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How Democracies Become Tyrannies
americanthinker.com ^ | February 16, 2009 | Ed Kaitz

Posted on 02/16/2009 9:46:22 AM PST by Tolik

Back in 1959 the philosopher Eric Hoffer had this to say about Americans and America:

For those who want to be left alone to realize their capacities and talents this is an ideal country. 

That was then. This is now. Flash forward fifty years to the election of Barack Obama and a hard left leaning Democrat Congress. What Americans want today, apparently, is a government that has no intention of leaving any of us alone. 

How could Hoffer have been so wrong about America? Why did America change so quickly? Can a free people willingly choose servitude?  Is it possible for democracies to become tyrannies? How?

The answers to these questions were famously addressed in a few pages tucked within the greatest masterpiece of the classical world: Plato's Republic.  On the surface, and to most reviewers of Plato's writings, the Republic is a dialogue on justice and on what constitutes the just society.  But to careful readers the deeper theme of the Republic is the nature of education and the relationship between education and the survival of the state.  In fact, the Republic is essentially the story of how a man (Socrates) condemned to death for "corrupting" the youth of Athens gives to posterity the most precious gift of all: the love of wisdom.

In the Republic, two young men, Glaucon and Adeimantus, accompany the much older Socrates on a journey of discovery into the nature of the individual soul and its connection to the harmony of the state.  During the course of their adventure, as the two disciples demonstrate greater maturity and self-control, they are gradually exposed to deeper and more complex teachings regarding the relationship between virtue, self-sufficiency, and happiness. In short, the boys begin to realize that justice and happiness in a community rests upon the moral condition of its citizens.  This is what Socrates meant when he said: "The state is man writ large."

Near the end of the Republic Socrates decides to drive this point home by showing Adeimantus what happens to a regime when its parents and educators neglect the proper moral education of its children.  In the course of this chilling illustration Adeimantus comes to discover a dark and ominous secret: without proper moral conditioning a regime's "defining principle" will be the source of its ultimate destruction.  For democracy, that defining principle is freedom. According to Socrates, freedom makes a democracy but freedom also eventually breaks a democracy.

For Socrates, democracy's "insatiable desire for freedom and neglect of other things" end up putting it "in need of a dictatorship."  The short version of his theory is that the combination of freedom and poor education in a democracy render the citizens incapable of mastering their impulses and deferring gratification.  The reckless pursuit of freedom leads the citizens to raze moral barriers, deny traditional authority, and abandon established methods of education.  Eventually, this uninhibited quest for personal freedom forces the public to welcome the tyrant.  Says Socrates: "Extreme freedom can't be expected to lead to anything but a change to extreme slavery, whether for a private individual or for a city."

Adeimantus wants Socrates to explain what kind of man resembles the democratic city.  In other words, he wants to know how "democratic man" comes to be and what happens to make this freedom loving man eventually beg for a tyrant.  Socrates clarifies that the democratic man starts out as the son of an "oligarchic" father -- a father who is thrifty and self-disciplined.  The father's generation is more concerned with wealth than freedom. This first generation saves, invests, and rarely goes in for conspicuous consumption.[i]

The father's pursuit of wealth leaves him unwilling and unable to give attention to his son's moral development. The father focuses on business and finance and ignores the business of family. The son then begins to associate with "wild and dangerous creatures who can provide every variety of multicolored pleasure in every sort of way."  These Athenian precursors of the hippies begin to transform the son's oligarchic nature into a democratic one.  Because the young man has had no moral guidance, his excessive desire for "unnecessary pleasures" undermines "the citadel" of his soul.  Because the "guardians" of the son's inner citadel -- truth, restraint, wisdom -- are absent, there is nothing within him to defend against the "false and boastful words and beliefs that rush up and occupy this part of him."

A 1960s revolution in the son's soul purges the last remaining guardians of moderation and supplants new meanings to old virtues:  "anarchy" replaces freedom, "extravagance" replaces magnificence, and "shamelessness" replaces courage.  The young man surrenders rule over himself "to whichever desire comes along, as if it were chosen by lot."  Here Socrates notes the essential problem when a free society becomes detached from any notions of moral virtue or truth: desires are chosen by "lot" instead of by "merit" or "priority."

