Skip to comments.McVeigh reference prompts responseDavid Schippers contends OKC bomber part of Islamic,
Posted on 04/23/2009 4:19:29 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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Your friend knows that unshaped charges, which that truck bomb was, explode with equal force in all directions.
That’s simple physics.
The Murrah building was reinforced concrete construction full of intertwined reinforcing steel.
The front facade would have come down, but that building fell apart almost all the way to the back column bay.
Why didn’t that happen across the street? There was no resistance to the blast force as it crossed the street, unlike the Murrah building which would have resisted the blast.
The truck might have taken down the first bay of the building, but not all the way to the back.
A wooden building, a dryvit faced building with steel studding yes, but not one of reinforced concrete.
Not the size and location of those columns.
Otherwise, Controlled Demolition Inc. could implode buildings by parking a truck outside a building and bring it down.
Doesn’t happen that way.
“You are either incredably naive, or incredibly stupid.”
You people are demented. You sound like typical conspiracy nuts. You have absolutely no evidence to support your thesis, so you pose questions based on misinformation, then claim you have proven something. To support your conspiracy there would have had to have been hundreds of people involved, all of whom have gone along with the worst coverup in American history. This is absolutely no different than the idiotic theory that planted explosives brought down the twin towers. You and Rosie are kinfolk. We can’t even keep the waterboarding of three terrorists off the front page and you presume we could hide a massive conspiracy to bring down a federal building.
HTF do you know? The fact is you don't. Do you have a degree in anything besides Basket Saving? You don't know anything more about my acquaintance than you do about explosives. Your bloviating is an embarrassment to FreeRepublic.
“My only point is that there are experts with different opinions about this and if you’re relatively unwashed regarding explosives as I am”
I am not unwashed about explosives, but it is irrelevant. The experts on the scene had absolutely no doubt what brought the building down. Do you honestly believe that the experts on the scene were wrong or covered up the truth because they were ordered to?
McVeigh and Nichols were guilty. It is a shame that we did not learn more about their connections with other terrorist groups.I agree with you on both points: they did it and others were involved.
What I don't understand is why neither of them tried to avert the death penalty by screaming loudly "I'll tell you who put me up to this if you let me live!" at their trial.
The fact that NEITHER of them did it, is evidence, in my mind, of lack of a strong connection to "others".
And I say that believing that there was SOME kind of connection.
But then why wouldn't they sing to save their skins? They weren't jihadists. They weren't going to the land of 72 virgins. Why, then?
Of course, something that points strongly to a government coverup is how QUICKLY their death penalties were carried out. No other death sentences in this country ever get carried out so quickly.
“I tell my liberal friends it is about ideas and issues, not personal attacks.”
Accusing the good people who investigated this thing of somehow being involved in a coverup is the ultimate in disrespect. Some ideas don’t deserve respect.
I’ve read Davis’ book. I think Mcveigh was used and greatly involved. However, there was great evidence of Iraqi Guard involvement also.
What sticks with me in that book is that one of the “persons of interest” (an Iraqi) left the Oklahoma City & then was employed at the Boston Logan Airport. Coincdence?
Also, why was McVeigh executed (and willing to be) to quickly, especially since there are persons on death row for year.
I strongly recommend reading Davis’ book. She was the first reporter on the scene & followed it. It is very well researched.
Do you have a degree in Physics? (I do.) I do not think of myself as an idiot. I do not believe that we have anything close to the full story about what happened in Oklahoma City. But unlike you, and others here, I have had a chance to pose questions about the event to an expert with no motive to try to fool me (He's very much on the FR side!) and I thought he had answers for all my questions. Some of those questions were specifically about Partin's analysis which I think I presented to him. This wasn't a four minute talk we had, and I believe we subsequently followed up with email back and forth.
So simple that all the demo experts on the scene either lied or weren’t as smart as you.
