iirc Jesus was not into socialized medicine... he was VERY selective who he helped and cured.
Posted on 08/30/2009 12:34:44 PM PDT by lowbridge
Jesus may actually be for universal care. Liberal hippie that He was. Oh well, we can’t all be perfect.
iirc Jesus was not into socialized medicine... he was VERY selective who he helped and cured.
And what would Jesus think about Ted Kennedy? Probably nothing, as He wouldn’t think of him at all. Next stop for Ted, furnace duty.
Well, Jesus the Messiah of Israel did agree with gleaning,
The poster you respond to is correct. You are not to take from SOMEONE ELSE and give to the poor.There were always admonitions to personally help the poor...this is a far cry from forcible re-distribution by law.
In 1 Corinthians 16, Paul talks about a collection that was sent from the churches to the Jerusalem believers
Again, voluntary. Paul isn't forcibly taking it and re-distributing it.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel is coming back to set up a *one-world government*
Has nothing to do with this word gov't and its corruption because of political leaders.
People need to dismantle the emo-terms the left is using.
“healthcare” is fine in the US. If not, all those illegals wouldn’t get any care. Yet they do.
The issue is “health insurance”... And who pays for everything. The main complaint is that it’s to expensive. If we use 0bama’s most inflated number of 45m people... Which includes 20-25m illegals.. Which we should not be paying for.... That leaves 20m out of 310m that are not covered.
I'm pretty sure Matthew, the tax collector, and his notorious friends, were NOT people of Faith. Nevertheless, Christ dined with them, despite the shocked sensibilities of the “righteous”! His response to them is well-known:
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.... I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
No, that would be more the anti-Christ's MO.
There's no need for a "state" under Christ. In His perfection, He's the only ruler needed.
It was the law in regards to someone else’s field and them allowing others to come on the field that they own and allow them to pick the crops on that field. So, it was the law in regards to them...
In addition, there were also taxes that were required for the government and it was redistributed according to the requirements of the law...
Those were things that were required and done according to the law...
There were also other laws in regards to how people were supposed to handle their fields in the 7th year, i.e., not use them at all (again by law). And also there was the law that required people to forgive debt and the land was to revert back to the owner at the 50th year...
Those were all legitimate laws and they were supposed to be followed.
Including the Homosexual agenda that rocked the ELCA Lutheran Synod last week.
You said — No, that would be more the anti-Christ’s MO.
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Well, the anti-christ comes first, and he fails and is “booted out” by Jesus the Messiah of Israel and He sets up the one-world rule and reign over all the world, over the nations. There are some problems, then, as He is said to rule with a rod of iron and He also will cause no rain to come to certain nations, because of their mini-rebellion during that time. So, yes, He does rule with full and absolute authority (like the anti-christ tried to do but failed...). Jesus, the Messiah of Israel comes in war and battle, kills millions upon millions upon His return and forcefully sets up the Kingdom of God on this earth, ruling and reigning from the Throne of David in Israel and all the nations acknowledge His rule from Israel.
There is still sin and death during this 1,000 year reign, so all is not perfect, as it’s not perfect until all sin and death are gone — and that does not happen until *after* this 1,000 year reign of the Messiah of Israel.
Churches, nonprofit entities, and the ones who can, and want to help should do it. Do not force anyone. Take your communist bs to hell.
And like the rich man in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus, he is probably begging to warn us and let us know - to no avail.
Similar to today...God says to provide for the poor. However, there were no repercussions to NOT doing it. There were no tax-payer funds involved...it was a matter of one's own free will to carry it out.
There were also other laws in regards to how people were supposed to handle their fields in the 7th year
This was not to provide for the poor. It was to allow the field to lie fallow to enrich the soil.
the land was to revert back to the owner at the 50th year...
And you're saying the original owner was poor?
Those were all legitimate laws and they were supposed to be followed.
But not necessarily today. They were only a shadow fulfilled in Christ. (Hebrews)
We don't have to wonder: [13] Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." [14] Jesus replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" [15] Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed...:
That's only if you have a post-millenial theology. I don't.
BTW if Christ is reigning there is perfection. No sin, death, or rebellion can exist if perfection reigns on earth.
Oh, and one more thing... in regards to the following you were saying — Again, voluntary. Paul isn’t forcibly taking it and re-distributing it.
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No, the “church” (as established at Pentecost) was not to “require” believers to give to the church, but to give to the church as they felt led by God to do, and to do so cheerfully...
However, that’s the church. On the other hand, both Jesus and the Apostle Paul tells believers to pay taxes and to adhere to the government in what it tells you to do by their laws, as “government” is established by God for the good of society (paraphrasing Paul here...).
And so..., while the “church” is not to “extract taxes” and “redistribute” according to its goals and plans — the same is not said of the *government* of which Jesus was in complete agreement with, in terms of obeying it and paying taxes, along with the Apostle Paul saying the same thing.
The only area where they would depart from that, is if it had to do with preaching the Gospel message. They would not listen to any government authorities in telling them to *not* preach the Gospel. In that area, they were “on record” in the Bible as “obeying God rather than man” — but not in the area of the government in general, and following laws and taxes and so on. And *also* — according to Paul, they were not even supposed to violate the “law” in regards to “slaves” either. Paul only made a “request” to a slave-owner to give his slave freedom, but it was only a request and not a command from the Bible or the church. If he had kept the person as a slave, that would not have been something that could have been “ordered to be changed” by the church or an Apostle (or anything in the Bible).
