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Police shoot and kill man wielding knife (ran out of beanbags, tasered too, man charged cops)
San Diego Union - Tribune ^ | 3/27/09 | Kristina Davis, Greg Gross, Angelica Martinez

Posted on 03/27/2009 7:07:22 PM PDT by NormsRevenge

MOUNT HELIX — A man armed with a large knife was shot by El Cajon police at a busy intersection Friday afternoon after numerous non-lethal attempts by officers to stop him failed.

The man, whose name has not yet been released, led police on a mile-long uphill chase on Avocado Boulevard, running all the way, said police Lt. Steven Shakowski. Police said they received a call about 11:50 a.m. about a man carrying a knife similar to a hunting knife near Chase Avenue and Avocado Boulevard in El Cajon.

The man was running with the knife and waving it around, Shakowski said. The area is near businesses, and police were concerned for the public's safety, he said. Officers followed the man up Avocado to Horizon Hills Drive. When he refused to drop the knife, they fired two stinging beanbag rounds at him. They also shot him with a Taser, an electric stun gun.

None of it stopped the man, who continued running up Avocado with the knife, Shakowski said. Two more beanbags were fired.

The man was still running up Avocado as officers fired more beanbag rounds. By the time he reached the intersection of Avocado and Fuerte Drive, just outside of El Cajon city limits, he had been hit eight times, to no effect, Shakowski said.

Fearing he might enter the businesses at the intersection, police tried to cut off the man, who had run the one-mile uphill distance in about 13 minutes, the lieutenant said. The man then raised the knife and charged at the officers. Four officers opened fire with their pistols, firing at least six shots. The man fell, mortally wounded.

The intersection of Avocado and Fuerte was expected to be closed for several hours as an investigation continues. So far, investigators don't know why the man was in the street waving the knife, Shakowski said.

Henry Martinez, a witness who was stopped at a red light at Avocado and Fuerte, said the man appeared tired and was almost stumbling.

Martinez said he didn't personally feel that the man posed an immediate threat to officers. He said he heard multiple shots fired.

Police said all the officers involved in the shooting are veterans of the department.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: California
KEYWORDS: knife; police; shoot; wielding
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Suicide by cop?

Sounds like he was on something or off something.

You never know what you are going to run into these days.

1 posted on 03/27/2009 7:07:22 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
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To: NormsRevenge
The man, whose name has not yet been released, led police on a mile-long uphill chase on Avocado Boulevard...

Not gonna say it. Wouldn't be prudent.

2 posted on 03/27/2009 7:09:12 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all. -- Texas Eagle)
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To: NormsRevenge
The man was running with the knife and waving it around,...

Didn't his momma never teach him.....

3 posted on 03/27/2009 7:10:21 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all. -- Texas Eagle)
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To: NormsRevenge
So far, investigators don't know why the man was in the street waving the knife, Shakowski said.

I'm gonna say drugs were involved, m'kay?

4 posted on 03/27/2009 7:10:47 PM PDT by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: NormsRevenge

Sounds like a righteous shoot, to say the least.


5 posted on 03/27/2009 7:11:20 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (Can't get enough of my snarking? http://twitter.com/slingsandarrows)
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To: NormsRevenge
Martinez said he didn't personally feel that the man posed an immediate threat to officers.

Maybe this helpful witness should have gone over and volunteered to subdue the man in a more gentle manner.

6 posted on 03/27/2009 7:11:29 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (American Revolution II -- overdue)
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To: NormsRevenge

If Martinez didn’t feel the man was a threat perhaps he should have jumped in and neutralized the situation. A tired man can kill you just as easily as an energetic one.


7 posted on 03/27/2009 7:11:44 PM PDT by WildcatClan (Iam fimus mos ledo ventus apparatus)
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To: NormsRevenge

Never take a knife to a gunfight.


8 posted on 03/27/2009 7:12:07 PM PDT by elkfersupper (Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Heh, 15 seconds apart. Great minds and all that.


9 posted on 03/27/2009 7:13:05 PM PDT by WildcatClan (Iam fimus mos ledo ventus apparatus)
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To: NormsRevenge

A man’s gotta know his limitations...