For the son the democratic revolution in his soul is complete.  In this stage "there is neither order nor necessity in his life, but he calls it pleasant, free, blessedly happy, and he follows it for as long as he lives."  Socrates gives a brief illustration of the young man's new democratic life:

Sometimes he drinks heavily while listening to the flute; at other times he drinks only water and is on a diet; sometimes he goes in for physical training; at other times, he's idle and neglects everything; and sometimes he even occupies himself with what he takes to be philosophy.  He often engages in politics, leaping up from his seat and saying and doing whatever comes into his mind.  If he happens to admire soldiers, he's carried in that direction, if money-makers, in that one.

In short, the young man has no anchor, no set of guiding principles or convictions other than his thirst for freedom.  His life is aimless, superficial, and gratuitous. The spoiled lotus-eaters of his generation have defined themselves simply by mocking all forms of propriety and prudence.  What's worse, as these Athenian baby-boomers exercise their right to vote, they elect "bad cupbearers" as their leaders.  The new cupbearers want to stay in office so they give the voters whatever they desire.  The public, according to Socrates, "gets drunk by drinking more than it should of the unmixed wine of freedom."  Conservative politicians who attempt to mix the wine of freedom with calls for self-restraint "are punished by the city and accused of being accursed oligarchs."

As conservative politicians court suspicion so do conservative teachers and academics who stubbornly hold on to objective measurements of performance: "A teacher in such a community is afraid of his students and flatters them, while the students despise their teachers or tutors."  Conservatism becomes unpopular just about everywhere, to a point at which even the elderly "stoop to the level of the young and are full of play and pleasantry, imitating the young for fear of appearing disagreeable and authoritarian."

The explosion of boundaries and limits extends even to national identity itself, so that resident aliens and foreigners "are made equal to a citizen."

The citizens' souls become so infected with freedom that they become excessively paranoid about any hint of slavery.  But slavery comes to mean being under any kind of master or limit including the law itself.  Says Socrates: "They take no notice of the laws, whether written or unwritten, in order to avoid having any master at all." That is, any kind of "hierarchy" in a democracy is rejected as "authoritarian."  But this extreme freedom, according to Socrates, eventually enslaves democracy.

As the progressive politicians and intellectuals come to dominate the democratic city, its "fiercest members do all the talking and acting, while the rest settle near the speakers platform and buzz and refuse to tolerate the opposition of another speaker."  There are "impeachments, judgments and trials on both sides."  The politicians heat up the crowds by vilifying business and wealth and by promising to spread the wealth around.  The people then "set up one man as their special champion" and begin "nurturing him and making him great." 

The people's "special champion" however transforms from leader to tyrant.  He "drops hints about the cancellation of debts and the redistribution of land" and continues to "stir up civil wars against the rich."  All who have reached this stage, says Socrates, "soon discover the famous request of a tyrant, namely, that the people give him a bodyguard to keep their defender safe for them."  The people give him this new security force, "because they are afraid for his safety but aren't worried at all about their own."

Socrates describes the early weeks of the new leader's reign:

"Won't he smile in welcome at anyone he meets, saying that he's no tyrant, making all sorts of promises both in public and in private, freeing the people from debt, redistributing land to them, and to his followers, and pretending to be gracious and gentle to all?"

After a series of unpopular actions, including stirring up a war in order to generate popular support, the leader begins to alienate some of his closest and most ardent advisers who begin to voice their misgivings in private.  Following a purge of these advisors the tyrant attracts some of the worst elements of the city to help him rule.  As the citizens grow weary of his tenure the tyrant chooses to attract foreigners to resupply his dwindling national bodyguard.  The citizens finally decide they've had enough and begin to discuss rebellion. 

At this point in the dialogue Adeimantus asks Socrates incredulously: "What do you mean?  Will the tyrant dare to use violence against [the people] or to hit [them] if [they] don't obey?  Socrates answers:

"Yes - once he's taken away [the people's] weapons."

Thus ends Book VIII of Plato's Republic.  I won't spoil the marvelous ending (Books IX and X) but I would like to spend a few moments drawing some conclusions about the overall message of this fascinating text and its relevance for 21st century Americans.

