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Home: No place for Bible study
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | May 22, 2009 | Drew Zahn

Posted on 05/23/2009 3:31:25 AM PDT by Man50D

A San Diego pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies in their home.

The couple, whose names are being withheld until a demand letter can be filed on their behalf, told their attorney a county government employee knocked on their door on Good Friday, asking a litany of questions about their Tuesday night Bible studies, which are attended by approximately 15 people.

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

The pastor's wife answered yes.

She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of dollars.

And if they fail to pay for the MUP, the county official reportedly warned, the couple will be charged escalating fines beginning at $100, then $200, $500, $1000, "and then it will get ugly."

(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bible; biblestudy; freedom; liberty; lipng; lping; pastor; sandiego; zoning

1 posted on 05/23/2009 3:31:25 AM PDT by Man50D
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To: Man50D

Buddy,
show me a warrant for my arrest, or a court order but until then get the f off MY property or I’ll put you off.


2 posted on 05/23/2009 3:37:07 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: Man50D

Wonder what he meant it will get “ugly”? Would that mean rounding them up and putting them on the cattle car and taking them to the showers for cleansing?


3 posted on 05/23/2009 3:38:27 AM PDT by Evil Slayer (Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war)
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To: Evil Slayer

For some of those types, it would be a dream come true.


4 posted on 05/23/2009 3:40:47 AM PDT by wally_bert (John Galt's Oath Is My Oath - As Far As Liberals Go)
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To: Joe Boucher
Buddy, show me a warrant for my arrest, or a court order but until then get the f off MY property or I’ll put you off.

And I'll have you struck dead by lightning. But, seriously, I'm an atheist and I am mortified that such harassment from a government official could be tolerated. Get the ACLU, if needs be.

5 posted on 05/23/2009 3:41:42 AM PDT by Misterioso
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To: Misterioso

I smell a homeowners association


6 posted on 05/23/2009 3:43:07 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Misterioso

I don’t care if you are having a meeting of the one eyed squid eaters of San Diego county in your home. The local govt. has no business trying to stop you.
You would think these govt. stupids would have ANYTHING better to do.


7 posted on 05/23/2009 3:48:17 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: AppyPappy

and probably cars that are taking up residential parking spaces.


8 posted on 05/23/2009 3:50:20 AM PDT by MissDairyGoodnessVT (Mac Conchradha - "Skeagh mac en chroe"- Skaghvicencrowe)
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To: AppyPappy

>I smell a homeowners association>

Or bothered neighbors. It may be that they’re violating some parking rules - if 15 people are showing up is that 10-15 cars parking on a street that may have limited parking?
The article says they have to apply for permits regarding parking and sidewalks.

I don’t know if the whole story is being being told in this article. I don’t think we’re that far along where the gestapo are shutting down churches.

Just my 2 cents. :)


9 posted on 05/23/2009 3:50:54 AM PDT by Wife of D
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To: Man50D

Soon you will have to have a permit to have a few friends around for a BBQ.

These are such little people who have attained a little bit of power and use it in an insane way.

I would have told him to mind his own business and get a real job - it is no business of the Government what you do in your home and to answer their questions is to legitimise their harrassemnt.

Mel


10 posted on 05/23/2009 3:52:28 AM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: Wife of D

I know several people who consider the street in front of their house to be their property. If anyone parks there, they go nuts.


11 posted on 05/23/2009 3:52:47 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Even a HOA would allow you to have a group of cars parked on your driveway and curbs as long as they didn't stay over 24 hours. Also, party as long as it didn't get real loud. I live in a subdivision there we pay $75/year to our HOA and have never had any problems with them. Especially what the so called “county official” did. I tend to believe he was totally out of line and their attorney will eat him alive along with his superiors for allowing this to happen the way it did.
12 posted on 05/23/2009 3:53:16 AM PDT by Evil Slayer (Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war)
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To: Man50D
The story implies but does not explicitly state that this gathering is being treated differently because it is a religious gathering.. By reciting the questions asked of the pastor's wife such as "do you say amen" the reader is led to believe that if she just had a bunch of friends over to get drunk every Wednesday night the city of San Diego would tender its benign blessing. If that is the case, the requirement to obtain a permit would be discriminatory and hence contrary to the constitutional right of free exercise of religion.

But I suspect that is not the case. I suspect that the city objects to the assembly of people with regularity for several purposes which might include, for example, Tupperware party sales, because of the disruption to the neighborhood. Reasonable regulations are not unconstitutional intrusions on the right of free exercise of religion when applied across the board. That is because there is no constitutional right to practice a religion if the practice is in violation of reasonable police and welfare powers of the state. In other words, it is not a defense to the violation of laws of polygamy to assert that one is practicing the free exercise of Mormonism. It is not a defense to animal welfare laws that one is practicing kosher slaughter unless that kind of slaughter is approved. It is not a defense to female mutilation that one is a Muslim.