10 posted on 03/27/2009 7:16:52 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (What did Obama's Teleprompter know, and when did it know it...)
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To: NormsRevenge
..who had run the one-mile uphill distance in about 13 minutes..
A 13-minute mile ain't exactly settin' the world on fire. But, I'm to believe several cops dogged this guy for 13 minutes and couldn't get a knife out of his hand? That's just sad. Glad none of the good guys got hurt, though.
11 posted on 03/27/2009 7:24:06 PM PDT by Sylvester McMonkey McBean (Looking for the reset button.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

“Sounds like a righteous shoot, to say the least.”

Indeed.

However, I belive that the fine art of the nightstick takedown has been lost.....


12 posted on 03/27/2009 7:25:18 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Fight Crime. Shoot Back.)
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To: NormsRevenge

to bad it didn’t happen in Texas, could have saved him the time to run for 13 minutes.


13 posted on 03/27/2009 7:27:17 PM PDT by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
However, I belive that the fine art of the nightstick takedown has been lost....

This may well be the case. However, if a knife-wielding maniac is charging me, I too will favor efficiency over style.

14 posted on 03/27/2009 7:30:25 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (Can't get enough of my snarking? http://twitter.com/slingsandarrows)
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To: NormsRevenge

The man then raised the knife and charged at the officers.

Henry Martinez, a witness ..., said the man appeared tired and was almost stumbling.

Martinez said he didn’t personally feel that the man posed an immediate threat to officers. He said he heard multiple shots fired.

How many rounds hit him in the back?
Cops chased him for a mile? Not on foot they didn’t!


15 posted on 03/27/2009 7:34:31 PM PDT by G Larry (Obama's plan = "STEALING FROM THOSE WHO CREATE THE JOBS!")
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To: NormsRevenge
The man was still running up Avocado as officers fired more beanbag rounds. By the time he reached the intersection of Avocado and Fuerte Drive, just outside of El Cajon city limits, he had been hit eight times, to no effect, Shakowski said.

Local man turned into guacamole on Avocado. Details at 11:00.

16 posted on 03/27/2009 7:45:55 PM PDT by southernnorthcarolina (Tagline under official review.)
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To: NormsRevenge
The incident location is about a mile from my sister's house. What a lovely place San Diego has become. I moved my son to Pocatello after the Mexican mafia executed a guy 100 ft from my son's apartment door in Eastlake (Chula Vista).
17 posted on 03/27/2009 7:54:53 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: NormsRevenge
Ha! The MSNBC headline says:
Man Killed in 'Barrage' of Police Gunfire -
18 posted on 03/27/2009 7:59:40 PM PDT by smokingfrog (When the baker can't make a profit, nobody gets a piece of the pie!)
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To: NormsRevenge
You never know what you are going to run into these days.

At least he wasn't naked. I thought this would be another naked guy with a knife getting shot by the cops thread.

19 posted on 03/27/2009 8:02:31 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: NormsRevenge

“You know, beyond a certain point...enough is enough.”

20 posted on 03/27/2009 8:03:10 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?)...R.I.P.)
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To: NormsRevenge

What the police needed was a bola, like they use in Argentina. They can be easily fabbed, and with a little practice can pretty smartly immobilize a person. The only twist would be to make the ropes out of something hard to cut with a knife.


21 posted on 03/27/2009 8:04:20 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: NormsRevenge
A man armed with a large knife was shot by El Cajon police at a busy intersection Friday afternoon after numerous non-lethal attempts by officers to stop him failed.

Give him 2 points for being persistent. Too bad he forfeited the match.

22 posted on 03/27/2009 8:05:37 PM PDT by meyer (Obama is to the USA as Mugabe is to Zimbabwe.)
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To: NormsRevenge
"Subject is guacamole on Avocado....we're 10-7"
23 posted on 03/27/2009 8:07:46 PM PDT by Dumpster Baby (The chair is against the wall. John has a long mustache.)
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To: NormsRevenge
the man, who had run the one-mile uphill distance in about 13 minutes

!3 minutes? Even I can do better than a 13-minute mile, and I'm a fat 44-year old with asthma and creaky knees.

Hell, with cops shooting at me, I could probably do it in under 10:00.

24 posted on 03/27/2009 8:08:39 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: B-Chan

Those bean bags leave a heck of a welt if they hit ya solid.. I was a miler in HS, meep meeep.. but I can still wheeze and creak with the best of them now..