First, those of us who are incapable of self-mastery will always shamefully prostrate ourselves before messianic political leaders.  The progressive left in America has spent countless generations destroying the guardians of our inner citadel: religion, family, parents, and tradition - in short, conservatism and limits.  When we exhaust the financial and moral capital of previous generations (and future ones, as with the current stimulus bill) we will dutifully line up at the public trough, on our knees.  Citizens capable of self-mastery will always choose to be left alone.  In other words, they'll always choose limited government.

Second, freedom without limits paves the way to tyranny by undermining respect for the law.  When politicians play fast and loose with the law it becomes easier for them and for the people to see special champions as alternative sources of rule.  Today in America the objective basis for law is being attacked on campuses and even in law schools as too authoritarian and too insensitive to the subjective experiences and personal narratives of criminals.  The SAT exam has also been under assault for the same reasons.  As Socrates warned: extreme freedom will instill a paranoia about any kind of "master" including objective measurements of right and wrong, and of merit based forms of achievement.  But when the citizens become enslaved to their vices they'll dutifully cry out for another kind of master.

Third, is the crucial role of education, which is the underlying theme of Plato's Republic.  The ethos of American education has been for many decades saturated with a simple mantra: choice.  What's worse, those few remaining educators who chant the old, Socratic mantra of "judgment" are vilified and harassed by the modern day lotus-eaters as hateful conservatives.  Socrates predicted that all of this would happen in a democracy.  But it is judgment not choice that enables a young person to erect a citadel in the soul.  This eliminates the need for tyrants, and for bailouts too.

Finally, there is a question on the minds of many conservatives today:  How does one convince the younger generations of Americans to distrust the growth of the State?  Is it possible for Americans to recover the desire to be left alone in order "to realize our capacities and talents" as Eric Hoffer says? 

I've read that in Iran, many young people chafe at the pervasive despotism there, but when the burning desire for freedom threatens to boil over, the government in Tehran eases its restrictions on the use of personal satellite dishes.  Electronic Soma for the digital age.

Hat tip: Larrey Anderson


[i] As Max Weber noted in his classic work, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, the men who built America were guided by deferred gratification and a sense of limits, not by reckless notions of vanity, pride, and display.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Front Page News; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 111th; bhgo44; bho2009; democracy; democratcongress; democrats; edkaitz; godsgravesglyphs; government; morality; obama; plato; republic; socialism; socrates; tyranny
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1 posted on 02/16/2009 9:46:22 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Lando Lincoln; neverdem; quidnunc; .cnI redruM; Valin; King Prout; SJackson; dennisw; ...


Interesting!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.)

I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention.

You are welcome to browse the list of of truly exceptional articles I pinged to lately. Updated on February 10, 2009.  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about).

Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

2 posted on 02/16/2009 9:47:42 AM PST by Tolik
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To: marron

You might be interested to see this one


3 posted on 02/16/2009 9:48:39 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik

Good post.


4 posted on 02/16/2009 9:49:35 AM PST by sauropod (An expression of deep worry and concern failed to cross either of Zaphod's faces - hitchhiker's guid)
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To: Tolik
Short and sweet.

5 posted on 02/16/2009 9:50:15 AM PST by I see my hands (_8(|)
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To: Tolik
"In short, the boys begin to realize that justice and happiness in a community rests upon the moral condition of its citizens...Adeimantus comes to discover a dark and ominous secret: without proper moral conditioning a regime's "defining principle" will be the source of its ultimate destruction. "

And that is exactly what has happened to the USA, all of western society actually. Scarier still, is that vaccums do not stay vaccums for long. Islam is fast filling that void.

6 posted on 02/16/2009 9:52:22 AM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: Tolik

How Democrats Become Tyrants.


7 posted on 02/16/2009 9:55:37 AM PST by deannadurbin
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To: Tolik
Best thing I've read in a long time.

We have allowed the liberal left to plant the seeds of our own destruction, especially the public "education" system.