A practical solution is simply to rotate the prayer meetings among the the various penitents' houses so that the meetings at one location such as the pastor's house become so separated in time that they fall into an exclusion of the general rule.


13 posted on 05/23/2009 3:55:35 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Wife of D

I agree re not getting the whole story. This sounds just a bit “too good to be true.”


14 posted on 05/23/2009 3:57:42 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows (Israel is built on rock. Arabia is built on sand.)
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To: Man50D

As an American of some years I find this action by some dumb govt. Hack, hard to believe.

this crap must be stopped.


15 posted on 05/23/2009 4:01:17 AM PDT by chatham
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To: Man50D

No way can this be tolerated! All levels of government are just busting to do away with constitutional limits, it’s got to be stopped!


16 posted on 05/23/2009 4:13:15 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER
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To: Misterioso

ACLU??? How long have you been here? The ACLU will make sure her neighbors are protected from this evil and illegal act, unless they want to teach the Koran.

Hmmmm now that I think of it.. they should hold a Kran study the next night with the same number of people and see what happens (but better not say “amen” or “praise the lord”)


17 posted on 05/23/2009 4:17:06 AM PDT by Mr. K (physically unabel to proofreed (<---oops))
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To: Man50D
Odd story - If the problem is parking and sidewalk use, why do they care whether the people pray or sing? If the problem is fifteen people showing up every week and taking up street space, the whole thing should focus on the space and not the religious nature of the meeting. If the problem is the religious nature of the meeting, then the meeting is none of the government's business. I see a couple of possibilities.

1. The couple is filling the street with cars once a week and creating a nuisance. The person from the enforcement office stupidly asked about the religious nature of the meetings rather than just tell them that they can't tie up the street every Tuesday night.

2. The couple isn't causing a nuisance but some very intolerant neighbor is upset that they are exercising religious freedom. The intolerant neighbor complained. Instead of taking a look at the situation on a Tuesday night, realizing that there wasn't a problem, and telling the intolerant neighbor to quit complaining or be cited for wasting the county's time, some brain-dead bureaucrat decided to harass this couple.

3. The couple is creating a mild nuisance but the problem is still an intolerant neighbor. This neighbor is probably the one who has 20 people to his house every Friday night but still hates the thought of these Tuesday night Bible studies.

18 posted on 05/23/2009 4:31:47 AM PDT by WFTR (Liberty isn't for cowards)
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To: Joe Boucher

‘one eyed squid eaters’..LOL!


19 posted on 05/23/2009 4:42:06 AM PDT by tina07 (In loving memory of my father,WWII Vet. CBI 10/16/42-12/17/45, d. 11/1/85 -Happy B'day Daddy 2/20/23)
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To: Man50D

While I suspect there is probably more to this story, it is always safe to presume, until proven otherwise, that the government is always guilty of violating the rights of the people.


20 posted on 05/23/2009 4:43:00 AM PDT by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: Man50D
"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

Do you have a warrant? No? Then f**k off.

21 posted on 05/23/2009 4:45:42 AM PDT by FreepShop1
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To: Man50D
And if they fail to pay for the MUP, the county official reportedly warned, the couple will be charged escalating fines beginning at $100, then $200, $500, $1000, "and then it will get ugly."

He has no idea how "ugly" it will get--for him. He has made a huge mistake by persecuting this couple. We take care of our own, as he will very soon find out as he's looking at classified ads for a new job.

22 posted on 05/23/2009 4:47:15 AM PDT by FreepShop1
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To: Man50D
"Wherever two or three of ye shall gather in My name..."

There will be charges filed apparently.

23 posted on 05/23/2009 4:56:53 AM PDT by muir_redwoods ( Hey, remember the last head of state who dictated the design of automobiles?)
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To: WFTR
We have Bible study at our home every Tuesday night....
...3 or 4 cars max, and 2 cars can get in the driveway.

It lasts 2 hours max.

Our church calls them 'small groups' and there are at least 6 throughout the community during the week.....it's an extension of bringing our members together & knowing them better---but it is not exclusive and our neighbors know they would be welcome to attend.

No one can hear us from the street --we are quiet & show respect to our neighbors.

We own our home, we have lived here 8 years and our neighbors like us and know about the Bible study.

But I can see someone moving into the neighborhood who is anti-Bible study and doing something exactly like this.

I will take this story seriously because we are in a new era of fear & retaliation, it seems.

But we will hold our Bible study (Lord willing) as long as we can.

24 posted on 05/23/2009 4:57:10 AM PDT by Guenevere
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To: Man50D

When was the right to peaceful assembly revoked? Did I miss something?


25 posted on 05/23/2009 5:04:57 AM PDT by Desdemona (Tolerance of grave evil is NOT a Christian virtue. http://www.thekingsmen.us/)
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To: WKB; Salvation; NYer; Vision; greyfoxx39; Sopater; wagglebee; Gabz; bamahead

ping


26 posted on 05/23/2009 5:12:35 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: AppyPappy
I smell a homeowners association

The article names a "government official". If it were a HOA, the only recourse is civil, not criminal.