The idiotic bantering on this thread is NOT any different from the idiots who claim 9/11 was a conspiracy by Bush to start a war and to profit. Unbelievable idiots.
The fact that they didn't explains how solid the case was.
It was the FBI in conjunction with the ATF, Skull and Bones, and the Illuminati. What actually happened is that Bush Sr. flew an SR71 into the building. It was done to cover up the DEA plot to smuggle drugs into black neighborhoods.
It’s all there in the UFO files.
The whole building didn't come down. Only the front part, next to where the truck with the bomb was.
Please provide a link or two you think relevant that indicates who these experts are and what their opinions are.
“Of course, something that points strongly to a government coverup is how QUICKLY their death penalties were carried out.”
It wasn’t a “THEIR” (plural) it was a him. You have theories based on the execution of more than one person. How correct is the rest of your theory when you don’t even have the simplest facts straight. Only McVeigh was put to death for the crime. McVeigh waived his right to an appeal and thus the government had no alternative but to put him to death. The government can’t force someone to appeal their verdict and in those very rare cases, the next date set for the execution must be carried out.
Is Jayne Davis around anymore? Or is she still in hiding?
“Please provide a link or two you think relevant that indicates who these experts are and what their opinions are.”
Oh, here we go with the next phase of the conspiracy theory. “Send me links to your experts and I’ll send you links to my experts.” I have no idea who they were but it is self apparent that a lot of experts were involved. You don’t investigate a bombing of this magnitude without demo experts going through the scene, figuring out what caused it, what the chemicals involved were, and where the point of detonation was. Had it been as obvious as you say it was, most of those guys would have been the first to say the building could not have been brought down by the truck bomb. Unless, of course, they were all part of some vast conspiracy to cover it up.
That says it all!
“There were several whiteness’s that said they saw a rocket hit the plane.”
And it has been shown beyond any doubt that there was no rocket. It was debris from the plane that appeared to be a rocket. No one saw the rocket before it hit the plane, they all said they looked up when they heard the explosion and saw the rocket trail. That plane was reassembled and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Not one trace of explosives was found anywhere on the plane. Again, hundreds of FBI experts were involved in the investigation and to believe all of them conspired to cover it up is fantasy. They would have had to be brought into a room, told that even though they all knew it was a rocket, they were all to go along with the coverup and claim it was an electrical failure due to improperly harnessed wires.
I have said before and will believe till the day I die,
That 9-11 was meant to happen on Al Gore’s watch and was meant to be blamed on the “VRWC”.
“That says it all!”
Ahh, the typical conspiracy retort. Since I can’t provide names of the actual people on the ground, then clearly your information must be more valid. Ok, provide me with the names of the demo experts on the sight who have lied and covered up how the building was brought down. I am sure you have no idea.
ATF was in charge, but the FBI was also involved. It seems that there were SO MANY double agents at Elohim City, where much of the plotting took place, that there may actually have been no outside terrorists at all, ONLY double agents.
The CIA was also involved, apparently, to the extent that Lt. Andreas Strassmeier, with high up connections in the German government and in the country illegally without a green card, was also at Elohim City, and took three trips to OKC, in Nov 94, December 94, and February 95. The FBI knew about him but let him leave the country after the bombing and only bothered to give him a perfunctory phone call a year later. His father belonged to the Christian Democratic Party and was party chief in Berlin in the l980s and then parliamentary Secretary of State to Helmut Kohl in 1989-91. Hardly an extremist. Nothing has been heard from him since. The obvious theory is that he was helping to connect German and American intelligence for the CIA.
He told Evans-Pritchard in an interview afterwards that he worked for German Intelligence, and also that he did undercover work for the German police. He had connections with American Colonel Petruskie, who did intelligence work in Vietnam and then was brought back into active service during the Gulf War—working with Islamic intelligence.