8 posted on 02/16/2009 10:03:37 AM PST by smokingfrog (Is it just my imagination, or is the water in this pot getting a little too hot?)
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To: Tolik

Re The Right To Be Left Alone....

http://gunnyg.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/the-right-to-be-left-alone/


9 posted on 02/16/2009 10:04:59 AM PST by gunnyg
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To: Tolik

“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

- Ben Franklin

10 posted on 02/16/2009 10:07:48 AM PST by Texas Fossil
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To: Tolik

Great post. The only problem I have with the author’s take is that it doesn’t go far enough in its explanation. The U.S. had a ‘hard Left’ for a long time. Two major things happened in the 1960’s, and one in 1989-91, that put us on the path to where we are today.

The first has many causes and many perspectives, but the fact that it happened and it’s effect on voting patterns and public policy are clear: the permanent radicalization of the black minority. Whether used consciously or not, overtly talked about or nervously hushed-up, race is now a huge dividing line in American politics and the Republican party is largely the White party. Again, opinions on how, why, and what to do about it are many - but it is the situation.

Second, beginning in the 60’s the nation’s culture, much of its press and its academia were taken over by Marxist and anti-capitalist, anti-traditionalist, anti-Christian and anti-white groupthink. Even then, there were times when the majority of americans could revolt against that, notably in Reagan’s era. The rallying point seemed to be the patriotism and moral clarity of the Cold War and the evil spectre of the USSR.

Third, the fall of the Soviet Union. We all thought that was a signal of victory and the end of Marxism as legitimate political theory and practice. I think it seems to have removed the example we all could point to of the utter failure and utter evil of Marxism. It also removed the term ‘communist’ and even ‘Marxist’ as effective ridicule. Somehow being an actual Nazi, or at least being thought of as one, is instant death to someone’s political, academic or cultural career (and for good reason.) But being a communist/Marxist is both able to be fashionable and somehow shielded from receiving an accurate label. Those, like us here at FR, who call people Marxists are seen as ‘nuts’ or ‘divisive’ while actual Marxists are seen as cool and ‘progressive.’ Because there’s no USSR for them to claim allegiance to or publicly back (and reveal their anti-Americanness) they are never called out as hating America in the general public.

Just my three cents worth...


11 posted on 02/16/2009 10:15:01 AM PST by Cap74 (You can disagree with me. You can attack me. Do not lie to me.)
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To: I see my hands

Very good, thanks!


12 posted on 02/16/2009 10:16:56 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik
Thank you, for this excellent article. It all seems so familiar doesn't it?

Our house of cards has collapsed; and no one wants to make any changes, that makes them change too.

It is a reality that every generation must learn from history; and for the current one, it seems that is too much trouble. So they/we are lemmings.

13 posted on 02/16/2009 10:17:18 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Tolik

When is it too late to turn around? Does Plato say anything about that?

It seems like it is way past that tipping point to me; most conservatives seem to be old codgers, like me and most others on FR, while nearly all youth are libs.


14 posted on 02/16/2009 10:20:29 AM PST by LibWhacker
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To: Tolik

Wow! Terrific homepage. Loads of great back articles, etc.,

I intend to return to it often.

Thank you.


15 posted on 02/16/2009 10:36:41 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Tolik

The problem will be that certain classes of people with have their freedoms limited by the iron hand of the government. We see it already. Liberals want a retirn of the “Fairness Doctrine”. of course what this will mean is that they will go after people like Rush and Hannity while NPR and the rest are expanded.

We saw articles posted last week from Daily Kos(saks) how they believe it’s time to do away with the Republican Party. That’s how we get to dictatorship. One segment of society gets power and uses that power to surpress the other segment of society and that circle of power tightens as oppressions expands to more and more.

It is a pattern that has been oft repeated and appears to be repeating again, right here at home.


16 posted on 02/16/2009 10:39:58 AM PST by Obadiah (Party - my house - on December 22, 2012!)
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To: LibWhacker
You need to get out more. My youngsters and their peer group are conservative christian youth, home schooled mostly, and aware of what lies at the end of the leftist multi - culti road. Take heart. There is always a remnent...

Now, the tipping point question is valid. The USA as it stands is probably too far gone at this point from transforming itself into a workers paradise without drastic action that we cannot discuss on this forum. But that does not mean the concept of self - government is over. Far from it.