25 posted on 03/27/2009 8:10:12 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... Godspeed.)
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To: NormsRevenge

I drive that route a lot, and it’s a good sized hill. Once he got to Fuerte if he had crossed he could have walked into several businesses there. That’s probably why they pulled the hammer then. Thanks for posting.


26 posted on 03/27/2009 8:13:00 PM PDT by cabojoe
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To: NormsRevenge; RichInOC
Photobucket
27 posted on 03/27/2009 8:44:15 PM PDT by IYellAtMyTV (Workday Forecast--Increasing pressure towards afternoon. Rum likely by evening.)
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To: IYellAtMyTV

Oh, well done.


28 posted on 03/27/2009 8:45:41 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: RichInOC
multiple shots fired I read???

I'd like to no how many??? should the cops have not slowly escalated this abit more.

bean bags, tasers, ok, non lethal , them move up to multiple shots? not like he had a hostage at knife point here.

I would think that after the bean bags and taser failed (and not knowing why they did not all charge him at once, clubs swing) why did they not try to place one shot in the leg? ok, it dont bring him down, then try one more at the leg. You would always have the option to fire more, if the man with two shot legs still tries to run for it.

this looks to me if there was a large number of shots fired it could have been a choice by the cops to become executioners rather than defenders of the public (and the man was a member of the public, regardless of his mental condition or drugs if any)

There should have been one shot to the leg as the next step. it was not like this was a fleeing killer or anything, just one guy who was having a bad day, he should not be executed for that. that's what a large number of multiple shots would mean. untrained or not brave cops, not knowing how to control their fire? need more details until I call the cops justifed. If they were trying to hit him to kill him, they should be charged with murder in some cases

29 posted on 03/30/2009 10:21:53 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: dhm914
I would think that after the bean bags and taser failed (and not knowing why they did not all charge him at once, clubs swing) why did they not try to place one shot in the leg? ok, it dont bring him down, then try one more at the leg. You would always have the option to fire more, if the man with two shot legs still tries to run for it.

Oh, jeez...

30 posted on 03/30/2009 10:26:03 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: dhm914

What’s on TV today?


31 posted on 03/30/2009 10:29:23 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Trailerpark Badass
well, if you had a mentally ill family member would you think a slow escalation be best??
don't know all the details here but I see time and time again , mostly in liberal states, that SOME cops really like to shot. what about that guy in NYC that was producing his ID for the cops, and 4 cops shot him like a dozen bullets in him, and about a dozen more missed, he was standing in a building doorway. mistaken identity, opps!!!

i am just bring up the possibility that maybe less drastic action could have been taken, Multiple shots fire at a guy that does not have a weapon that can project much farther than his arm causes me to suspect something ain't right? Did they shoot him while he was falling on the ground?

this is too early, not enough details to decide if this was justified or not.

life was taken, I want to know if there was something else that could have been done. Life liberty etc... Could something been done to save that life? maybe, lets find out more. maybe it was justified, lets find out?

32 posted on 03/30/2009 10:36:25 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

I dont get TV Guide, cant you afford your own????


33 posted on 03/30/2009 10:37:38 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: dhm914
Notice how all the police in the shooting are “veterans of the Department”. tell me, how many police that have worked one day on the job NOT be veterans? So "veteran cops" are ok to kill like that, and non-veterans are not?
34 posted on 03/30/2009 10:43:13 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: NormsRevenge
I wonder why web guns aren't utilized in these circumstances?


35 posted on 03/30/2009 10:47:09 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (Communist China is doing more to foster capitalism in their country than our politicians are doing.)
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To: dhm914
i am just bring up the possibility that maybe less drastic action could have been taken

Uh, like tasers and beabags?

Multiple shots fire at a guy that does not have a weapon that can project much farther than his arm causes me to suspect something ain't right?

You do know that a knife is a "lethal weapon." The fact that you try to minimize its danger tells me you're talking out of your ass.

Use of force doctrine in any PD is that, when confronted with a threat that justifies use of lethal force, you use the amount of force required to end the threat.

When the knife-wielding lunatic escapes, while cops are trying to take out his moving legs, to, say, decapitate a 5 year-old girl, the problems with your tactics will be made apparent.

