Posted on 11/04/2009 7:05:58 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
Taiwan says China starts building first aircraft carrier
Agence France-Presse First Posted 19:44:00 11/04/2009
Filed Under: Military, Foreign affairs & international relations
TAIPEI – Taiwan said Wednesday that its giant neighbor China has started building its first aircraft carrier, a move analysts have said could raise military tensions in the region.
The head of Taiwan's National Security Bureau told parliament construction of the carrier had begun, Lin Yu-fang, a legislator of the ruling Kuomintang party, told AFP.
However, the security chief, Tsai Teh-sheng said the carrier's construction "has not been smooth" and that the Chinese navy may struggle to put it into service by 2012 unless it makes a manufacturing breakthrough soon.
"This is the result of an evaluation not only from [Taiwan's] National Security Bureau...but also from the Chinese communists," Tsai said, according to Lin.
Taiwanese military experts expect the People's Liberation Army to take at least 10 years to have its first operating carrier group complete with carrier-based fighters and other warships.
"Once they complete the ambitious project, it will have a serious and far-fetched military impact on the region," said Wung Ming-hsien, professor at Taipei's Tamkang University.
"And by that time, the United States, Japan, and Taiwan will need to overhaul their military strategies."
A carrier group would potentially double the military threat posed to Taiwan by China by allowing the Chinese to approach from directions other than across the Strait, he said.
Two weeks ago Taiwan's defense ministry said in its annual report that China had continued its military build-up against the island despite warming ties, tipping the military balance in the Taiwan Strait with more than 1,300 ballistic and cruise missiles targeting the island.
Ties between China and Taiwan have improved significantly since the China-friendly politician Ma Ying-jeou became the island's president last year, vowing to adopt a non-confrontational policy towards the mainland.
But China still regards Taiwan as part of its territory awaiting to be reunified by force if necessary, although the island has governed itself since 1949 when a civil war ended.
The United States has repeatedly urged China to be more transparent about its rapid military buildup, warning of a shifting balance of power in the Asia-Pacific region that could cause misunderstanding.
It takes more than an aircraft carrier to make waves. Aircraft carriers are surrounded by a battle group plus the training of Top Gun pilots and billions more for support crews plus logistics.
The building part will be the easy part. Operating will be an interesting learning curve.
Agreed.
Building one by parroting a design is one thing. Operating one successfully, with aircraft and fire control and all that junk is something else entirely.
This ain't a fishing boat, ya know.
you are correct...anybody can build an aircraft carrier...the challenge is to actually be able to use it..
10 years to build.
10 minutes to sink.
Buying a high-end custom .45 and some fins doesn’t make you into an instant SEAL either. Buying a carrier is one thing. Operating over 100 of them as we have, for over 80 years, in 5 wars and countless small actions,,,,is quite another.
The only way their carrier could menace us is for us to have a president like Obama who hates the USA.
Complacent dismissal is very dangerous.
Sure, but any punk with a gun can get lucky and kill a SEAL or two before getting killed. To underestimate someone is to get into a fight and be forced to prove yourself right.
Instant gratification is not the trait of a culture that has been around for thousands of years.
Really? I submit for your enjoyment the Charles de Gaulle:
Construction quickly fell behind schedule as the project was starved of funding, which was worsened by the economic recession in the early 1990s.[citation needed] Total costs for the vessel would top €3 billion. Work on the ship was suspended altogether on four occasions: 1990, 1991, 1993 and 1995.[1] The ship was commissioned on 18 May 2001, five years behind the projected deadline.
Charles de Gaulle entered sea trials in 1999. These identified the need to extend the flight deck to safely operate the E-2C Hawkeye. ... On 28 February 2000, a nuclear reactor trial triggered the combustion of additional isolation elements, producing a smoke incident. ...During the night of 9 November 2000, in the Western Atlantic while en route toward Norfolk, Virginia, the port propeller broke and the ship had to return to Toulon to replace the faulty unit. The investigations that followed showed similar structural faults in the other propeller and in the spare propellers: bubbles in the one-piece copper-aluminium alloy propellers near the centre. The fault was blamed on the supplier, Atlantic Industries, which had already gone bankrupt. To make matters worse, all documents relating to the design and fabrication of the propellers had been lost in a fire. ...On 5 March 2001, Charles de Gaulle went back to sea with two older propellers and sailed 25.2 knots (47 km/h) on her trials. Between July and October, Charles de Gaulle had to be refitted once more due to abnormal noises, as loud as 100 dB, near the starboard propeller, which had rendered the aft part of the ship uninhabitable. ... On 8 November 2001, a sailor performing a routine maintenance task lost consciousness due to a toxic gas leak. A non-commissioned officer attempted to rescue him and collapsed as well. They were immediately rescued by the on-board medical team and sent to Toulon Hospital. Both survived.
Personally, I don’t get it.