17 posted on 02/16/2009 10:44:08 AM PST by L,TOWM (Liberals, The Other White Meat)
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To: Tolik

Thanks for the ping. Yes, the guy is singing my song.

Sustainable freedom is self-government, and self-government is always a moral quality. Only people who are capable of governing themselves are capable of being free. All the rest will be, must be, governed by others.

When the numbers of people within a society who are incapable of ruling themselves reaches critical mass, the society itself ceases to be free.

And how are the moral underpinnings of a free society, any society for that matter, passed from generation to generation? They are passed first and formost by the family, by the church, and in the schools. Its not necessary that everyone internalize the principles in the same way, but it is necessary that enough people internalize them by whatever means so as to keep the society on track.

The break-up of families strikes right at the heart of this. The corruption of churches does too. And the corruption of the schools is the final nail in the coffin. When only a few people still understand the guiding moral principles that allow men to govern themselves and to live free the society itself will reject freedom as a burden that they can no longer bear. They will reject it as an illusion, a fraud that some men use to make other men do their will. They will gladly throw their freedom away in an unholy alliance between the ones who want to be cared for and the ones who think they are uniquely qualified to rule the masses.

And there will never be peace, because there are always many more resentful souls who think they are uniquely qualified to rule than there are openings for rulers. And the people who expect to be cared for are never going to be satisfied with the quality of the crumbs that fall within their reach. So the result is not only slavery but endless violence and repression.


18 posted on 02/16/2009 10:44:35 AM PST by marron
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To: Tolik

marker


19 posted on 02/16/2009 10:48:27 AM PST by JDoutrider
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To: LibWhacker

I am more optimistic.

Kids almost always are more lib and rebellious. Until they grow up and get kids of their own and HAVE TO become more responsible. Some never do, of course.

I see 2 trends in different directions.

One is that taxation moves in direction of more than 50% of population paying NO federal income tax (they still pay FICA, sale taxes, gas, etc). Its dangerous because creates a situation when you can vote somebody else “for dinner”.

An opposite trend is that Internet generation get used to more choices. Tyranny limits choices. The Internet generation is conservatives’ ally in fight for liberty.

Also, its not mentioned enough, but in personal life, raising kids, etc lots of people who vote habitually Dem are more conservative than they themselves realize. A Reagan-type communication is needed to win them over. We badly losing info-war, but Reagan did not have help of Internet freedom, and he was able to win over so many people!


20 posted on 02/16/2009 10:51:20 AM PST by Tolik
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To: y'all; Nathan Zachary
Socrates warned: extreme freedom will instill a paranoia about any kind of "master" including objective measurements of right and wrong, ---
"In short, the boys begin to realize that justice and happiness in a community rests upon the moral condition of its citizens...
Adeimantus comes to discover a dark and ominous secret: without proper moral conditioning a regime's "defining principle" will be the source of its ultimate destruction. "

Our 'defining principles' can only be taught in a 'basic training' type school. -- Every 18 year old should be required to attend a constitutional boot camp before they are franchised to vote. --
-- No service, - No vote.

21 posted on 02/16/2009 10:53:53 AM PST by jtom36
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To: geologist

You are welcome.

4+ years of concentrated treasure written by the best people.


22 posted on 02/16/2009 10:56:35 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik
Wonderful post! It brings to mind a Samuel Adams quote...

"No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." - Letter to James Warren, November 4, 1775

23 posted on 02/16/2009 10:56:52 AM PST by VR-21
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To: marron

Thanks!

See my post #20 for some trends i see in our society.

There are more, of course. Large cities - that existed for a while, but grown tremendously in XX century - nessecitate dependence. When you are on your farm with a handful of other people, you depend on yourself. In the city you MUST depend on somebody else to run transport, pickup garbage, etc, etc. On the famous red-blue maps, especially more detailed - by county - you can see the blue cities and red countryside. My understanding is that the city grows is practically over. Suburbs are not rural areas, but new technologies do allow people to spread out. This trend will continue. When flying, I can’t stop getting amazed how green everything is under the wings. Few minutes, and we are out of the metro area, and then all green there. Leaving cities will work in favor of getting personally responsible for the things again. Eventually.


24 posted on 02/16/2009 11:06:57 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik

I wish I had thought of it when I began here.