All of this is documented in a number of articles and books. This particular information comes from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, one of the few mainstream reporters who actually bothered to investigate this business. As I mentioned, he is now chief economics reporter for the Telegraph (UK), and has no obvious axe to grind.
Certainly McVeigh and Nichols were involved. They were guilty. But they were the fall guys, while the other players, including the elusive “third” bomber, were permitted to escape untouched and unquestioned.
Clinton had thoroughly corrupted the FBI by that point, and the ATF was fighting for its life against politicians who wanted to close it down. Of course they were happy to do what he wanted.
Do I have a degree in Physics? No, I do have a degree in civil engineering, and have actually overseen the construction of buildings and assisted in the design of buildings.
The lateral force required to pulverize reinforced concrete columns in the size and number of those in the Murrah Building did not come from the truck bomb, because most of the force of the bomb did not go toward the building.
If the field of force of the explosion is a 360 degree circle or sphere, because an unshaped charge travels in all directions at the time of detonation, then at most 90 degrees of the circle or one fourth of the sphere engaged the Murrah Building, meaning that only one fourth of the explosive force took down the building.
The other three quarters of the force was wasted in directions away from the building, ie down and away from the building.
A SHAPED charge of that mass of ammonia nitrate and fuel MIGHT have done the trick, but still highly doubtful. There was no way to shape the explosive force.
The lateral force of the blast had to severe the first floor columns back three or four bays into the building, and across most of the front of the building. As the blast goes farther into the building, it has less force,because the force is used up as the front columns are encountered and bypassed.
So the force required to do the actual damage done was far in excess of what a rental truck could hold, using only one fourth of the available explosive force.
That is why from day one I was not buying the official story. And at the time, I was responsible for the HQ facilities and security for a very large corporation, which included thousands of employees and high rise buildings.
...a counter-terrorism group has posted a video statement by a prominent Democrat investigator who contends the Oklahoma City bomb plot was hatched not by right-wingers but by Islamic jihadists. David Schippers, the chief counsel for the 1998 impeachment trial of President Clinton, probed the bombing with investigative reporter Jayna Davis, author of "The Third Terrorist: The Middle Eastern Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing", by WND Books.
Lt. Andreas Strassmeier, with high up connections in the German government and in the country illegally without a green card.
The obvious theory is that he was helping to connect German and American intelligence for the CIA.
Where do you this stuff from? If was working with or for the CIA he doesn’t need a green card. If he worked for German intelligence he would come to the US under the auspices of his government and not even need a visa, much less a green card. This total lack of understanding of even the simplest of things seems rampant in all the conspiracy posts.
I didn’t say the whole building came down. I was drawing a parallel to why truck bombs are not effective ways to bring down a building. Too many variables and a lot of wasted undirected force.
The only expert whose testimony was actually presented at the trial was Brigadier General Partin, who had a lifetime’s experience as a demolition expert. Regretably, the FBI scoffed at his report and the trial judge was persuaded to ignore it. No other expert evidence was presented on that issue.
“A SHAPED charge of that mass of ammonia nitrate and fuel MIGHT have done the trick, but still highly doubtful.”
Ok, please explain how our two embassies in Africa were brought down with the same kinds of truck bomb. How were the Kohbar towers brought down by a truck bomb that was in the parking lot. How was our embassy in Beirut brought down by a smaller truck bomb than the one in OKC?
I told you where I got it from. Try not to be so obtuse and ignorant. It’s on the record—FBI records, travel records, published in the Telegraph and never denied, and in Evans-Pritchard’s book.
No, he didn’t need to come into the country openly because someone, presumably the CIA, let him in covertly. And his line of work included intelligence liaison.
I talked to people who did detailed analysis in, around, above, and below that site and other nearby sites, and they assured me the truck blew UP, part of the building (2nd and 3rd floors) went UP, then it suffered some serious collapse as the heavier pieces (entire floors) came back down, and debris fell in, on, around, over and beyond the building.
