Skip to comments.Maya has no COLB & Mr. & Mrs. Obama Sr. were married?
Posted on 10/02/2009 9:58:24 PM PDT by Frantzie
Looks like Maya has no COLB according to Leo's record search and the parents were married.
[ed. no. it's not open. they were married. their marriage index data is on file with the DoH... myth conclusively busted.]
[ed. I dont know about Maya's citizenship. all I know is that she has no COLB from Hawaii. that myth is busted.]
Leo is doing alot of speculating, s usual.
Sounds like Leo needs some boots on the ground in HI. All these former JAG attorneys and retired attorneys out there. Seems like they are mostly AWOL.
Maya was born in Indonesia, so why would anyone expect her to have a birth certificate from Hawaii?
Leo is in this to “bust myths” not to get real answers. He’s targeting to discredit us - not Obama’s natural born citizenship status and documentation. He has not seen any of the documents he’s claiming to know exist by the cryptic answers he’s getting from DOH. Odd.
I think he has a one track mind. He thinks that these questions about Obama’s birth place are a waste of time because Obama is not a NBC as his father was not American. He believes the COLB is a birth certificate and is good enough to prove he was born in the US and we should be paying attention to his argument about the NBC issue. He’s irritated with Orly for going to court as she has done.
Because back when the B/C story was 1st breaking, last year and the Won’s COLB was being debunked, there was some speculation that Maya’s COLB was used as the template for his.
Also that added to the outrage that “anyone”, citizen or not could get a COLB in Hawaii.
If 0bama Sr. and Ann Dunham were married, I think there may be some chance for challenging his eligibility on the ground that the father was not a US citizen. If they were not married, it’s more likely that he had to follow the mother’s. Am I wrong?
........those sloppy seconds Soetoro’s~~~~
How did Maya become an American citizen?
I'm not sure of the origin of that claim. At one point, I thought I read that Maya herself claimed she had a Hawaiian COLB, while claiming she wasn't born in Hawaii.
Hell, I don’t think she is.
Yes, I don’t think it was a big “myth” that anyone is out looking for Maya’s COLB. She was not born in the US and neither was her brother, most likely.
had to follow the mother’s what?
From the State Department's website: Documentation of U.S. Citizens Born Abroad
"...The birth of a child abroad to U.S. citizen parent(s) should be reported as soon as possible to the nearest American consular office for the purpose of establishing an official record of the childs claim to U.S. citizenship at birth. The official record is in the form of a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America..."
I’m certainly familiar w/ FS-240, but simply being born abroad to a foreign father & American mother isn’t sufficient to convey American citizenship.
A few documents have to be submitted. Follow the link. It isn't a difficult process.
How did Maya become an American citizen?.........
Since her mother is an American citizen she is one too. But had to file some naturalization paperwork at age 18 since she was not born in the USA. I have a low opinion of her. She is in outer space
Here is a question I statement I made on Leo’s blog when has not been cleared:
You receiving unrequested marriage information for Stanley Ann is like saying you are receiving the data on his parents but you are not. You are receiving information about who his mom married; but the birth parental data has not been given to you.
I suspect it is the father issue that the DOH is trying to avoid releasing by side steping the issue and giving you data from a marriage certificate instead of the parents listed on Obamas birth certificate. To make a determination on Obamas natural born status, the parents listed on the birth certificate, not moms marriage certificate, is required.
Im certainly familiar w/ FS-240, but simply being born abroad to a foreign father & American mother isnt sufficient to convey American citizenship.............
It is 99% sufficient but one must file naturalization forms at age 18. Then you are home free
Not if the father is a foreign national. It actually depends on the residency history of the mother and the statutory requirements at that time (1970).
Again, it's all there on the State Dept.'s website:
"Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.
Since SAD was 27 when Maya was born in 1970, it appears Maya was eligible for U.S. citizenship at birth.
Maya was not an automatic American citizen.
But she was 99% there at birth due to having an American mother and merely had to file for naturalization at age 18 and no one gets turned down for this
If Maya had been born on US soil she would have been a US citizen at birth just like offspring of illegal aliens are (UNFORTUNATELY)
In Maya's case, perhaps so, if SAD was resident in the US for the required time (how long did she live here before heading to Indonesia?). Her US residency alone at the time of bHussein0's birth, at least, was not sufficient to convey citizenship.
The mother’s citizenship.
A common misconception, that US citizenship of one parent is in and of itself sufficient to convey citizenship to offspring. Young women who have married foreign nationals and moved to the husband's county have found out the hard way that there are further requirements.
There are more than a few children trapped in ME countries, as well as some European ones (notably Germany). State won't lift a finger to help the mothers gain custody of their kids because the kids are not US citizens.
I meant to mention - if Maya’s mom met the residency requirements, it would not result in ‘naturalization’, but the conveyance of birthright citizenship.
One doesn’t have to wait until age 18 to perfect US citizenship in the situation we’re discussing, but sometimes the other country requires that the person be 18 to renounce citizenship (if required) of that country.
I've always thought that whether or not Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii, the real point is that supposing it were true that would be a technicality. In the sense that the purpose of the constitutional "natural born citizen" provision was to seek to limit the office of POTUS to patriotic Americans -a set of which Mr. Obama has apparently never been a member.A few documents have to be submitted. Follow the link. It isn't a difficult process.Im certainly familiar w/ FS-240, but simply being born abroad to a foreign father & American mother isnt sufficient to convey American citizenship.
I note that you are speaking in the present tense. Much of the discussion of Obama's citizenship at birth that I've seen relates to the requirements for birth citizenship under the laws existing on the date of Obama's birth. Which were not the same as those applicable to babies born to American citizens abroad today.
