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Fueled by H2O?
www.bendbulletin.com ^ | 12-26-2008 | By Andrew Moore

Posted on 01/02/2009 1:30:04 PM PST by Red Badger

Can a car run on water?

Bend businessman Rob Juliano claims it can, despite ample skepticism from scientists and automotive experts.

Although the average price of fuel has slipped dramatically from a summer high of more than $4 per gallon, Juliano believes water — specifically the hydrogen contained in water — can be used to power an internal-combustion engine at a fraction of the cost of gasoline.

Hydrogen is being pursued as a fuel by car manufacturers. Honda earlier this year debuted its FCX Clarity, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle powered by an electric motor. BMW has developed a car that can use either gasoline or hydrogen to power a traditional motor.

Juliano, however, is peddling something a bit different. Through his company — UnitedH2O.com — the 1984 graduate of Bend’s Mountain View High School builds and installs electrolytic hydrogen generators. They are small, footlong canisters that use electricity from a car battery to break water into its gaseous components, hydrogen and oxygen.

The gases are then funneled into the engine, where — due to the combustive nature of hydrogen — it is used to help drive an engine’s pistons. The process means less gasoline is injected into the piston cylinders, hence the car can travel farther on less gas, thereby increasing the car’s fuel efficiency. In other words, Juliano says cars with his system get more miles per gallon.

Lincoln City resident Linda Young, who paid roughly $1,100 to have Juliano install the system, says her gas mileage has increased nearly 65 percent. Her Nissan Maxima used to get roughly 17 miles per gallon, but the last time she checked, it was getting 28 miles per gallon, she said.

(Excerpt) Read more at bendbulletin.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Technical; US: Nebraska
KEYWORDS: auto; energy; fuel; hydrogen; or; perpetualmotion
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nventor Rob Juliano stands in front of a customer’s engine that’s been outfitted with an electrolysis-based hydrogen gas pump he’s developed. The system uses power from the car battery to break down water into its gaseous components, which are then pumped into the engine with the goal of improving fuel efficiency. Photos by Pete Erickson / The Bulletin

1 posted on 01/02/2009 1:30:04 PM PST by Red Badger
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To: sully777; vigl; Cagey; Abathar; A. Patriot; B Knotts; getsoutalive; muleskinner; sausageseller; ...

Another Magic Energy Device................


2 posted on 01/02/2009 1:30:48 PM PST by Red Badger (I was sad because I had no shoes to throw, until I met a reporter who had no feet.....)
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To: Red Badger

“Its not that I want to punish you for being successful,...”


3 posted on 01/02/2009 1:32:30 PM PST by incredulous joe ("No road is long with good company. " - Turkish Proverb)
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To: Red Badger

Rob Juliano, I cast thee out! The power of thermodynamics compels you!


4 posted on 01/02/2009 1:33:39 PM PST by TheWasteLand
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To: Red Badger

Old tech. Granny Duck was driving with water years ago :)


5 posted on 01/02/2009 1:34:36 PM PST by toomuchcoffee ( Yeah, I'll help you buy some real estate)
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To: Red Badger

Old tech. Granny Duck was driving with water years ago :)


6 posted on 01/02/2009 1:34:38 PM PST by toomuchcoffee ( Yeah, I'll help you buy some real estate)
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To: Red Badger

Check this site out. http://water4gas.com/2008.htm


7 posted on 01/02/2009 1:35:03 PM PST by RC2
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To: Red Badger

These guys keep creeping out of the waterworks.


8 posted on 01/02/2009 1:35:53 PM PST by decimon
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To: Red Badger

9 posted on 01/02/2009 1:35:53 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the opium of the people.)
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To: RC2

Been there. Done that...............


10 posted on 01/02/2009 1:35:55 PM PST by Red Badger (I was sad because I had no shoes to throw, until I met a reporter who had no feet.....)
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To: Red Badger

Did it work for you? If not, why not?


11 posted on 01/02/2009 1:37:37 PM PST by RC2
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To: RC2

No, I meant the Site, not the process...........


12 posted on 01/02/2009 1:38:13 PM PST by Red Badger (I was sad because I had no shoes to throw, until I met a reporter who had no feet.....)
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To: RC2

Because of the laws of Thermodynamics...


13 posted on 01/02/2009 1:38:37 PM PST by AntiKev ("Within the strangest people, truth can find the strangest home." - Great Big Sea - Company of Fools)
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To: Red Badger
They are small, footlong canisters that use electricity from a car battery to break water into its gaseous components, hydrogen and oxygen.

