for these, and several other parameters, what you will ultimately find is that there is a direct relationship between power produced and fuel consumed. You will also find that fuel efficiency improves as you get closer to wide open throttle (WOT). Peak engine efficiency occurs at WOT and peak torque.
IMO If there is any shread of technical merit to Hydrogen generation, it is this effect of improving specific fuel consumption as load increases, but this effect is probably buried by the efficiency of the conversion process.
We are not talking about leaning back the burn mixture in the cylinder, we're talking about leaning back the amount of gasoline delivered to the cylinder with brown gas supplementing the burn mixture.
I also understand that you can advance the valve timing (or retard the timing?) with the faster and more efficient burn of the hydrogen/fuel/air mixture. This usually causes higher emissions with gas and air alone, but you get better mileage- the reason Honda CRXs used to get 50 MPG and the best we can do today on average is about 35.
I could be all wrong, but this is my understanding.
One of these things can be built for about a hundred bucks. I’d like to see one dyno tested and put on a five-gas analyzer too.
I have a new Jeep and an 06 Mustang GT, and I dont’ want to risk either one. I need an older car to try this with. I understand you’re supposed to advance the timing and mod the O2 sensor to make it work correctly.
Actually I didn't test them, I let Craig test them after hours on his own time, but I saw the results : )
Want to save money on fuel? Here are my suggestions.
Get the least restrictive air filter possible.
Get rid of the pollution control crap.
Do everything you can to make the airflow going in and out of the engine as least restrictive as possible.
Make certain that your compression is good and that all of your plugs and ignition system is working properly.
Advance the timing as far forward as you can without it pinging, knock sensors are mandatory (chip it).
Buy the highest octane recommended for the engine.
Buy your fuel when it is cold and drive when it is warm : )
Find the sweet spot in the RPM range, generally in the 2800 to 3200 rpm range and try to give the engine the minimum amount of gas to maintain that rpm. : )
Depending on what you have been doing with your engine that might give you up to a 10 - 20 performance and fuel economy boost. If you can follow the last bit of advice you might get a whole lot better than 20% : )
When it is empty you aren't using any electricity at all, but when you start plugging stuff in, the wattage used starts climbing. You pay for exactly the amount of electricity that you use. None is wasted.
A generator or alternator is exactly the same, except that it is very inefficient. If a generator is just idling it is 100% wasted energy, with no demand no energy is being produced. And here is where the rub is, just hooking up an alternator to an engines wastes about 2 hp, it actually gets more efficient as as it produces electricity up to about 10 - 20 amps. Basically what I am trying to say is that the first few amps that the alternator produces are essentially free (if you don't use them you lose them). Then as the amp demand increases the alternator starts to demand more hp, up to 8 to 10 hp.
So basically what I am trying to say is that both of your are correct, Yes there is some 'free or wasted' electricity but it is only because the system is so inefficient and the 'free' electricity is only in very limited amounts any thing beyond a tiny amount is very expensive.
Let me illustrate the problem. A typical auto engine is lucky to get 20% to 40% of the energy in a gallon of gas, most of the energy escapes as wasted heat. An alternator is lets be generous 50% efficient and electrolysis is lets be generous again, 50% efficient. So if a gallon of gas has 100,000 BTU's (it has more but I am mathematically challenged) that means that this hydrogen/oxygen produced by the engine is (100k x .4 x .5 x .5) = 10,000 BTU's. So essentially what these people are doing is taking 100k BTU's and converting them to 10k BTU's.
This kind of reminds me of the time I bought a trailer. I asked the seller how much it would hurt our gas mileage towing the trailer, the seller said oh about 10 miles to the gallon. I looked at my brother in confusion, because our truck only got 10 miles to the gallon, we wondered if we would be better off just pouring the gasoline on the ground. As it turned out it didn't affect the trucks gas mileage at all.
Good suggestions.
I have a question on the timing advance. Old Honda CRXs get 50 mpg, but comparable newer cars don’t even approach this figure. Is this because of retardation of the timing to achieve emission standards?
As for the knock sensor, that can be overcome with a flashed prom or different chip?
In the end, I still can’t help but suspect that a little HHO would cause a more efficient burn. The trick is getting the rest of the car’s programming to utilize it properly. Probably why most of these homemade units are being installed on older carbed cars.
