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'Gun violence': why are other forms of violence preferable?
St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner ^ | 19 May, 2009 | Kurt Hofmann

Posted on 05/20/2009 4:35:48 AM PDT by marktwain

One puzzling characteristic of citizen disarmament advocates is their bizarre apparent belief that "gun violence" is somehow "worse" than other forms of violence. One would think that being stabbed, beaten, bludgeoned, strangled, etc. to death would be just as bad as being shot to death, but apparently that's not a universally held belief.

I was reminded of this peculiar attitude yesterday when reading "New York's Gun Battle," an article in the Gotham Gazette about current attempts to make gun laws in New York state even more restrictive than they are now (the Brady Campaign ranks New York the 6th most draconian state in the nation):

Bloomberg's push to rid New York City of illegal guns has seen results. The number of guns recovered from crime scenes in the city dropped by 13 percent from last year. The number of people shot to death dropped from 347 in 2007 to 292 in 2008. Overall, murders increased from 2007 to 2008, but only due to an increase in crimes committed with knives.

The implication is that Mayor Bloomberg's anti-gun jihad has been successful, despite an increase in murders, simply because fewer of those murders were committed with guns. Somehow, we are to believe that murders committed with knives are less tragic than those committed with guns. That's something in which to take comfort in your last seconds of consciousness, as you bleed out from your slashed carotid artery.

So as not to appear to be picking on the Gotham Gazette, I should point out that the above paragraph is merely a particularly illustrative example of my point. Another example can be found in the fact that in an average year, approximately half of the deaths by gunshot in the U.S. are suicides. These deaths are very often lumped in with the "gun violence" statistics, despite the rather questionable characterization of suicide as "violence." One does not, for instance, generally hear of a person who washes down a fistful of valium with a fifth of vodka as having committed "pharmaceutical violence," or of a swan dive off a penthouse balcony described as "gravitational violence."

But I digress. Let us not quibble with the notion of classifying the deliberate shooting of oneself to death as "gun violence," despite the fact that other methods of suicide are rarely, if ever, thought of as being "violent" acts. Instead, let us consider the fact that in Japan, where private ownership of firearms is regulated to an extent that even extremist anti-gun organizations like the Violence Policy Center only dream of, suicide rates are significantly higher than in the U.S. At least, though, very few of those suicides are committed with firearms. Apparently that is something from which the Japanese should take comfort.

Speaking of the Violence Policy Center, another example would be that organization's recent press release ranking states by gun ownership rate and "gun death" rate, and attempting to show a correlation (utterly ignoring the fact that correlation does not necessarily imply causation). That press release is also reticent about the fact that some of the states with high rates of "gun violence" also have high rates of murder committed without guns.

VPC also failed to mention that Alaska's non-gun murder rate is higher than its gun murder rate, despite widespread gun ownership in the state, and that Louisiana and Nevada also are among the highest five states in terms of their non-gun murder rates.

It's almost as if only "gun murders" count.

I could go on--the soaring rates of violence in the U.K. in the wake of draconian gun laws, Chicago's status of "murder capital" of the U.S., despite (?) a near total ban of privately owned handguns, Washington D.C.'s frequent ownership of that same title, concurrent with that city's even more restrictive gun laws, etc., but the point I really want to make is somewhat different, although related.

That point is that not all violence is created equal. That is to say, although violence is something that any moral person strives to avoid, some violence--defensive violence--is not only morally acceptable, it is necessary. When a 105 lb. woman shoots a 250 lb. would-be rapist, violence has certainly been committed, but evil has been defeated. When an 80-year-old man shoots the young thug who has decided that mugging isn't enough--that he needs to experience the "fun" of taking a life--that's violent, too, but it's far from wrong.

Some would have us "imagine a world without guns." I fully support that idea--do so. Imagine a world in which the strong dominate the weak, the old and infirm are ruled by the young and ruthless, and a woman must belong to a strong man in order to ensure her safety.

That's not a world in which I wish to live. There will always be violence, and guess what--that violence is almost never initiated by the 105 lb. woman, the 80-year-old man, or the wheelchair-bound paraplegic. Sometimes, "gun violence" provides peaceable people their only hope of survival.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 0bama; 0bamaisfailing; banglist; bigteapartyjuly4; bitterwhiteguy; buygoldnow; buygunsnow; clinger; donttreadonme; givemeliberty; guns; jointhenra; keepthechange; knife; livefreeordie; nranow; rememberthealamo; time2partyagain; truthmatters0; violence
I would say that violence is neutral, like gravity. It can be used for good or evil. It is simply one aspect of reality.
1 posted on 05/20/2009 4:35:49 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain; Joe Brower

I’d rather live in a society where the old, small and weak can own an “equalizer,” than in one where thugs and gangs rule by numbers and brute strength.


