Posted on 11/06/2008 1:35:14 PM PST by Demosthenes
We are absolutely in uncharted waters. I believe part of the problem is the Founders never intended to have political campaigns. Their stand was "Let the office seek the man not the man seek the office". We are very far away from what they intended.
Your scenario may be the outcome. Scotus may also be afraid to open the can of worms. This will certainly test their love of country and the Constitution.
With a Constitutional mess.
could the electors cast their vote for Biden directly?
I don't know. Originally, the person with the most votes was the President and second runner up was VP. The Founders never intended for there to be political parties and campaigns. This case will certainly test the Scotus on original intent.
I can assume Biden would then pick Hillary as his VP
Biden didn't run for President but Hillary did. Since she was in the running they might pick her. She was second on the list in the primaries.
My premise was based on our discussion last night of how the votes for the “ticket” would be dispersed. If you take a “one-for one” basis and every vote for Obama was also a vote for Biden, then if Obama is ineligible, Biden has the most votes. This gives Biden the Presidency. Since we now have a President, the question of who would be Vice-President comes into play. Technically, that could be construed as either McCain OR Palin (again one-for-one) as the second highest vote getter. Since McCain is the Democrat (a little humor here) he would get the nod.
All of the above is predicated on Obama being ruled ineligible PRIOR to te vote of the Electoral College. If the vote is already taken, then Biden would assume the Presidency and he would be free to pick a Vice President, enter Hillary.
I have a suspicion that the full Court would actually hear this. Since it is a relativly simple matter that doesn’t require interpretation of the Constitution (other than succession) the Court just may take this on.
Every office holder when sworn in swears to up hold the Constitution of the US of A. Have those words become as empty as a congregation repeating the Lord’s Prayer empty?
Do they open themselves for impeachment if they don’t.
IMO The SCOTUS must hear the case or risk impeachment in mass.
Yup. I got ya'. My only problem with it is that Biden didn't run for Prez. And you're right about McCain. If the criteria is votes cast for President, it would be McCain, the Dem wannabe. I think it would depend on whether Scotus would go back to square one, the primaries, or start at square 2, the election.
This topic is so interesting with so many ins and outs.
I have a suspicion that the full Court would actually hear this. Since it is a relativly simple matter that doesn’t require interpretation of the Constitution (other than succession) the Court just may take this on.
I hope you are right. We also need to address the candidate vetting process. Proving citizenship should be part of it.
Apparently.
Do they open themselves for impeachment if they don’t.
But there's a problem. We can't even get FReepers to agree that this is serious. One yesterday was having a cow. "It will cause RIOTS!" You'd never get consensus on impeaching the full Scotus for not doing their job.
OK, not to belabor a point, I was conceding to you that the votes were one-for-one. If you remember last night (this morning) you took me to task for my position in saying there was no way you could determine how many votes were for Obama and how many votes were for Biden. If I remember correctly you words were “Use some common sense”
I say this not to argue, but to accept your premise and move on.
If Obama is found not to be qualified, then the highest OVERALL vote getter wold be Biden. In keeping with Article 2, he would be the President. Again, accepting your premise, EITHER McCain or Palin could be VP since they both received an equal number of votes.
If you read Article 2, it states the person with the highest number of votes would be named president. It doesn’t differentiate the office. So if Obama isn’t qualified, the person with the greatest number of votes WOULD be Biden.
Thoughts?
bump for later
Kudos for that excellent analysis! Exactly right IMO. To dismiss this case really doesn't uphold the Constitution AT ALL.
I had not yet thought in those terms but that analysis is spot on. They pretty much have to hear these cases or I for one will be writing anyone and everywhere I can think of calling for impeachment proceedings.
Does the SCOTUS have a web sight or email address?
I remember you mentioning this this morning, I would “guess” if the SCOTUS were to take this case, they would assume (I hate that word) that a vote for Obama would also be a vote for Biden.
I am trying to find anything in the Constitution that changed the concept of individuals running for the office as opposed to “tickets.”
If you look at the language, the highest vote getter would be named President, the next highest would be Vice President. In theory, this could allow a Democratic President and a Republican VP. From a practical matter, it wouldn’t work. But where is the language that says we vote as a “ticket” a two for one concept if you will?
And lastly, why are we even in this position? All Obama had to do was show the vault copy of the birth certificate and this is all a futile discussion. Why continue to hide it?
Another interesting scenario to play out. Should the court deem Obama ineligible and side with Berg, then the DNC who are also defendants in Berg's suit, would also be deemed accomplices in attempting to defraud the American people by not adequately vetting their candidate.
Ergo, should Obama be ineligible for fraud and failing to meet the constitutional requirements, it would seem to reason that the DNC as accomplices to this fraud, would then at least for this election be ineligible to run a candidate, period, because it was a fraudulent election.
Just thinking outside the box here. Berg is definitely right on one thing: We are in a constitutional crisis.
Here's their website:
Looking through the website I don't see any e-mail but I did find a phone number.
OK, another conundrum. Article 3 was superseded by the 12th Ammendment. The Amendment clearly states that the electors vote for both a President and a Vice President and record the votes for each.
If Obama is found not to be qualified, in theory, McCain would have the greatest number of electors. That would give him the Presidency. If Biden had a greater number of votes than Palin, that would give him the Vice Presidency.
And all of this is giving me a headache.
I'm still leaning toward Biden being acting Pres until a President qualifies. And it's because he didn't run as a Presidential nominee
We have so changed "original intent" with passing things that were never intended that I don't see a clear path. The general public was never meant to vote. We were to vote for electors and they would vote for President. The second runner up was VP. It changed in 1804 I think. That compares in no way with how things are done now. It almost becomes a guessing game of "What would the Founders do?"
If I was testy last night I apologise. I was overly tired and should not have been posting.
If they are sworn in and both removed then Nancy P would become president.......AAAAAUUUUURRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!
I hadn't even thought of that. It would certainly change the game.
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