You have inspired me.


25 posted on 02/16/2009 11:10:44 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: smokingfrog

ditto to that, excellent post.


26 posted on 02/16/2009 11:15:24 AM PST by johnnycap
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To: Tolik
I don't know why people get so worked up regarding the coming destruction of the USA. I mean, was it supposed to last forever? If not, then at what point would it end? Somewhere in the distant future ... or now? Why not now? What makes us and/or this time so unique that it can't happen?

Look, it's sort of like everyone coming to realize that the best way to move forward on the economy is to let the big banks fail. Likewise, the best way for us to re-establish a free market Republic is to let the current system die. Hussein is the perfect solution - let him and his lib friends bury the corpse. We can restore a New USA after the reset point.

27 posted on 02/16/2009 11:16:00 AM PST by semantic
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To: jtom36

“Our ‘defining principles’ can only be taught in a ‘basic training’ type school. — Every 18 year old should be required to attend a constitutional boot camp before they are franchised to vote. —
— No service, - No vote.”

-I agree with this and have been saying this for a long time. Citizenship should be just as hard or harder to get than a driver’s license. Also, if you don’t pay any taxes, you don’t get the right to vote. You have to have skin in the game. Voting to limit another person’s rights when you have nothing at risk is another form of tyranny.


28 posted on 02/16/2009 11:19:24 AM PST by johnnycap
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To: semantic

You make an excellent point. If the United States fails as that Russian author predicts, I’d be only too happy to chose to live in the section of former states where personal responsibility, liberty and fiscal accountability are the order of the day. Given his map, I’d say I am headed to the Southern States and Texas.

I actually would feel a lot more at peace in a smaller country with real libertarian convictions. Maybe Ron Paul might end up being Jeff Davis’ successor.LOL


29 posted on 02/16/2009 11:23:30 AM PST by johnnycap
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To: smokingfrog

One, and only one, problem is that we no longer hold our politicians accountable for what they do. If this stimulus fails, they should all go.


30 posted on 02/16/2009 11:29:43 AM PST by RC2
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To: Tolik
One is that taxation moves in direction of more than 50% of population paying NO federal income tax (they still pay FICA, sale taxes, gas, etc).

People like the idea in theory that people who have more money than they should pay more taxes. It sounds nice.

But it ignores two things. First, the rich don't really pay any taxes; the tax is built into the price of the product and you pay it when you by the gallon of milk whether you realize it or not. And the tax is paid in lost opportunities, which are hard to quantify but real.

So raise the tax on some rich guy, and watch the prices go up on everything you do, and watch the investment dry up and marvel as you find yourself unemployed, standing on the pavement as marginal businesses are pushed over the edge into failure.

And the other problem is, as you say, if a majority of the people don't pay tax (or at least they don't see the tax that they really do pay) then they have no qualms about voting to increase the tax. They aren't going to pay it (they think) someone else will.

I've always favored some kind of flat tax, but flat starting right from the bottom up. If you're a citizen, you owe the same percentage as anyone else. Rich or poor, you're a citizen. Pick a percentage, I don't care what you pick but everyone pays the same. If you want to raise the tax, fine, but you raise it on yourself too.

And I tend to favor the idea that only people who are net taxpayers should have the vote on anything to do with tax issues. If you get a welfare check, a government subsidy, a government paycheck of any kind, you don't vote on tax issues. Its a conflict of interest.

31 posted on 02/16/2009 11:34:43 AM PST by marron
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To: Cap74
Very interesting point:

Somehow being an actual Nazi, or at least being thought of as one, is instant death to someone’s political, academic or cultural career (and for good reason.) But being a communist/Marxist is both able to be fashionable and somehow shielded from receiving an accurate label.

Particularly since they are, in effect, one in the same.

Take care.

32 posted on 02/16/2009 11:38:02 AM PST by !1776!
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To: Tolik

Good article but through it all, Plato, Socrates or even the author of this piece even intimates that in its simplest form, there is the hidden hand of pure evil driving us into the abyss. IOW, NONE of this is happenstance, but by design. Man’s nature is such that without a reverence for God and Godly principles, we are automatically doomed to go the way of all previous great civilizations. The hidden hand of evil knows no compassion or remorse; its only desire is to rule.