2 posted on 05/20/2009 4:39:18 AM PDT by Travis McGee ("Foreign Enemies And Traitors" pre-orders are being mailed out.)
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To: marktwain

Guns put teeth into liberty.

It’s difficult to have an uprising with another weapon.

It always comes down to the PERSON. A gun doesn’t hop into your pocket and shoot people by itself. The same applies to a knife, rock or any other weapon. So banning guns won’t stop murders.


3 posted on 05/20/2009 4:40:47 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh
So banning guns won’t stop murders.

Nope, but it sure makes resisting tyranny a lot harder. And those in Washington are not stupid, evil but not stupid, so they are fully aware of the facts.

4 posted on 05/20/2009 4:46:21 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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To: marktwain

Actually, one could argue that “gun violence” demonstrates a lesser degree of depravity than other kinds of violence. Which is “worse,” a teen gang banger who pulls a trigger in an instant of detached, impersonal impulse, or someone who abducts a victim and rapes, tortures and kills him or her over a period of days using a variety of non-gun implements?

The concept of “gun crimes” is nothing more than an attempt to disarm people and create a victim class who will be more than ever dependent on government for protection. “Gun crimes,” the concept of criminalizing the use of the tool rather than the act, is designed to make gun ownership, in general, riskier and more trouble than it’s worth.


5 posted on 05/20/2009 4:48:12 AM PDT by Liberty Ship ("Lord, make me fast and accurate.")
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To: marktwain

Let’s cut the BS. TPTB don’t give a crap if we all bludgeon, stab, beat, etc. each other to death. They just don’t want us to have weapons in our hands which would give us a chance to resist their tyranny.


6 posted on 05/20/2009 4:53:53 AM PDT by thecabal (Hey Obama, when you gonna start sharin' the sacrifice?)
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To: marktwain

The propagandists in the DBM and their leftist fellow travellers prefer the term “gun violence” because it establishes a negative connotation about guns. In addition, the juxtaposition of “gun” with “violence” establishes the impression that ALL gun activity is, by necessity, borne out of an act of violence.

Through terminology such as “gun violence”, the left is trying to convince someone that all guns are bad and should be banned.

However, the writer makes a great point about “pharmaceutical violence” and “gravitational violence”.


7 posted on 05/20/2009 4:55:23 AM PDT by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: marktwain

Gun “violence” is much more impersonal. One doesn’t have to touch the victim, nor be particularly physically close. Running away tends not to work.


8 posted on 05/20/2009 5:08:39 AM PDT by Paladin2 (Big Ears + Big Spending --> BigEarMarx, the man behind TOTUS)
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To: Travis McGee

The recent sale of guns and ammo make me think most Americans think this way.


9 posted on 05/20/2009 5:17:36 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective.)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
"One puzzling characteristic of citizen disarmament advocates is their bizarre apparent belief that "gun violence" is somehow "worse" than other forms of violence."

This is a valid point that many of us here on FR have been making for many, many years.

Why is "gun" violence treated like something special? Because the very term "gun violence" is nothing less than propaganda with the end-game being a state-owned monopoly on force.

It's not hard to figure at all once one realizes what the true purpose is.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

10 posted on 05/20/2009 5:19:12 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: nmh

“Never Forget, even for an instant, that the one and only reason anybody has for taking your gun away is to make you weaker than he is, so he can do something to you that you wouldn’t allow him to do if you were equipped to prevent it. This goes for burglars, muggers, and rapists, and even more so for policemen, bureaucrats, and politicians.”


11 posted on 05/20/2009 5:21:06 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: Joe Brower

-”Did you know that 65% of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by handguns?”— Gloria
—”Would it make you feel any better little girl, if they was pushed out windows?”— Archie Bunker


12 posted on 05/20/2009 5:22:35 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: marktwain

“Would you rather they were all pushed out of windows?”


13 posted on 05/20/2009 5:23:10 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Joe Brower
citizen disarmament advocates

So, is that their new moniker because it sounds nicer than Gun Control Advocates?