The Chinese have had some of the terrifying armies and navies in the world (admittedly, not within the last 400 years...). Fortunately, they were mostly used against other Chinese. But, just as the Soviet Union pretty much killed off the Wehrmacht, China pretty much killed off the Imperial Japanese Army.
The PRC might be a bit behind in quality, but they are catching up fast, and they have the quantity part covered like nobody else ever has. They’re not sensitive to casualties and don’t give a darn about “public opinion.” Barring some sort of internal meltdown they are poised to own the future...
well, they built it, it floated and worked ( albeit, not very well )and this just proved what i said.....anybody can BUILD an aircraft carrier.....
That’s not “anybody” that’s the French...
When it comes to anything dealing with war, they are going to screw it up, even it they had a 1000 years...
Sorry that’s where you’re wrong.
The Japs bought, studied, and operated planes from all over the world, before they started building their own. Heck, IIRC, the engine that powered the Zero was a copy of the Twin Wasp.
The same is true for their ships - they bought BBs from the UK before they started building their own.
The Chinese are not “buying a high-end custom .45” and pretending they’re a SEAL. They’re buying a production weapon, taking it apart, taking measurements and copying it for their own production purposes. I would bet strongly on them being able to duplicate CVs and develop their own carrier operations.
Remember the story about the Soviets capturing a B-29 and then making exact several exact replicas?
It don't come natural.
That same lucky punk is going to get F908ked up by by some irritated brother SEALS, who will then go hunting for more fish.
Because SEALS are intelligent fighters who can adapt, overcome and out think their opponents, when they go fishing, every target is in a barrel.
By the time they get around to building their “first” carrier group we will be in the middle of an upgrade to our Naval and Air fleet.
We will 100 years of strategy and tactical experience under our belt.
We will still have the most advanced fleet in the world
We will have pilots who have flown hostile missions, making them experienced.
We will even better communications tools and skills between Land, Sea and Air.
Communications granularity will be down to the individual fighting man who can coordinated flanking tactics with the most precise weapons available, making it easier to attack using smaller squads of 3-6 fighting units.
Those individual fighting units will be equipped computers that enable coordination between other units, Land and Air units.
The list could go on but, we don’t take anything for granted.
To the other posters who are talking about a magic bullet from a lucky punk, said punk is still going to have to deal with worlds largest arsenal of precision weapons and we like to do things from far away.
Here is a video from some show on HBO of a soldier sniping at nearly 1,000 yards. Come get some!
1.5 minutes long:
Video: M-40 Sniper in Iraq:
http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=203118&ESRC=dod.nl
Our guys do this all day long.
I can make a paper airplane
See my post at #20 especially the last part where there is a video:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2378302/posts?page=20#20
China has 57 distinct ethnic minorities who want to be from China. The people of Tibet and Uighers want the people and nations(that is how they see themselves) freed from the shackles of China.
The 57 ethnicity's comprise 2/3rds of China's population and once one get their freedom the rest will and China will be reduced to a nation of 300 million.
Additionally, next year or the following, China will become a net importer of Rice and their dependence on the rest of the world will only grow as their meager arable land, is being reduced by pollution of the ground and water, while at the same time they are losing fertile ground to desertification.
They have no resource for oil and are completely dependent on other nations for importation.
In just 30 years 1/2 their population will be over the age of 60 and in need of care. China is hardly in a position to deal with that many people who are likely to become indigent and unmanageable.
A real blow to Chinese character and a huge loss, from which they could they never save face.
Build some barges. Big deal.
India is more progressive in every area.
LAST UPDATE: May 1, 2009
Major Development - Varyag moved into dry dock for major work.
http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/redseadragon/varyagtransform.htm
It won't get any better for our military when the bill comes due for our current economic foolishness. When foreign countries dump the dollar we will no longer be able to afford to import our food and other such silly things. I would guess that when that happens congress will extend unemployment insurance and food stamp benefits. At that point the military stands a good chance of facing severe cutbacks. It was bad enough in the ‘90s. The ‘10s could quite well be horrifying.
China, on the other hand, will chose bullets over butter every time.
That actually looks cool.
Aw come’on. We are Americans.
We survived two invasions by the reds, a civil war, two world wars, Carter and Clinton.
We will be fine.
Besides, who is going to resupply China as they cross the ocean blue. Those alliances are not yet built and they don’t have the capability to forcibly make an alliance.
I am concerned about Obama following Clinton’s playbook of robbing the military to pay for his social programs but we are very much light years ahead of anyone and will remain so for decades to come.
The United States will be the world Superpower and the world wants it that way. Europe likes to use us as a proxy for fighting their arguments; Balkans, Iraq 1 and 2, etc.
In terms of dumping our dollar, good luck. They own way to much of it. Who are they going to dump it to Kenya?
We sold to the biggest investors and their monetary and banking systems are in way, way worse shape than ours.
Should we watch them and take them seriously? Sure.
But as once heard on Star Trek they are not a threat and won’t be in my lifetime.
