Posted on 11/08/2009 5:00:51 PM PST by ~Kim4VRWC's~
"...These soldiers were entrusted to carry fully automatic, military assault rifles when deployed to Afghanistan, where the shooter was about to be sent. But in America, these same soldiers are disarmed when on base. From the Associated Press: Soldiers at Fort Hood don't carry weapons unless they are doing training exercises...."
(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...
How many times do we have to experience the ‘gun-free zone’ massacre to begin wondering if maybe the ‘gun-free zone’ might be part of the problem?
What a load of crap! I was never stationed on a post where I had access or needed access to my weapon. The only time I was under arms was when I was issued a sidearm to guard the Ammo Depot at Ft. Bliss. I had my own personal pistol kept in the arms room and I had to sign it out just like I did my M-16. One benefit to having an M1911 signed into the arms room was that the armorer changed out the firing pin, barrel and grips from left over parts.
An armed society is a polite society. - Robert A. Heinlein
So Soldiers need Police protection...?
Right.
Any Jihadists attacking a police station ? They all have guns there, ya know ?
‘twas that way when I was in too.
Except when I found out that my BAR 7 Mag, plus ammo, had been used without my permission...
Rules aren’t the same for all of the people, as you’ve no doubt figured out by now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
"Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment! "
Getting tired of civilians with NO knowledge making stupid comments about being armed on a military base.
***I had my own personal pistol kept in the arms room and I had to sign it out just like I did my M-16****
The same for me. The Master at Arms later told me he hoped I would be shipped out in the middle of the night and not be able to retreive my pistol. Then HE would get to keep it!
I then found place off base to store it.
Consider that it’s the one of the easiest things in the world to simply pass a stupid law or put up a Self defense denial zone sign.
We should have a NEW law that says that IF you propose that there be one of these so-called ‘Gun-Free’ zones, then YOU should be Responsible to provide Armed protection to all who enter this zone.
If someone is going to Deny a person’s right to self defense, they damn well better be prepared to protect those persons.
If you are not prepared to protect those persons, then don’t deny them the basic human right of self defense.
Times are not the same as they were. We have to behave differently...and protect our soldiers. Let them be armed. What will it hurt?
“...Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world — and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.
...Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. ..
They hate our freedoms — our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other. ...They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa. These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.
...Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom — the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time — now depends on us.”
-——President Bush (9-20-01)
I’m sorry if everyone who has never lived on a base is ignorant about being on a base. We DON’T UNDERSTAND...considering the circumstances of what happened. Please explain to us who are ignorant. I just want them SAFE ON THEIR BASE, IN THEIR HOMES, WITH THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
The real problem is political correctness
by everyone in Washington DC.Starting with 0bama and Gates and Casey
and everyone who permitted this openly
self-identified jihadist to remain in the US Army.PC kills !
Read each other’s post, and explain to me why we civilians should not worry about the future safety of our loved ones who are selflessly serving out country. and Ruy Dias de Bivar, thank you for your service.
My uncle said he thought that the removal of guns from military posts started long long long ago - that it has little to do with the modern “gun free zone,” but lots to do with the time period during which the army became desegregated. I have no idea if this historically accurate, though.
The real underlying issue where the military oscillates back and forth is arming guards. The security "issues" on a base are generally dealing with drunks, the odd protestor, and curious members of the public. A typical military base has a real security threat about once a decade. The rate of death/accident from mishandling firearms is a couple per year when guards are armed. It is an easy calculation. - I was a former weapons officer with responsibility for guarding nuclear weapons on a submarine.
Most people really do know that they are not safe at the mall, and that public events are major targets - but civilians have mistakenly believed that there were plenty of MPs guarding the military posts and bases on American soil. Did not realize otherwise.
It has lots to do with some 18 year old on the gate at 3:00AM bored out of his skull playing quick draw mcgraw and shooting himself in the thigh, or taking out his buddy on the other gate.
You and I served in another time. We didn’t have terrorists who vowed to kill us as fellow soldiers.
I have no problem with military personnel with CCW license being allowed to carry anywhere, on base or off in these “modern” times.
Inotherwords, “Boys will be boys and kids will be kids!” LOL
Things were not always that way Bad Jack. In the USMC right up until the M-16 was a Standard Issue we always had access to our rifles. Some of us even had ready access to our Issue M3 Grease Guns which were mounted on the uprights of our racks.
It was about the time of good old Patricia Hearst and her gang of cut throats that the issue of the Marines having ready access to their arms became a concern. Some of her gang members came aborad USMC Base Camp Pendleton and made off with a slew of the Grease guns which caused the Comandant to tighten up the access to the guns.