33 posted on 02/16/2009 11:41:43 AM PST by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: A lie will travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on!)
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To: LibWhacker
"...most conservatives seem to be old codgers, like me and most others on FR..."

I'm still a young guy...it's only been about ten years since I was last in my twenties :-D

34 posted on 02/16/2009 11:46:18 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: marron

Yes and yes.

Flat tax or FairTax, I’d take any instead of our byzantine scisophrenic system.

Unfortunately, here I pessimistic. I don’t see congress voting on any reasonable solution.


35 posted on 02/16/2009 11:46:19 AM PST by Tolik
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To: Tolik
I don’t see congress voting on any reasonable solution.

No. They are voting for what they are voting for right before our very eyes. The next four years are going to be long and costly.

36 posted on 02/16/2009 11:52:28 AM PST by marron
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To: semantic
I don't know why people get so worked up regarding the coming destruction of the USA

I think it might have something to do with the N-odd million of people who will die between now and the glorious return of your "New Republic". That and the fact that tyranny is the default state for man over the last few millenia. There have only been a few short periods of just governance. So I suppose most people get worked up over the thought of millions of their fellow Americans enslaved or killed and the loss of liberty for generations. But perhaps thats just an overreaction ;p

37 posted on 02/16/2009 12:00:17 PM PST by douginthearmy (Julio is the face of the new Amerika. Time to start over.)
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To: Cap74

The Left has seized the language. Thus pederasty is now a synonym for merriment, and who’s against being merry, abortion and infanticide are choice, and who’s against choice, and Communism is progressive, and who among us is against progress?!

Oh, and so called “racism”, a concept invented in Moscow, instantly associates the “racist” with the likes of the good Dr Mendele, whereas in reality what’s called “racism” is no more than ethnic rivalry or ethnocentrism. The Left has seized the conceptualization of ideas in the culture and imposed it on us all with no opposition from the clueless Right, which has readily adopted these euphemisms and misdirections as their own (just watch the language used on this forum.)


38 posted on 02/16/2009 12:04:28 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Revolting cat!
Orwell would agree. I do too.

Is Revolting Cat! a reference to a feline acting to overthrow its masters, or an evocation of of one with a gruesome visage? You know, just curious...

39 posted on 02/16/2009 12:12:01 PM PST by Cap74 (You can disagree with me. You can attack me. Do not lie to me.)
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To: Tolik
The only part of Plato's Republic covered in today's universities are the homosexual implications of a man traveling with 2 young men.

Remember that all great men in history were gay..... that is the current thinking.

40 posted on 02/16/2009 12:14:50 PM PST by erman (Give a man a fire, warm him for one night. Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.)
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To: LibWhacker
When is it too late to turn around?

A question I also had. I couldn't think of a specific item, though I'm sure there could be many proposed. My opinion is that prior to naming Ceaser emperor, it is not too late.

It may be that the level of difficulty increases with time as this path is ventured down. As a result, the probability of success for turning around decreases with time, particularly with regard to the level of economic, political, or societal disruptions that may be associated with avoiding an inherent change in our effective form of government.

It seems like it is way past that tipping point to me;

I hope not. Share your concern, but hope not. I like to think of myself as an optomistic realist...

most conservatives seem to be old codgers, like me and most others on FR, while nearly all youth are libs.

Not sure what your definition of old codger versus youth is. Maybe I fall in between. Age 35, very busy at work (can't be home to answer mid-afternoon polling calls), three youngish children, and many friends in my same great state of life. Greater than 90% of my social circle are diehard conservatives, though we are having a lot more difficulty calling ourselves republicans these days. We still pull the trigger for R, but honestly it hasn't been all that easy.

We are not loud, we can't really take time off to protest or volunteer, we are at the point in our lives where letters to the editors can hurt our professional futures(depending on our employers or clients), we have some spare money, but prefer reducing any debt rather than shoving money down the rathole of a non-conservative republican party. We'd make available our time and money to help, but we also expect results and an intelligent approach to the issues.

More important than any of that, at least I am trying to raise my children right, and teach them well. While that might kill their chance for getting someone elses money in a future wealth redistribution stimulus package in the future, I hope they follow my lead and decide that they would rather be productive citizens and work toward voting bums out of office.