But, a complaint from a neighbor can call for swift government action.

If you don't like somebody, just say you "think you saw" kiddy porn on their computer... it's a perfectly anonymous thing which is probably repeated daily!


27 posted on 05/23/2009 5:14:37 AM PDT by WVKayaker ( God said, 'Cancel Program GENESIS.' The universe ceased to exist.- Arth. C. Clarke's shortest story)
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To: Man50D

They’ll need a lot of luck to stop people from worshiping in homes. Nobody has been able to stop it in 2000 years, no matter what kind of force they bring.


28 posted on 05/23/2009 5:14:39 AM PDT by ovrtaxt (Truly Constitutional money isn't just backed by gold and silver- it IS gold and silver.)
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To: Joe Boucher

Amen. Accompanied by the business end of a shotgun to punctuate the sentiment.


29 posted on 05/23/2009 5:51:07 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Man50D; All

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. Thanks to every poster. BTTT!


30 posted on 05/23/2009 6:21:12 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: metmom; Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; ...



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
(View past Libertarian pings here)
31 posted on 05/23/2009 6:51:23 AM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: Wife of D
I don’t know if the whole story is being being told in this article.

Wing Nut Daily has a tendency to conveniently omit certain details.

32 posted on 05/23/2009 6:56:12 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: Man50D

Well, I guess a thursday night Tupperware party will be out of the question!


33 posted on 05/23/2009 7:08:00 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.)
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To: AppyPappy
I know several people who consider the street in front of their house to be their property.

I'm not selfish enough to think that the street in front of my house is my property, but I do like to think I should get first dibs on parking there. I also don't like the idea of anyone I don't know parking in front of my house. You never know what they're up to. Of course, I live in a quiet neighborhood where someone parking in front of your house is not a typical thing.

34 posted on 05/23/2009 7:13:44 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (I long for the days when advertisers didn't constantly ask about the health of my genital organs.)
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To: Man50D

If this same couple had weekly parties for wife swapping, dope smoking or other activities not church related would there be a need for a MUP???


35 posted on 05/23/2009 7:15:30 AM PDT by The Great RJ (chain.)
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To: Wife of D
I don’t think we’re that far along where the gestapo are shutting down churches.

Yesterday evening I was talking to some people who recently moved into our neighborhood from CA. They left the San Fran area when their daughter came home from school last year and she had been told not to mention the word God in class. The mom is now homeschooling her kids.

36 posted on 05/23/2009 7:52:56 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (It took almost 250 years to make the USA great and 30 days for "The Failure" BO to tear it down.)
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To: Man50D

intrep


37 posted on 05/23/2009 9:29:31 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (When do the impeachment proceedings begin?)
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To: Man50D

Call the bible meetings GAY ORGIES and your rights will be protected 100%.


38 posted on 05/23/2009 10:13:05 AM PDT by yazoo (Conservatives believe what they see. Liberals see what they believe.)
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To: WVKayaker

Photo of You WVKayaker?


39 posted on 05/23/2009 11:31:12 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: Man50D

Looks like the First Amendment will have to be supported by the Second.


40 posted on 05/23/2009 11:34:25 AM PDT by Christian4Bush (Washington couldnt tell a lie. Clinton couldnt tell the truth. Bawny Fwank cant tell the difference.)
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To: Joe Boucher

People better get a grip, and damn right soon. This kind of stuff cannot be allowed to take root.


41 posted on 05/23/2009 3:57:42 PM PDT by 383rr (Those who choose security over liberty deserve neither; GUN CONTROL=SLAVERY)
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To: Misterioso

That’s right, it could (theoretically) apply to anything: A music club, a computer enthusiast group, a dog training group, etc.


42 posted on 05/23/2009 6:20:29 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: Evil Slayer
"Wonder what he meant it will get “ugly”? Would that mean rounding them up and putting them on the cattle car and taking them to the showers for cleansing? "

Just the first test step leading up to implementation of oscumbo's new "preventative detention" policy.

43 posted on 05/23/2009 8:10:03 PM PDT by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: Misterioso

“And I’ll have you struck dead by lightning. But, seriously, I’m an atheist and I am mortified that such harassment from a government official could be tolerated. Get the ACLU, if needs be.”

And you’re welcome to play on my team anytime... I’ll be glad to support your freedoms as well, even if I completely disagree with your views on God. THAT is what is meant by a FREE society.


44 posted on 05/23/2009 8:45:38 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: nathanbedford

Mormonism
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ( commonly referred to as “Mormons”) do not practice polygamy. In fact, they are immediately excommunicated from this church if it is learned that they are.


45 posted on 05/27/2009 9:16:53 PM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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