So, while we do have a representative form of government, our democratic Republic (and others in the world in the past and now, don’t have them) — we can interact with that form of government and get it to do various things with the laws that it enacts according to our representation that we have.
But, Jesus the Messiah of Israel will have *no representative government* as He will be the authoritative and absolute ruler over all the nations of the world, during that time of the 1,000 year reign of His Kingdom on earth.
You said — BTW if Christ is reigning there is perfection. No sin, death, or rebellion can exist if perfection reigns on earth.
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No, during that 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth, we are told that there is a massive rebellion right at the end of it and they are instantly killed for their rebellion...
So, there is still “sin” and there is still “death” at that time, as those multitudes of people did sin and rebel and they did die...
And you’ll note that it’s *after* the end of that 1,000 years of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel’s Kingdom on earth that “death” and “hell” (hades, sheol, gehenna) are cast into the lake of fire, to have no more effect any longer... It’s not *until that time* that it happens...
Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
You can read it for yourself and see that Christ is said to reign during that time, and still at the end of it, there is still death and sin. And it’s not until the completion of the Great White Throne Judgment that death is dispensed with (which indicates that sin is dispensed with, too, as death came by sin).
“...then let’s have churches run the hospitals...”
Actually, one of the roles of the New Testament Church was to provide every kind of assistance to the members — health, social services, etc. Now that America has turned from God government has stepped in. If we’d get back to basics, with the local church as center of our lives, there would be fewer problems.
No, there was a fierce argument over circumcision. The apostles came down on the side that said that law did NOT have to be obeyed. If things had gone your way, we would have had no Boston Tea Party as well...we'd still be paying taxes to Britain.
In addition this has nothing to do with laws still to be put into effect, those requiring that even more federal funds being allocated to the "poor" which takes away the ability of local communities and the Church to care for their own. Responsible christians should fight this tooth and nail.
But, Jesus the Messiah of Israel will have *no representative government*
True. This is why He cannot be said to be the "State". He rules in perfection...in perfect love. The "State" is a wordly law put in effect to keep men from running riot in their sin. No need for this when Christ rules and reigns.
You said — Similar to today...God says to provide for the poor. However, there were no repercussions to NOT doing it. There were no tax-payer funds involved...it was a matter of one’s own free will to carry it out.
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No, this was mandatory, and judgment came to Israel because of disobeying God’s law. They were dispersed and scattered throughout the world and didn’t have possession of their land during that time, until just recently, when God began gathering Israel back together again, for their final judgment and salvation at the coming of the Messiah of Israel.
God gave many examples of how He carried forth His judgment upon the nation for them failing to follow His laws for what they were supposed to do. They were *criminals* according to God, but then again, so are we all “criminals” according to God...
The “taxpayer funds” were what was “taxed” by what they were supposed to leave for the poor to collect themselves. And also there were the taxes which were required of the overseeing government, too... which was valid, according to Jesus, and they subjugated Israel under that other government. And then, there were also taxes to the Temple for the governing of the land, as they were the government of the people in that day. So, there were taxes on all sides...
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You said — This was not to provide for the poor. It was to allow the field to lie fallow to enrich the soil.
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That was a “rest to God”, and Israel failed to do it and they were subjugated by other governments and powers because they failed to obey God in what He said was “His” (not something for the field itself). This was not something that was given to them by the “Israelite agricultural extension office” as some “best practices” for farming... LOL... It was a law that was ordered by God in worship to Him, and to remember that He rested on the 7th day and that they were to depend upon God for their sustenance, just like they depended on the manna (in the wilderness) lasting an extra day and not spoiling, whereas, if they collected two days worth of manna on any other day, it would spoil (but not on the sixth day...).
Just like the manna, it wasn’t “best practices” for handling, that they were to observe, but the “law of God” that they were to observe out of worship and dependance upon Him and no one else.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
And then you said — And you’re saying the original owner was poor?
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If he could redeem his land, he was not poor, obviously so — but then again, if he did redeem his land, he wouldn’t have to have it returned to him, regardless of the debt. It was when he *was poor* that this would come into effect, in that he could not redeem his land and he could not get it back. With this — he got it back regardless of the debt owed.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You said — But not necessarily today. They were only a shadow fulfilled in Christ.
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You’ll notice that it was the Apostle Paul writing in Romans that said that we were to obey the governing authorities as God gives them the power to rule over us (in whatever form of government that we have at the time and in various places in the world). In our particular situation, we have the representative form of government established by the founding fathers and we follow that through our representative form of government, a democratic Republic, the methodology being the one set up by the founding fathers and what we have inherited to this day.
So, if we are taxed, and if we must pay this or that — or whatever, and this comes about through this form of government that we have — then this is what we are “duty bound to follow” per the Apostle Paul as he writes in Romans — and that *is today*, as we are speaking right now.
BUT, in the future, there will be a coming Kingdom of God on this earth, presided over by the Messiah of Israel for that 1,000 year reign of Jesus, during which time He will rule all the other nations of the world, with a rod of iron and do so *through the nation of Israel* with all the nations of the world bringing their wealth and goods to that nation of Israel in worship to Jesus, here on this earth.
That will continue for that 1,000 years, until the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of that period of time.
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