You know, like now it's climate change rather than global warming because it just feeeeels nicer.

14 posted on 05/20/2009 5:26:49 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: marktwain

Enjoyed this article because it wasn’t the same old usually written.

Nice job.


15 posted on 05/20/2009 5:27:27 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought (I once had an awkward moment just to seen how it felt.)
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To: MrB

Great minds!


16 posted on 05/20/2009 5:29:54 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: marktwain

“I would say that violence is neutral, like gravity. It can be used for good or evil. It is simply one aspect of reality.”

True enough, and I’m a major gun advocate. I suspect if guns were somehow confiscated in the US, easily made homebrewed explosives would become popular to create mayhem. All that said, though, the difference between a gun and every other method mentioned is the potential for innocent bystanders to get hurt, due to the range capability of guns.

So, here’s my public service announcement for today:

1) Always treat the gun as if it’s loaded.
2) Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
4) Know your target and what’s beyond.

The good news is that in a recent poll I saw, more than half of Americans support gun rights, an all time high.

The bad news is that I saw some folks shooting the other day, and a few of them had trouble keeping half their shots on a full size silhouette at ten feet. Not good if you’re downrange. If you’re going to carry, learn to shoot well!

(BTW Mark, love your work! heh)


17 posted on 05/20/2009 5:31:12 AM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: agere_contra

That has to be one of the best quotes... I like these too:

“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but you are one dumb Polock.”— Archie Bunker (to Mike)

“Jesus was a Jew, yes, but only on his mother’s side.”— Archie Bunker

“We didn’t crawl out from under no rocks. We didn’t have no tails. And we didn’t come from monkeys you atheist pinko meathead.”— Archie Bunker


18 posted on 05/20/2009 5:33:50 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: Puppage
“citizen disarmament advocates”

I'll just go with “fascists”

19 posted on 05/20/2009 5:36:14 AM PDT by east1234 (It's the borders stupid! My new enviromentalist inspired tagline: cut, kill, dig and drill)
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To: marktwain
When I spent some time in Australia, I was surprised at the number of people who were beaten to death by hammers, golf clubs, and cricket bats.

These seemed like unpleasant ways to go. Once in a while someone would be shot, but guns are not so common Down Under, so most murder victims aren't so lucky there.

20 posted on 05/20/2009 5:39:11 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (We are a ruled people, serfs to the Federal Oligarchy -- and the Tree of Liberty thirsts)
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To: Travis McGee

“I’d rather live in a society where the old, small and weak can own an “equalizer,” than in one where thugs and gangs rule by numbers and brute strength.”

Yes, having now actually read the article:

‘God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal’
- Ann Coulter’s version of the old saw


21 posted on 05/20/2009 5:39:37 AM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: Joe Brower
Why is "gun" violence treated like something special?

i prefer criminals with guns for lots of reasons.
first, they attack from further away. the further out they are, the less likely they are to hit me, or if they hit me, less chance of it being vital.
second, reaction time. the further out they are, the more time i have to bring my weapon to bear, duck for cover, or retreat if necessary.

third, noise. if someone hears a couple gunshots, odds are they'll call the cops, that will encourage an attacker to break off his assault, or at least present him with other targets.
an assailant using blunt or edged weapon is going to start in closer, will have better accuracy and more opportunity for multiple strikes with less likelihood of retailiation, and will be quiet enough that if he's not seen in the act, he'll be long gone before anyone knows what's happened.
also, committing a crime with a gun usually will put the perp away for longer.
22 posted on 05/20/2009 5:52:43 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (thank God for Chicago: makes Detroit look wholesome by comparison.)
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To: agere_contra

Classic Archie Bunker!


23 posted on 05/20/2009 6:01:48 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: marktwain
The mistake many on our side make is our belief that the left has an "irrational" fear of guns. The high practitioners of leftism are tyrants in the making who can and will seize any control they can. Their fear of guns is very rational as firearms in the hands of private citizens pose the ultimate and perhaps only threat left to their end game.

Irrationalism only comes into play as long as we have some semblance of a constitutional republic remaining, and the masses must be worked into a frothing frenzy in order to further their agenda of firearm prohibition.

24 posted on 05/20/2009 6:09:38 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe Brower
Gun violence is egalitarian in nature. It puts everyone on the same footing - which is why guns ended aristocracy in the Renaissance.