Take care.

41 posted on 02/16/2009 12:20:03 PM PST by !1776!
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To: jtom36
Our 'defining principles' can only be taught in a 'basic training' type school. -- Every 18 year old should be required to attend a constitutional boot camp before they are franchised to vote. -- -- No service, - No vote.

And if this camp is designed and run by the Dem's?

Be careful of what you wish for - you just might get it.

Not trying to be argumentative, but this is the type of statement that would fit well on DU. It is beyond the powers allowed to the government by the Constitution.

42 posted on 02/16/2009 12:29:55 PM PST by !1776!
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To: Cap74

What feline?!


43 posted on 02/16/2009 12:31:45 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: johnnycap
-I agree with this and have been saying this for a long time. Citizenship should be just as hard or harder to get than a driver’s license. Also, if you don’t pay any taxes, you don’t get the right to vote. You have to have skin in the game. Voting to limit another person’s rights when you have nothing at risk is another form of tyranny.

Disagree.

If you want to change the rules - change the Constitution via the constitutionally required process. Otherwise, please don't advocate for a buearacracy to decide what counts or doesn't count for boot camp, or passing.

Your position assumes that tax burden implies a right to vote. Should corporations have the right to vote based on their tax burden to the government? If not, why not under your plan? How about a disabled veteran? If they can no longer earn and therefore pay taxes, should they not have the right to vote. What amount of tax is adequate? Can my 7 year old vote since they pay sales tax on items I make them buy for themselves?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think you are missing your own point, and one that you have very insightfully noted:

Voting to limit another person’s rights when you have nothing at risk is another form of tyranny.

That is the issue, and you are 100% correct in my opionion. But the issue here isn't necessarily the voter in my onion, it is the actions of the representative who won the vote that is of issue.

They have for far too long limited "another persons rights" whther that be through the lack of due process in the tidal wave of administrative rules forced upon citizens, or taking their money by force through taxes.

The erosion of the rule of law, and in some cases the outright abuse of it, is the underlying problem. IMHO

44 posted on 02/16/2009 12:43:51 PM PST by !1776!
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To: Tolik

BTTT


45 posted on 02/16/2009 12:49:00 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: douginthearmy
I think it might have something to do with the N-odd million of people who will die between now and the glorious return of your "New Republic". That and the fact that tyranny is the default state for man over the last few millenia. There have only been a few short periods of just governance. So I suppose most people get worked up over the thought of millions of their fellow Americans enslaved or killed and the loss of liberty for generations. But perhaps thats just an overreaction ;p

You have captured my concerns very well.

I would add to it, that I think that those who "welcome" such events are in fact deciding to be lazy and hopin all pans out well for them.

46 posted on 02/16/2009 1:00:05 PM PST by !1776!
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To: douginthearmy

Yeah, but it’s gonna happen sooner than later, so why keep putting it off? Or do you think it’s possible to resolve these issues via the current political process? A lifetime in Calif tells me otherwise. That is, once you cross the tipping point, the resource consumers will never give up their freebies without a fight. They will do anything to keep tax paying serfs chained to the state.


47 posted on 02/16/2009 2:53:41 PM PST by semantic
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To: !1776!

see #47


48 posted on 02/16/2009 2:54:17 PM PST by semantic
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To: Tolik

btt


49 posted on 02/16/2009 4:48:04 PM PST by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: semantic
see #47

As I noted, those who believe that something is inevitable are in effect on the sidelines of history. If doing something now is useless, when will it be useful? What does waiting accomplish. I told you so is worthless if you are proclaiming such from the ruins of a once great nation.

When will those who are capable of making a living but chose to survive on the comfort of government handouts say uncle and be part of the solution?

Post #47 is right, those who enjoy the benefits of freebee's will never want to let go of them. There will always be a fight.

The bigger question is, do we avoid the fight today in order to not get our noses bloodied, or do we start today while it is only our noses at stake. Tomorrow it may be our arm, or our family.

Just because it is not easy now doesn't mean that it won't be harder later.

Personal opinion of course.

50 posted on 02/16/2009 5:08:32 PM PST by !1776!
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