A 5 gallon bucket of water, a couple of rebar electrodes and a 12V battery charger and some sodium carbonate release hydrogen as well....not exactly rocket science. I use mine for cleaning parts....don't smoke around it.

14 posted on 01/02/2009 1:38:38 PM PST by ScreamingFist (Annihilation - The result of underestimating your enemies. NRA)
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To: Red Badger
BRIDGE FOR SALE - inquire within:

15 posted on 01/02/2009 1:39:34 PM PST by Repeal The 17th
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To: Red Badger
This just in:

A Mr. Rob Juliano has just been arrested for breaking the law...three laws to be exact. They are known as the Laws of Thermodynamics...film at eleven.
16 posted on 01/02/2009 1:39:42 PM PST by Sudetenland (Those diplomats serve best, who serve as cannon fodder to protect our troops!)
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To: Red Badger

I have the book but never tried it. I would be curious to speak with someone that is using it. Not an installer, an actual user. I enjoy playing around with engines.


17 posted on 01/02/2009 1:39:52 PM PST by RC2
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To: Red Badger

18 posted on 01/02/2009 1:40:08 PM PST by BGHater (Tyranny is always better organised than freedom)
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To: AntiKev

Please explain. I would like to know the reasoning why it can’t work.


19 posted on 01/02/2009 1:42:09 PM PST by RC2
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To: ScreamingFist

What kind of parts need that kind of cleaning?
(I’ve done some crude plating with a similar setup.)


20 posted on 01/02/2009 1:42:12 PM PST by Repeal The 17th
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To: Red Badger
MR. P.T. BARNUM! Paging MR. P.T. BARNUM!

Sir, your guests have arrived.
21 posted on 01/02/2009 1:43:02 PM PST by Sudetenland (Those diplomats serve best, who serve as cannon fodder to protect our troops!)
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To: Red Badger

Engines have been made that ran successfully on pure water, after it was heated by burning wood or coal.


22 posted on 01/02/2009 1:44:46 PM PST by Sender (Never lose your ignorance; you can never regain it!)
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To: Red Badger

Is there some kind of “Magic Energy Device” Ping list? I find these things fascinating.


23 posted on 01/02/2009 1:45:38 PM PST by Kevmo ( It's all over for this Country as a Constitutional Republic. ~Leo Donofrio, 12/14/08)
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To: RC2
Bottom line: You have to expend more energy separating H2O into Hs and Os than the Hs will produce when burned. It's simple physics.

Reading suggestion: Physics for Future Presidents by Richard A. Muller

24 posted on 01/02/2009 1:47:03 PM PST by PackerBoy (Just my opinion ....)
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To: RC2
First Law of Thermodynamics

Second Law of Thermodynamics

In layman's terms:


25 posted on 01/02/2009 1:48:31 PM PST by AntiKev ("Within the strangest people, truth can find the strangest home." - Great Big Sea - Company of Fools)
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To: RC2
The layman's three laws of thermodynamic:
26 posted on 01/02/2009 1:48:49 PM PST by Sudetenland (Those diplomats serve best, who serve as cannon fodder to protect our troops!)
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To: TheWasteLand

That’s the first time I’ve had a good laugh in one of these hydrolysis threads.

Thanks for the chuckles.


27 posted on 01/02/2009 1:49:10 PM PST by NVDave
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To: Red Badger

Rainbows and unicorn farts are a more reliable source of energy.


28 posted on 01/02/2009 1:49:44 PM PST by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger then yours)
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To: RC2
If the conversion was 100% efficient, you would get as much energy out of burning the hydrogen as you put in to tearing apart the water to get the hydrogen. That energy has to come from burning the gasoline. So at best you have a zero sum game. Since nothing is 100% efficient, you should be losing mileage by doing this unless by adding hydrogen you are somehow improving the efficiency of the engine.

Some suggestions from when this popped up a few months ago:

1. placebo effect: the driver is gradually accelerating and braking to drive more efficiently.
2. adding hydrogen to the fuel-air mixture improves the way it burns so you get more useful energy out of the fuel
3. When adding the device the installer changes the engine control program so that the engine burns fuel more efficiently, but at the possible expense of more pollution or faster engine wear.

29 posted on 01/02/2009 1:49:48 PM PST by KarlInOhio (11/4: The revolutionary socialists beat the Fabian ones. Where can we find a capitalist party?)
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To: Sender

Ouch! Should’ve seen that one coming.