If you had brought your pistol to my armory, we would have given it back to you in Match Condition.
Semper Fi
An Old Man
Thank you so much for your informative reply. I apologize for my ignorance, but please see post #17, after a few days to think about it, it’s beyond heartbreaking for us outsiders. We don’t know nuthin. Yes, I’ve had 2 close members of my family serve during vietnam, another family member service more recently, and a few friends. But this topic was never brought up. I love our military..and because of 9/11, and now hasan...my feelings about our country’s safety has changed. I never dreamed in a million years our pentagon would be hit....the way it was. it changed EVERYTHING.
A lot of things can go down on an army post that would lend one to believe that soldiers carrying arms constantly might not be a good idea.
But OTOH, maybe things have to change.Obviously there needs to be more armed presence inside of our army posts.
This incident proves it.
It’s also death by PC...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting
Fort Hood shooting
Neither military-issued nor personal weapons may be carried about the base by typical soldiers. Lt. General Robert W. Cone, commander of the III Corps and Fort Hood, stated the on-base firearm policy: "As a matter of practice, we do not carry weapons on Fort Hood. This is our home." [81] Military weapons are only used for training or by base security, and personal weapons must be kept locked away by the provost marshal. [82] Specialist Jerry Richard, a soldier working at the Readiness Center, expressed the opinion that this policy had left them unnecessarily vulnerable to violent assaults: "Overseas you are ready for it. But here you can't even defend yourself." [44]
If an officer had said “NIGGER” 30 or 40 times - or maybe just twice - he would have been drummed out. But a MUSLIM? They can say anything and get a pass? The Army’s a joke.
Do the math, we have around 2.5 million uniformed military out there. What is wear and tear combined with theft cost on that many weapons carried, banged around and lost with 2.5 million human error candidates out there?
Better MP coverage is a good answer. armed to the teeth in the secretarial pool and infirmary is retarded.
My friend said that if the victims had all been black, obama would have been at fort hood the day it happened.
There is really no need for the entire base to be armed 24/7, IMO that would cause more problems than it would solve.
Having said that, no matter what level of protection is afforded, there will be times when nutcases will kill innocent people and there is nothing anyone can do about it. We have had incidents in the middle of war zones, where nutcases have killed people and everyone was armed at the time.
so what will they do about that now.. that's what I want to know. I understand kids and drinking and have to control that part of the environment. I really do. But what about MP's guarding more than gates? My cousin was an MP...why can't they have them move freely on the base?
Okay, that makes sense too. Just trying to understand, and comprehend what changes if any can be made.
There is one wicked PC double standard going on...
” I was never stationed on a post where I had access or needed access to my weapon.”
Well, it seems times they are a changin’.
Your tagline, excellent.
We've always known it - and liberals will NEVER know it...
Have you ever lived on a military installation?
If you haven't then you wouldn't really understand the reason why everyone is not allowed to pack heat.
It took 3+ minutes for police to respond to the massacre. During that time, 40+ unarmed victims were shot.
How many of the soldiers in that killing zone had concealed carry permits, and would have been able to shoot back-—off base?
Why can an NCO be trusted with a machine gun in Iraq, but not a legal CCW pistol on base in Texas?
The real underlying issue where the military oscillates back and forth is arming guards. The security "issues" on a base are generally dealing with drunks, the odd protestor, and curious members of the public. A typical military base has a real security threat about once a decade. The rate of death/accident from mishandling firearms is a couple per year when guards are armed. It is an easy calculation. - I was a former weapons officer with responsibility for guarding nuclear weapons on a submarine.
And how is that any different than "out in town," where there are drunks, muggers, the odd protester, car jacker etc etc. The military could very easily allow concealed/open carry of personnel firearms to SNCOs (or at least personnel and dependants/retirees over 21) with a CCW and valid military ID. All other non-military ID holders/non-LEOs would be restricted from carrying weapons on base. Would this prevent non-LEO/non-mil ID holders from carrying? No. But it would serve as a deterance and allow for punishment of unauthorized carry. It would also allow military members and dependants the same security on base as off.
Please tell me you weren't a Marine because this " very very scary" statement is making me sick to my stomach. Most of the Marines I know have 2-3+ deployments to Iraq. And know this isn't some rear echelon or the bottom of the ocean, but no kidding on patrol in the streets of Al Anbar Province.
Firearms and the ability to protect one's self may seem scary to you but for real men (read "grunts") its a way of life.