I don't know, but my guess is that they retarded the timing (if that is what they did) to save the engine. Advancing the timing is always good until the engine blows : )
As for the knock sensor, that can be overcome with a flashed prom or different chip?
Sure, but it would be very, very bad to ignore it. Once the engine starts to knock or ping, the timing has to be retarded, instantly.
In the end, I still can’t help but suspect that a little HHO would cause a more efficient burn. The trick is getting the rest of the car’s programming to utilize it properly. Probably why most of these homemade units are being installed on older carbed cars.
Hmm, I suspect they do it on older cars for two reasons. First they are cheaper to fix and work on and second they are more likely to be out of tune.
I am pretty sure that adding HHO won't affect the burn at all, because the HHO will combine with itself, it won't combine with the gasoline. The engine and air intake system is designed to get as close to the stoichiometric (perfect burn) possible. Good ignition systems adjust for temp, altitude, humidity, octane, etc. Basically it tries to match the volume of fuel with the volume of air to get a perfect burn.
If you really want to increase the efficiency increase the compression and operating temps. That is why ceramic engines have such appeal. Nitrous oxide will boost performance : )
I think that the idea of reducing gasoline consumption with supplementation of brown gas has significant merit to it if enough can be produce from excess electrical energy provided by a vehicle's alternator. That's my take whether folks agree or disagree.
Well that was what was interesting when Craig tested the things on the dyno. They had no effect. I was sure that they would be a net energy loss because of the load that they would put on the alternator.
What the test result showed was that they didn't bog down the alternator and they didn't produce enough gas to be detectable. The on and off results were identical.
Because that’s the only two directions the energy is going to go... mechanical energy and heat.
The Mechanical energy comes from the expansion of liquid/gases in the combustion chamber. Heating those gas contributes to the expansions as well as breaking down the longer hydrocarbon molecules.
The small (and it must be incredibly small amounts) of hydrogen being added adds that much in terms of BTU to the combustion chamber.. but the O which is the other product of splitting the water molecule may be causing the fuel to burn more efficiently
The Brown's gas contains oxygen and hydrogen in the exact ratio needed for their complete combustion. There is no surplus oxygen produced to aid gasoline combustion unless some of the hydrogen is not combusted.
Hey, and if ya put generators on the wheels, you get the electricity ya need to make the hydrogen from the water... /sarc
New Fuel Cell System ‘Generates Electricity with Only Water, Air’
techon.nikkeibp.co.jp | 06-13-2008 | Kouji Kariatsumari, Nikkei Electronics
Posted on 06/13/2008 12:02:30 PM PDT by Red Badger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2030708/posts
Water-fuel car unveiled in Japan
Reuters (video) | June 13, 2008
Posted on 06/13/2008 11:18:59 AM PDT by HAL9000
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2030689/posts
-and-
Sumitomo Electric Equips Electric Car with Superconducting Motor
techon.nikkeibp.co.jp | 06-13-2008 | Motohiko Hamada, Nikkei Monozukuri
Posted on 06/13/2008 12:24:15 PM PDT by Red Badger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2030723/posts
It’s dangerous if not in a tank. :’) Oxygen burns. My dear old dad maintained to the day he died that oxygen (he was on the machine or the tank for a year or more) only supports combustion, but that’s not true. I’ve seen someone (not dad) who insisted on smoking while wearing the snout, and the oxygen ignited and gave him cool flame decals on his face.
I wonder about platinum plugs. Those plasma plugs (uh, where’s the freakin’ URL, I saved it... oh well) from Pulstar (something like that) don’t appear to be that much off a boost (although there is a small one, according to sparkplugs.com ), and platinum plugs give even more.
Thanks for #38.
Stephen Kushnir's 7-year-old Chevrolet Prizm used to get 35 miles per gallon on the highway... Now the Prizm gets 50 miles per gallon on the highway, Kushnir said... In a world of $4 gasoline, hydrogen generators are drawing a lot of interest... Kushnir said his Prizm is averaging 40 miles per gallon in city driving and about 50 mpg on the highway since he installed the Hydrogen Hurricane. His wife's Jeep is averaging in the low 20s, up from about 16 mpg, he said.How much distilled water is needed, and how much does distilled water cost?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.