30 posted on 01/02/2009 1:50:29 PM PST by Sudetenland (Those diplomats serve best, who serve as cannon fodder to protect our troops!)
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To: Red Badger

Nice picture! Where’s the auxiliary hydrogen tank that he filled up at the welding hut hidden?


31 posted on 01/02/2009 1:52:58 PM PST by Sudetenland (Those diplomats serve best, who serve as cannon fodder to protect our troops!)
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To: BGHater

Yay! Netflix has it! I’m so happy!


32 posted on 01/02/2009 1:54:00 PM PST by Vroomfondel
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To: AntiKev

If I break either of the laws of thermodynamics will I get a ticket? If the ticket is cheap enough it may be worth it!


33 posted on 01/02/2009 1:54:11 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in the 1930's.)
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To: Sudetenland

Okay... I’m as aware of the Laws of Thermodynamics as the next guy, and I understand that they cannot be broken. I understand that if you burn hydrogen, in doing so you can only release as much energy as it took to originally electrolyze the hydrogen from the oxygen in the first place, less a chunk for inefficiency. So, if you were hoping to fuel an engine that would drive a generator that would electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen which you would then burn in the engine, of course you could never achieve a self-sustaining system. The engine wouldn’t run.

But let’s do a little thought experiment here. Let’s discount the thread’s title for a moment, because the device described in the article isn’t the sole fuel source for the cars it’s installed in. “Fueled by H20” isn’t quite accurate.

So we know that the Otto cycle engine is in its own right relatively inefficient at extracting mechanical energy from gasoline, correct? What if the addition of hydrogen into the combustion chamber along with the gasoline fuel charge wasn’t just adding the BTUs from the hydrogen to the mix, but was also promoting a more efficient burn of the gasoline?

From a thermodynamic point of view, it is not impossible that introduction of hydrogen into the combustion chamber could increase the efficiency of the engine at burning gasoline, thereby scavenging energy from the gasoline that would have otherwise been blown out the manifold with the exhaust. It’s likewise not impossible that the quantity of energy scavenged from the gasoline through a better, cleaner burn might exceed the quantity of the energy initially required to electrolyze the hydrogen from the water.

I’m not saying I endorse the guy’s invention. I’m just presenting it for the sake of argument. Maybe the guy’s not absolutely stupid.


34 posted on 01/02/2009 1:56:50 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: RC2
Because it takes more energy to split the hydrogen and oxygen than you get back when you burn the hydrogen.

Plus, it takes a LOT of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure to run a car, not just the small stream of bubbles this contraption generates.

35 posted on 01/02/2009 1:58:49 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are the opium of the people.)
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To: All

Not to mention that since the vehicle’s electrical system is providing the power to run the electrolysis, the alternator has to work harder, robbing the system of horsepower that otherwise would go to the wheels.


36 posted on 01/02/2009 1:59:16 PM PST by LegendHasIt (Freepmail me if you want to join the Precious Metals ping list.)
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To: RobRoy

And if this worked it would do what to the price of water?


37 posted on 01/02/2009 1:59:50 PM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: RobRoy

Fortunately, these laws can't be broken (with the usual disclaimers about present technology, presently unknown forms of matter, etc.).

38 posted on 01/02/2009 2:00:14 PM PST by AntiKev ("Within the strangest people, truth can find the strangest home." - Great Big Sea - Company of Fools)
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To: Red Badger; decimon; RC2

This is not so new - Brown’s Gas is generated and introduced into the engine as monoatomic H & O, producing much more energy than H2 & O2. In this case it is used with gasoline and really does improve fuel mileage. A lot of these devices are available today, and they work, though I have not seen any that improve fuel economy by 65% - about half that or less.

Systems have been made and installed that will run the car on Brown’s Gas without using gasoline. These require a source of electricity to convert the water to H & O. It is still efficient. There have been a few vehicles powered this way that required no fuel to produce the electricity. A lot of you reading that will yell for the tinfoil hats - so be it. I am an engineer, I have seen lab scale versions of fuelless energy generation, and I believe it.

Tesla knew how to power vehicles without fuel, and did so. There are those who do not want this to be, and will do what they can to stop it. We do not need to be dependent on petroleum for energy generation. We do not need a grid for energy distribution to our homes. I have seen a 40 KW generator that runs without fuel.


39 posted on 01/02/2009 2:01:19 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: RC2
RC2 wrote:
Please explain. I would like to know the reasoning why it can’t work.
Basically, it takes energy to break water into hydrogen and oxygen. For various reasons, you don't get all the energy back when you burn the hydrogen and oxygen. The engine isn't 100% efficient. The charging system that recharges the battery isn't 100% efficient.