Police aren't mental health workers, nor are they daredevils or kamikazes. They are (hopefully) public servants tasked with maintaining public order and doing what they can to protect the public at large. They are not required to risk their own lives and safety to ensure the most peaceful possible outcome.

Whatever this person's problem was, the mistakes, as tragic as they are, were made long before his encounter with the police. Shooting to wound, especially the legs, is wrong tactically for many reasons.

36 posted on 03/30/2009 10:52:48 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: dhm914
maybe it was justified, lets find out?

Here's a tip: if you run at police with a knife, after being shot with bean bags and tasered, the vast majority of the public will view your death by police gunfire as justified.

37 posted on 03/30/2009 10:57:21 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: dhm914
Sorry, but you are wrong about the shot to the leg. That is not the way to do it, you either shoot to kill or you don't shoot. Cops are taught that way and it is the correct way. Your way would get many cops killed needlessly. However, I see many things wrong with this story. One: The guy was running, uphill, where was their motorized transportation? Didn't have a car they could use to cut him off? He didn't seem to be attacking anyone simply running and waving a knife. Doesn't sound like normal behavior but hardly a killing offense, no more so than if I was running while carrying openly.

Merely having a knife in your posession isn't a crime, or shouldn't be anyway. Running is also no crime. There were many avenues open to these cops that they didn't take, one I already mentioned, the second would be too wait until he got closer, if he was charging, and all of them use their night sticks on him, disarming him first.

He was killed with no violent act committed by him and I always have a problem with that. Had he been armed with a gun and pointed it at the cops, fine, but pointing a knife doesn't have quite the danger aspect of pointing a gun.

Until I here more of this story, if ever, I will say these cops were not justified in shooting a man armed with a knife in this situation, unlike the story of the guy killing his sisters when killing him saved the life of one of the sisters.

38 posted on 03/30/2009 10:59:04 AM PDT by calex59
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To: calex59
From the article:

Fearing he might enter the businesses at the intersection, police tried to cut off the man, who had run the one-mile uphill distance in about 13 minutes, the lieutenant said. The man then raised the knife and charged at the officers. Four officers opened fire with their pistols, firing at least six shots. The man fell, mortally wounded.

Seems justified to me.

39 posted on 03/30/2009 11:02:26 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: dhm914

They should’ve just shot the knife out of his hand.


40 posted on 03/30/2009 11:04:18 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: OB1kNOb

That’s how I pick up chicks.


41 posted on 03/30/2009 11:04:45 AM PDT by SIDENET (President Obama's teleprompter has issued a stern warning to corporate executives)
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To: calex59

A person with a knife can cover at least 21 feet of distance before a skilled gun handler can clear leather and get an (one) aimed shot off. Service pistols are not nuclear weapons, and quite often do not result in one-shot stops, particularly with those on drugs or mentally ill. So when your first shot either misses, or fails to stop the assailant as he rushes you and cuts your throat, you’ll have a few seconds before expiring to congratulate yourself on your restraint.


42 posted on 03/30/2009 11:09:39 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
They should’ve just shot the knife out of his hand.

LOL.

43 posted on 03/30/2009 11:10:16 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: dhm914

Guns are lethal force. If you shoot someone, you shoot to kill. That’s it.

You don’t shoot people in the leg. Even a shot to the leg has a very high chance of causing a fatal wound. Nick the femoral artery and the guy will bleed out very quickly.


44 posted on 03/30/2009 11:11:25 AM PDT by MediaMole
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To: dhm914
You do not shoot at the legs because you might miss and kill someone, and you would be screaming the loudest here that how the officer should be charged and convicted if he had. I can make that assumption from your post.

This is not Hollywood. You shoot center mass to stop the threat. If center mass does not work, you then take a head shot. Anyone with any firearms experience knows that.

45 posted on 03/30/2009 11:11:26 AM PDT by utahson
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To: MediaMole
Even a shot to the leg has a very high chance of causing a fatal wound.

Hardly. I wouldn't even count on a leg shot from a pistol to immobilize the attacker. Even rifle shots to the pelvis are not reliable to stop an attacker.

But I agree with your larger point. Once the decision to use lethal force has been made, that force will be used until the threat is ended.