Furthermore, it is ridiculous that I have a CCW and can carry out in town; however, to come on base I have to remove my magazine from my weapon. Remove the rounds from the magazine and lock my pistol seperate from my amuniton (even though I can buy both at the PX). And then have to re-load everything so I can carry when withdrawing/depositing money at the credit union in town or picking up a gallon of milk in the store. Oh yeah, and this is on a base that allows civilians without DoD decals.... so who knows what they are bringing on base. But, God help me if I get caught with a loaded weapon in my vehicle.
An armed soldier (over 21 because thats the civilian handgun law; preferably a SNCO) could have instantly stopped Hasan the moment he yelled "Allah Akbar" and squeezed off around. But instead 13 people are dead and 30+ are injured..... because guns are "very very scary."
If we continue to allow our bases to be soft targets they will continue to be hit. And you can't tell me two bored Pfcs at the gate casually scanning IDs makes a "hard target." Our enemies are determined. Military bases are an enticing target. My felow Marines and I selflessly put our lives on the line to defend 300+ million Americans grateful or not, but can't defend ourselves on base.... and the hassle of bringing a weapon on base means it is less likely we will be armed on our way to/from work.
***The notion of 1000s of 18 years olds running around armed, sober, drunk, chasing women, coming back after striking out, and all of that is very very scary.***
LOL! One time our barracks won some prize for efficiency at our air base. As a result the entire barracks was invited to the NCO club for all we could drink! After a couple of beers several of us went into town as we DID NOT want to be at the barracks that evening.
When we returned (sober) that night we found that the CQ had to call out the riot squad and the APES (Air Police), as we called them, completely surrounded the barracks because there were so many drunk and disorderly soldiers there.
We missed it!
Straw man argument. Nobody is arguing that every drunk 18 year old be packing heat 24/7.
But what about sober 21 year old NCOs and up, who have Texas CCW permits?
Would the situation in Fort Hood have been better, or worse, if the killer had not been unopposed for 3+ minutes in a killing pen?
And yes the do random checks. Its bullshit to the highest order. They enforce every other state law on the base but not the rights. I guess if I don't like it I can find another job, but I am doing some good stuff for our green suiters so I put up with their bullshit.
GMTA
Yes, many.
If you haven't then you wouldn't really understand the reason why everyone is not allowed to pack heat.
Straw man argument. Nobody is arguing for that. We are arguing that the killer was able to shoot 40+ victims in 3+ minutes because he knew they were all unarmed.
If an NCO or officer in that room had a CCW pistol, the shooting might have been over before 40+ helpless sheep were shot down.
I remember right afte 911 our base had gate guards the next day, carrying M-16s. I heard they didn't have ammo so I asked one one day and he admitted, they weren't "trusted with ammo". What a damn sick joke. I feel sorry for our soldiers, but they need to wake up, like the rest of us. Stay out of places where you are vulnerable.
And the notion of 10,000s of 21 yr olds (the legal age to carry a firearm in this state) running around armed, sober, drunk, chasing women (and men), coming back after striking out isn’t scary in Hometown, USA? I don’t see any difference. At least my son has had training in the proper use of a weapon. On the other hand, I know a bunch of gun-toting civilian idiots who are a danger to everyone in 3 counties.
Our military bases are not "soft targets" and we don't have waves of screaming ninjas attacking our bases and killing folks every day. Indeed, if you and your friends try it on once (I don't mean you personally RO), we will visit your friends and relatives back home and you won't like the outcome.
So far, this was a one off incident by an American on the inside. I am not taking it lightly. But the gun thing I raised is a real issue. I have seen some really ticked off E-8's back from a good night on liberty, who I would not trust with a firearm, ever, and they have done tours of duty in places and situations that would make your hair - yes yours RO - stand on end if I could tell you about them (I would have to shoot you afterwords, however).
And BTW any true warrior is sick at what is happening to our men on the ground in Afghanistan. Idiotic mission, stupid ROE's, obvious lack of coordinated air support or ground fire support when they get into trouble, using marines to try to fight the WOD's etc.. I have no problem in a real tactical situation with creating complete and utter havoc using as much lead and HE as you can lay your hands on.
But from what we know so far, this was one isolated American nut case, and not an external attack on a "soft target."
I don’t think you can read or comprehend well. The poster said he never had a NEED for a firearm on a base. I said times are changing. Apparently there is now a NEED for a firearm on a base. Or at least the permission to carry your own.
That's at least three incidents.
This is unacceptable...and everyone needs to speak out against it. I have yet to see anyone say that mp's all over the place would NOT help prevent this from happening again.
or at the least, armed sober on duty mp’s everywhere, especially at special events. Make it so the enemy WON’T do this.
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