Other forms of violence are more restrictive in nature. To kill somebody with your bare hands requires a certain degree of strength and/or training. Ditto to the effective use of most other hand weapons.

The elitists in government fear egalitarian access to avenues of violence for political reasons.

25 posted on 05/20/2009 6:25:48 AM PDT by ZULU (God guts and guns made America great. Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam.)
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To: marktwain

True. If they take away the guns they’d better take away the kitchen knives. They’re no less lethal.


26 posted on 05/20/2009 6:33:51 AM PDT by RoadTest (For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus - I Tim 2:5)
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To: Joe Brower
Why is "gun" violence treated like something special

The fictional Archie Bunker said it best to his fictional daughter:

"Would you rather they get pushed out a window little girl?"

Best regards,

27 posted on 05/20/2009 6:51:09 AM PDT by Copernicus (California Grandmother view on Gun Control http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7CCB40F421ED4819)
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To: agere_contra
“Would you rather they were all pushed out of windows?”

Gads! You beat me to it!

Best regards,

28 posted on 05/20/2009 6:53:46 AM PDT by Copernicus (California Grandmother view on Gun Control http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7CCB40F421ED4819)
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To: marktwain

**The implication is that Mayor Bloomberg’s anti-gun jihad has been successful, despite an increase in murders, simply because fewer of those murders were committed with guns.***

Many years ago some lib run city instituted a handgun waiting period to buy a firearm. the purpose was to “prevent suicides”.

IT WORKED! The law was declared a success because several suicidal people tried to buy handguns but had to wait.

Each of those people still killed themselves, they just didn’t do it with a gun.


29 posted on 05/20/2009 7:26:09 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: marktwain

At least there are ‘winners’ of gun fights. There are usually no winners in a knife fight.


30 posted on 05/20/2009 7:43:44 AM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Puppage
They're intent is to Disarm the law-abiding, using the term ‘Gun-control’ implies that the criminal element can be controlled - which by definition can't be done.

Therefore, they should be called what they really are.

31 posted on 05/20/2009 8:21:10 AM PDT by GYL2 (Always mystify, mislead and surprise the enemy Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson)
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To: Joe Brower

Be Ever Vigilant!


32 posted on 05/20/2009 8:25:51 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: marktwain

A swan-dive is sometimes followed by a belly flop, which isn’t a pleasant experience at all.


33 posted on 05/20/2009 9:25:09 AM PDT by wastedyears (Iron Maiden's gonna get ya, no matter how far!)
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To: marktwain

Reminds me of the old Archie Bunker comment. When Gloria is decrying the number of people killed by guns, Archie asks her “Would ya’s feel better if they was pushed outa windas?”


34 posted on 05/20/2009 9:32:50 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (I long for the days when advertisers didn't constantly ask about the health of my genital organs.)
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To: Travis McGee

Obama has wet dreams about a country where the federal government has a total monopoly on power.


35 posted on 05/20/2009 4:40:12 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Socialism is the belief that most people are better off if everyone was equally poor and miserable.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.”

He can wish all he wants. Disarming us would be bloodier than he knows.


36 posted on 05/20/2009 5:01:43 PM PDT by Travis McGee ("Foreign Enemies And Traitors" pre-orders are being mailed out.)
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To: marktwain
The anti-gunners are no different that the temperance societies that led the way from prohibition. Making alcohol illegal was going to do great things. When booze was finally banned consumption didn't stop and the ethanol market was still there so a new age of crime was ushered in.

Passing such laws does little to change human behavior. The old saw, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions", still applies.

37 posted on 05/20/2009 5:07:33 PM PDT by oyez (To the extent veterans read it as an accusation -- and apology is owed(i.e. not given))
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To: oyez

One can only imagine the lawlessness of banning guns.

No matter what the Criminals will still get their guns – even if they could confiscate them all – an Impossibility in the first place.

Criminals would still be able to manufacture or import whatever they needed, the resulting crime wave would make the lawlessness of prohibition look like a walk in the park.


38 posted on 05/21/2009 11:08:52 AM PDT by HammerT (Buy them before they BAN them!!!!!!)
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To: thecabal

I believe you are correct.


39 posted on 05/21/2009 11:16:18 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Travis McGee

“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.”
***I recently heard this expression in a different vein: If shoulds and buts were beer and nuts, we’d all have a great party. Or, “we’d bring cold cuts and stuff our guts” may round out the rhyme better.


40 posted on 08/27/2009 12:08:26 AM PDT by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)
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