46 posted on 03/30/2009 11:17:01 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: Trailerpark Badass

Exactly. A knife at 21 feet is as dangerous as a suspect with a gun. It is well known that gang members in prison practice and plan to charge from 21 feet, bent at the waste and reach down and touch one hand on the ground momentarily as they charge because the officer trains to shoot center mass. By doing this the criminal will be below the center of mass height, if their hand actually touches the ground when they charge and the officer’s first shot will miss them.


47 posted on 03/30/2009 11:20:46 AM PDT by utahson
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To: utahson
And think some people here are confusng killing the person and stopping the threat. It's one thing to shoot someone and have them die, eventually. The problem is what happens in the interim.

Also, some people here seem to have Hollywood-influenced conceptions of what service pistols are capable of, either with reagrd to accuracy in high stress encounters, or with "stopping power."

Photobucket

This guy took a 9mm round TO THE FOREHEAD, but still had to be restrained physically by multiple officers.

48 posted on 03/30/2009 11:29:08 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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To: Trailerpark Badass
and shooting to kill is a better idea?

When your defense for the act of killing is that it's in Police training, thats not right. If police only use their training rules, not common sense, they do not deserve to be on the force. If these guys decided to kill this man when there was another option, then they have broken there duty to uphold the Constitution, which protects life.

I also never stated that the knife is not a deadly weapon. I was pointing out that its effective range is very small compared to the gun. That being so, the police can shot from a distance much greater than the range of the knife, and hence could shot one at the time making a wounding hit. If that failed, while still out of effective range of the knife, they could then escalate to the kill him now mind set.

Keep in mind there are basically two living witnesses viewpoints that were reported on. #1 from the shooting police officers, and #2 from the civilian who claims the man was not an immediate danger. Posters on this site stated that that witness is not qualified to make that statement, something akin to only a police officer who is trained can make that determination, Ha, are not most people expected (via our Right to bear arms)to be able to judge behavior of people? Cant civilians have “street smarts”? The Founding Fathers believed so, and did not restrict your Rights for fear you have not gone thru police training in judging situations.

Please dont tell me you believe only the trained elites are capable of deciding life and death matters, and all other opinions must be discounted based on the fact that they dont have training in “police thought” authored by some liberal.
Remember Police drag away pro-life protesters, that are urging woman and girls to not kill their baby. Cops are sent to round us up when we try to save lives. If only we had thinking cops that held the words of the Constitution and Bill of Rights above there liberal political masters. Cops have protected baby killing abortionists clinics. Using the police to do such immoral things is starting to effect the police mentality across the ranks, it is perverted, and will get worse as more good cops retire, and more wacked out liberal are appointed as chiefs. Cops with morals are fired if they express it, they got to work with affirmative action gays, they got to do thing that are against morals, no wonder so many are becoming corrupt. How many Pro-life protesters do you have to arrest to get into hell?

When will the cops round you up? how long did it take for the Berlin Police force to start rounding up folks because of race? I will tell you how long, about as long as it took the Nazi party loyal police chief to sign the order. The cops at that point were armed, mindless, robots, only following orders. The moral good ones had been rooted out.

what if the cops all said we uphold the Founding fathers intent, we will get criminals, investigate crooked politicians, and arrest, we refuse to enforce anti 2nd Admemdment laws, refuse to protect abortionists, refuse to enforce punitive tax laws that are hurting the folks? what if cops used smarts instead of robot actions?

back on this, lets see what happens, was it two shots, or 20? was he shot while on the ground or standing? was he just standing, or running towards people when shot?

a person died today, murder or justified, lets not jump to conclusion and say the police are right, and the civilian witness is not credible based on his civilianess.

Never take anything from the government at face value, always investigate.

49 posted on 03/30/2009 11:34:25 AM PDT by dhm914
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To: dhm914
I also never stated that the knife is not a deadly weapon. I was pointing out that its effective range is very small compared to the gun. That being so, the police can shot from a distance much greater than the range of the knife, and hence could shot one at the time making a wounding hit. If that failed, while still out of effective range of the knife, they could then escalate to the kill him now mind set.

All I have to say to this is, you first, Steve Austin.

As for all your other irrelevant conjecture, meh.

50 posted on 03/30/2009 11:56:27 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (Happiness is a choice!)
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