You can't get as much energy from burning the hydrogen and oxygen as you had to expend to break the water apart.

So the only thing this type of system will do, at best, is run the car's battery down over time, requiring it to be recharged to keep the cycle going. If you recharge it by driving it, you're hurting your fuel economy. If you plug in a battery charger and hook it up, you're using electric power to make up the energy losses.

40 posted on 01/02/2009 2:01:25 PM PST by cc2k
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To: Red Badger

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=110531

I’d love to get my Suburban running on water! ;-)


41 posted on 01/02/2009 2:04:19 PM PST by tutstar (Baptist Ping list - freepmail me to get on or off.)
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To: Repeal The 17th
What kind of parts need that kind of cleaning?

I use it for cleaning up old parts and such for restoring engines, radio chassis....etc....

A good link for basic info.

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

42 posted on 01/02/2009 2:05:54 PM PST by ScreamingFist (Annihilation - The result of underestimating your enemies. NRA)
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To: massgopguy

>>And if this worked it would do what to the price of water?<<

No prob, I live in Seattle. I could just put a rain catcher on my car.

But wait! the exhaust is water! I could just run the exhaust pipe directly to my “water/fuel” tank. A sealed loop!

Woohoo!


43 posted on 01/02/2009 2:06:20 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in the 1930's.)
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To: Oberon
"From a thermodynamic point of view, it is not impossible that introduction of hydrogen into the combustion chamber could increase the efficiency of the engine at burning gasoline, thereby scavenging energy from the gasoline that would have otherwise been blown out the manifold with the exhaust. It’s likewise not impossible that the quantity of energy scavenged from the gasoline through a better, cleaner burn might exceed the quantity of the energy initially required to electrolyze the hydrogen from the water."

Adding the hydrogen isn't going to make more efficient... For more efficient combustion, you would want to inject the oxygen, not the hydrogen.... And unfortunately, that would take twice as much electrical energy to produce the same volume of oxygen as hydrogen..

44 posted on 01/02/2009 2:06:36 PM PST by LegendHasIt (Freepmail me if you want to join the Precious Metals ping list.)
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To: AntiKev

>>Fortunately, these laws can’t be broken (with the usual disclaimers about present technology, presently unknown forms of matter, etc.).<<

I’ll have you know we break them on a regular basis on my home planet. How the heck do you think I got here?!

Unfortunately not all of us are privy to the technology so I can’t help you with how it works. I just know my pod uses it.


45 posted on 01/02/2009 2:07:47 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in the 1930's.)
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To: TheWasteLand

“The power of thermodynamics compels you!”

LOL!


46 posted on 01/02/2009 2:10:43 PM PST by Brucifer (Proud member of the Double Secret Reloading Underground.)
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To: Red Badger

This is the old “Brown’s Gas” scam that has been running for 70 years or so. It sort of works, but will never return the purchase price in savings.


47 posted on 01/02/2009 2:11:15 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bummer administration looks allot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: ScreamingFist
A 5 gallon bucket of water, a couple of rebar electrodes and a 12V battery charger and some sodium carbonate release hydrogen as well....not exactly rocket science. I use mine for cleaning parts....don't smoke around it.

I suggest using lead (better yet, the lead peroxide plates or rods from car batteriers) rather than steel for the cathode. If you use the periodic reverse process, make sure that the last step is to make the parts anodic. Also, sodium hydroxide with a little industrial detergent added in works better than sodium carbonate. If you get smutty parts, turn down the voltage.

48 posted on 01/02/2009 2:11:58 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: LegendHasIt
Adding the hydrogen isn't going to make more efficient... For more efficient combustion, you would want to inject the oxygen, not the hydrogen....

It's not as simple as all that. Adding more oxygen than the stoichiometric ratio requires won't help. However, it is possible that the device in the OP delivers all the electrolyzed gases to the engine, in which case it's fortifying the normal fuel-air charge with the exact ratio of hydrogen and oxygen to get perfect combusion... no hydrogen or oxygen left over. I would think that this mixture would be extremely ignitable, more so than the regular gasoline-air mix the engine usually gets.

49 posted on 01/02/2009 2:13:04 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: All

Every so often we have to rehash this. Remember the covalent bond of hydrogen to oxygen is very strong in water which is precisely why this is so energy intensive to break.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1781558/posts


50 posted on 01/02/2009 2:13:59 PM PST by BipolarBob (Even the earth is bipolar.)
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