The list of disadvantages for China are pretty huge and our ADM(super market to the world) can be paid to not ship rice and other food stuffs.
Nothing like a demoralized and hungry army who will lack will and energy.
But you really have an under appreciation for our guys.
Too bad.
Heck the entire Tulepov line of bombers, right up the Bear was based on the B-29.
What are you basing that on? I'm all for giving the men and women who serve on the carriers the credit for self sacrifice, valor in face of adversity, etc. And they deserve credit for learning the skills necessary to communicate with one another to make the launching and landing of aircrafts appear effortless.
But building an aircraft carrier, whether by the US, French or the Chinese requires the designing of millions of parts. And designed to specifications where they all fit. And the computer systems for the carrier will need to be designed and built. The software for the shipboard systems will need to be written.
China will likely use the CATIA system to design her carrier. And each part will require design specs, and have it fit up with adjacent parts. And, of course, during the build phase, will require dealing with tens of thousands of non-conformity issues.
I suspect alot of the people on here who are agreeing with what you are saying have either a military background or is closely associeted with the military. Military personnel deserve credit for their valor. But give engineers and all those involved in building the military equipment you use, the credit they deserve.
No, not just anybody can build one. It's darned expensive and requires a lot of specialised knowledge. Whether the Chicoms have the bucks and the know-how remains to be seen.
the challenge is to actually be able to use it..
That is indeed a much greater challenge.
I'm afraid I can't find an example of any empire (read: superpower) in history that lost it's moral compass and somehow recovered it's senses and turned back to diligence and ethics without undergoing a catastrophic transformation. September 11, 2001 didn't give us the impetus to correct the gross excesses of our government. In fact, we used to expand the government more.
pre wwII, we just put a deck on top of old oiler ships and flew planes off of them....anybody can do that and have a functional aircraft carrier.....
All that is fine and dandy as far as it goes.
But the battle that will determine whether we continue as a free people or not will be fought on the political field. And at this point in time we are losing. We are losing because more and more of the people are being cinvinced by the politucans and the media that they are entitled to things they id not earn, [to wit] other people’s money.
The politican tells these people,”You want this, you are entitled to that.” Elect me and I will get it for you. And so it goes on and on. Until there are more parasites than producers. Even though they are miniscule in size, enough fleas , lefy unchecked, can kill the largest dog. This, in a nutshell, is what is presently happening to us as a Nation.
1) Prove that the "aircraft carrier" was a viable concept.
2) Learn the requirements for a real, purpose-built aircraft carrier.
3) Gain experience in shipboard air operations.
USS Ranger (CV-4), the first USN ship to be a carrier from the keel up, (Lexington and Saratoga were laid down as battlecruisers) was ordered in 1930.
In fact, USS Langley (CV-1) was the only USN carrier to have begun life as other than a surface combatant.
The Royal Navy was much more into converting merchant ships, but were building true keel-up carriers at the same time.
I have not said a think under appreciating ‘our guys’. My dad and sister were ‘our guys’. As someone whose job is to engineering things to give our guys an edge I would do them no favors by underestimating what they could go up against. Cockiness wins no wars. Taking our potential foes seriously does not dishonor our troops. It values them.
There has never been a ship that couldn’t be sunk. A large enough barrage of guided rockets and cruise missles launched simultaneously should be able to overwhelm any automated defense the carrier system has.
ping
Yes, I would agree. Or signals for communicating with aircraft during landing and take off. Or communication techniques with the aircraft and other vessels, during deployment. Protocols, etc.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just think that when our backs are up against a wall, if that were ever to happen again, we are going to come out the winner.
However, I am only concerned that China is building at this point but, they cannot manufacture reliable autos so that gives me pause in terms of their ability to challenge us.
They are only a 1 Trillion dollar economy, at this point and they would be competing with a 14 trillion dollar economy, Which in a crunch would combine with Canada, Australia and UK.
I just don’t see them as a credible threat any time soon. They cannot manufacture the numbers of offensive weapons and delivery systems to sustain any action against us and they would still have the problem of feeding the men, resupply and replacement parts.
At this point they are only someone to watch.
That is a post I can agree with.
That is no joke. Combining everything into a Department of Homeland sounds very German to me and the Patriot Act is a travesty that will, I say absolutely will, be used on regular Americans.
It must be repealed.
It is difficult when you are talking about a country that has not had a Blue Water Navy for almost 1000 years. They lack the experience in Carrier tactics, operations, supply, Carrier aviation, Carrier defense...I could go on.
I am not saying that they could NOT do it, I am just saying that it will take decades and several generations of Carrier designs for them to have a competent Navy. As I stated, just because you can copy a thing does not mean that you understand a thing in depth.
This situation should be taken seriously. But they will find, just like the Russians and French, how difficult this stuff is.
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Operating a fleet carrier isn’t as easy as it looks, and it does’t look easy.
well my dad can beat up your dad.....:)
LOL
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