Check out where the truck's main axle ended up. You and half a dozen strong men would have trouble lifting that sucker. This explosion tossed it around like a tinkertoy.
Your General Partin discusses the inability of the explosion to seriously damage the main columns in the upper floor, He did not discuss what happens when the 1st and 2nd floors rise up a couple of inches, and then drop abruptly.
As we know from this and other building demolitions, when that happens EVERYTHING above those floors is broken loose and it falls to Earth.
As an example, check out the Skyline Towers accident (quite close to where I'm now sitting). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_Towers_collapse
What happened was a couple of top floors simply tore loose and fell onto the floor before. That set up a pancake situation and the whole building collapsed ~ no explosives at all.
Murrah had a similar experience when the second floor gave way (disconnected from the main supports) and started a pancake below, and above (stuff invariably gets pushed and pulled into the event).
The explosion per se didn't have to do all that much work for the building to self-destruct ~ just like Skyline Towers.
A related event in Kansas City involved a suspended walkway. When one nut on one suspension column gave way, the whole thing collapsed and many people were killed and injured.
The Twin Towers of the WTC in New York also began pancaking.
I am speaking for myself, and giving the reasons for my opinions.
As far as the OKC bombing, it is very difficult to decide who is telling the truth, because all of the facts have never been released in this case, and many of the facts we do have don't add up to the government's conclusions.
Foreign construction is no way the same as domestic construction, in standards, materials or design.
Every situation is different. Bomb materials may not have been the same, nor in similar amounts.
You have to judge each situation on the individual facts.
Wild ass guess gone wrong. - By the time I was 20 I had removed floors in two multi-story reinforced concrete cement storage buildings in order to convert them into mushroom farms. I know how reinforced concrete behaves, and I know how to position a series of charges to effectively shear an entire floor at once, and simultaneously shatter it to shovelable rubble without damaging the vertical walls.
General Partin's report was affirmation of what I saw the day that it happened, and made perfect sense with what I already knew from practice. I don't have the slightest idea what you and Rosie have to do with this, but I know that it took about 12 to 15 people to do the job if you include the truck bomb into the mix, but that the truck was completely unnecessary as to the damage done to the building.
Conspiracy? - If you haven't observed that conspiracies are the only way that anything gets done here you're truly blind. You're certainly not any student of history.
Who was the woman reporter that was working with him on that. Hannity should have her on. Matter of fact both her and David. I’ve always had a lot of respect for David Shippers. He’s a straight shooter.
I’ve used and made enough explosives to understand the basics of the Murrah explosions.
I don't have time to read it again.
That much is right, but the rest of your rant is BS. - The OKC fire officials said early on on TV that the columns had been cut, and that there had been multiple charges in the basement. They even allowed the TV news crew to shoot some footage of unexploded charges that had been found. All of the well known facts of this seem to have slipped by you.
Engineers can differ on the interpretation of data and conclusions.
That’s why you have, at trial, experts for each side that prepare expert reports.
I have written a number of reports used in legal cases where the expert reports of other engineers was successfully rebutted.
An ASCE report is nice, but not necessarily the last word on the subject.
Because they were completely converted ideologes. - They thought that they were serving a higher purpose. They were "useful idiots."
I think that McVeigh and Nichols were played as “useful idiots” by at least one of our enemies.
It would not be that hard to find disgruntled Americans, and then offer some help in bomb training and the like. Your “useful idiots” might not ever even realize that they are being used.
Who are you talking about? Nobody on scene said anything like the gibberish propaganda that you're pushing.
And that is exactly what General Partin did; isn't that a coincidence!
With that gone, the floors fell quite easily as floors always do when their supporting structures give way, and when they fall they tear up jack don't they.
That specific nonsense was completely rebutted by General Partin, and fully explained through his diagrams and calculations. The stated action was impossible without first completly removing the restraint of the columns. You're just repeating disproven garbage.
What do you imagine happened to it?
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