Both Drew68 & I are relating the applicable requirements to the time in question (1970 for Maya), cIs. If there's any difference in our approaches, it's that Drew refers to the State Dept site and my source is the USC itself. The USC spells out the requirements at various points in time. In immigration law the important cutoffs are 11/14/86, 12/24/52, and various 'befores'.
I think the '52 requirements (10/5 after 14) were barely adequate, and the '86 revison (5/2) is ridiculously lax.
The 'befores' are interesting - most differentiated between the gender of the US citizen parent; a US citizen father passing his citizenship essentially automatically, whereas a US citizen mother abroad had far more stringent hoops to jump through.
Now I could speculate, and will, wondering at the response by Fukino providing the fact that Stanley Ann and Barack were bride and groom, but not asserting that they were parents.
Who’s older. If Barack is older, then he definitely wasn’t born in the US.
I believe Obama is older but I don’t get what you are saying.
I think you are probably right. Although this is a matter of a bit of obscurity due to the changing laws on the subject, the British law that made Obama a British colonial subject at birth may not have operated to that effect if he had been born out of wedlock to his British father.
I think the evidence is that Obama's parents WERE married (otherwise a divorce would not have been needed) and that Obama WAS a British subject at birth, and that he was not, therefore, a natural born citizen of the United States. I believe that this is the classic example is who the Framers intended to bar from the Presidency by their use of the phrase: someone who could be claimed as a national by Great Britain.
Indonesia is a birthright citizenship country, extending Indonesian citizenship only to individuals with an Indonesian father, and to ALL children born in Indonesia of an Indonesian father. Moreover, in the 1960s Indonesia didn’t recognize dual citizenship. At Maya’s birth her mother (and father) would have had to make a decision: whether to use Maya’s mother to claim US citizenship for the daughter. I suspect that they did so. Otherwise Maya would have had to go through a complete adult naturalization process, which I don’t think she needed to do.
If Maya was American at birth (through her mother) then she was an American citizen. It seems you misunderstand the concept of “naturalization”. Naturalization is the process by which a non-citizen becomes a citizen. Now if she had a claim to citizenship at birth, but did not assert that claim until she was older - that is someting entirely different.
AS long as the U.S. citizen parent has lived 5 years in the U.S. (2 after the age of 15) AND can prove it, then the kid can lay claim to U.S. citizenship. I know, I’ve done it.
Reading white on black text is a pain!
Well now, ain’t you the young’un! (or are you the parent?)
It’s after age 14, actually, and those are the ‘new’ (1986) rules. Maya’s situation fell under the prior 1952 requirements.
I’ve always thought it ridiculous that a 16/17 yo can leave the country, have no further dealings w/ or residency in the US (an admittedly clumsy way to measure ‘allegiance’), and have a baby 10-15 years later that is eligible for birthright citizenship.
Whether Indonesia recognized dual citizenship is irrevelent. Maya could have been both Indonesian AND American without the other country knowing about it. Indonesian laws do not affect American policy, and American laws don’t affect Indonesian policy. Even if Indonesian law forced her to renounce her American citizenship, she still would be a U.S. citizen.
Agree 110% ! When Leo first started posting these, I immediately commented on this. A few people scolded me and told me that Leo is here to “please me” ! YIKES !
I can barely see ANYTHING on his site during the day so I feel your pain...
I found that if you copy and paste the info (a few paragraphs at a time) into my e-mail account, it converts it to black on white.
Isn’t that pretty much what I said?
And why would Indonesia force Maya to renounce a citizenship you yourself admit the Indonesians would have been unaware of.
What I said was that I presumed that Maya’s mother would have claimed US citizenship for her. If Stanley Ann had not done so, there would have come a time when Maya would have had a more difficult time establishing US citizenship. It would NOT have been automatic unless Maya’s birth and US Citizenship status had been established in a timely manner.
Correction: Leo is “not” here to please me.
It is YOU who is mistaking the formal naturalization process for for all forms of citizenship granted through statute enacted by Congress under the plenary powers granted to it by the naturalization clause of the US Constitution.
In fact, ALL forms of citizenship other than “natural born” citizenship exist through the operation of federal statute law, and are therefore properly thought of as forms of naturalized citizenship. This includes anyone granted US citizenship although born in a foreign land (other than the children of diplomats). This is true whether the child has one or both US citizen parents. Absent this statute, no child born abroad (other than the child of diplomats) would be a US citizen at all.
To repeat: ALL forms of citizenship that derive from the operation of statute law are a forms of NATURALIZED citizenship.
A CoLB would be bases on some document in the Hawaii Department of Health records. So if there is no index record, there could never have been a CoLB issued. However spelling variants of foreign names are common. IIRC there are even variants of Soetero, let alone her given names.
I would think that the father's name on the long form birth certificate would establish parentage, married or not. The Certificate of Live Birth form, in '61, did not even contain a field to indicate if the parents were married. It also asks for the mother's maiden name, not her married name, if any.
Thus, if the test for NBC is having two US citizen parents, he fails, IF the long Form BC shows BHO Sr as his father.
IMHO, the search for British citizenship for Junior is misplaced. It doesn't matter. Citizenship of his father, the legal one, does. If the father was not a US Citizen, the child is not an NBC. Now there are potential circumstances that would make BHO Jr. not even a citizen, unless later naturalized, but confirming those could prove difficult.
While by the time Maya was born, S. Ann was able to convey citizenship to a child born abroad with an alien father, that is not true in general. For example, IF Barry was born abroad, his mother did not meet the "residency in the US" requirements to convey citizenship.
It would still be citizenship by statute. Congress only has the power to define a uniform rule of naturalization. So, despite Congress definition in the law, such "birthright" citizenship must be considered "naturalization at birth", or it would be unconstitutional as a Congressional exercise of power not granted by the Constitution.