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Discrimination Against Intelligent Design Film Cited in California Science Center Lawsuit
Evolution News & Views ^ | November 25, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 11/25/2009 10:15:23 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

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1 posted on 11/25/2009 10:15:25 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

For the record, this post is being posted in News/Activism by the express permission of Jim Robinson, founder and owner of Free Republic:

“Debate on church doctrine and or threads on specific religious matters may be best posted in the religion forum, but the defense of religious freedom, especially against those who wish to deprive us of same belongs front and center on FR.

They banned God and prayer and creationism from public schools and public places, but I’ll be damned if they’re gonna ban Him or it from FR!”

—Jim Robinson

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2203455/posts?page=78#78


2 posted on 11/25/2009 10:16:21 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

The TRUTH scares them.

Darwin and evolution are a farce. The problem is their “faith” in them has become a “religion”. Evolution and Darwin define life down. It is one of the reasons life is viewed as cheap. Human life is viewed as road kill and no big deal.


3 posted on 11/25/2009 10:18:10 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

The TRUTH does more than scare, it offends them. It has the audacity to tell them they are wrong. Oh the huge manatee.


4 posted on 11/25/2009 10:19:31 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Don't think for a minute that the Evo scientists aren't doing the same thing that the Eco scientists got caught doing recently.
5 posted on 11/25/2009 10:20:33 AM PST by Between the Lines (For their sins of 50 million abortions God gave them over to be an ObamaNation {Romans 1:24-32})
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To: GodGunsGuts

As with global warming, so with evolution. Science will be a lot better off when it’s back in the hands of scientists, instead of being in the hands of ideo-political hacks who also happen to have science degrees.


6 posted on 11/25/2009 10:26:29 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (There are only two REAL conservatives in America - myself, and my chosen Presidential candidate)
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To: RoadGumby

The TRUTH does more than scare, it offends them. It has the audacity to tell them they are wrong. Oh the huge manatee.

Prov.8:13

[13] The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Prov.11:2

[2] When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Prov.16:18

[18] Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

The Bible sure knows the human nature of the evil ones.


7 posted on 11/25/2009 10:26:57 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Between the Lines
How dare you make such a connection! Your reply should be deleted as not being in the public's interest. Haven't you heard, our scientists have declared the debate over. Get with the program, or else!
8 posted on 11/25/2009 10:30:57 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Amen to that!!!


9 posted on 11/25/2009 10:31:39 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

PS Are you saying that the notion that scientists are impartial and apolitical is a farce? Are you saying that it is time for the American people to start questioning their motives, as well as their science? Have you no descency, sir!


10 posted on 11/25/2009 10:33:33 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: nmh

And scare them it should!


11 posted on 11/25/2009 10:39:59 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Sadly it takes a lawsuit to force the Cal. Science Center to honor a contract. But if that's what it takes to stop the bullying of the Darwinists at the Mythsonian.
12 posted on 11/25/2009 11:13:54 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: count-your-change

Mythsonian...I can’t say it has a nice ring to it, but it certainly has the ring of the cold, hard truth.


14 posted on 11/25/2009 11:31:05 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
"For the record, this post is being posted in News/Activism by the express permission of Jim Robinson..."

All, do not assume this is legitimate news or that Jim Robinson endorses the content. This is NOT about the defense of religious freedom, it is about the doctrine of certain churches, which is outside the purview of JR's statement.

(note: no one should be surprised that Less (GGG) has taken the same liberties with the statements and positions of FR's founder as he has with both Scripture and science.)

15 posted on 11/25/2009 12:58:07 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: count-your-change; GodGunsGuts
Sadly it takes a lawsuit to force the Cal. Science Center to honor a contract. But if that's what it takes to stop the bullying of the Darwinists at the Mythsonian.

It's the only thing they understand.

16 posted on 11/25/2009 1:03:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law; GodGunsGuts
All, do not assume this is legitimate news or that Jim Robinson endorses the content.

Wow. You know what JR is thinking and are speaking for him?

On whose authority? Did he appoint you to act as his spokesperson? Or are you just reading his mind and letting us know what he's transmitting to you?

Got any links to back that up?

tell us, why isn't news of a lawsuit legitimate news?

Should we then consider all news of lawsuits not legitimate news?

17 posted on 11/25/2009 1:07:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"Wow. You know what JR is thinking and are speaking for him?"

I actually read what JR posted. The meaning is quite clear. If you want to discuss issues of faith, creation, and those dirty evos then the religion forum is for you. If you want to discuss assaults on religious freedom then news and activism is the right place.

Who appointed you anything either?

18 posted on 11/25/2009 1:34:33 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: metmom; GodGunsGuts
"why isn't news of a lawsuit legitimate news?"

Because suits of this nature are frivilous.

"On March 23, 2009, the Supreme Court denied certiorari without comment to Caldwell v. Caldwell, which challenged the constitutionality of the Understanding Evolution website — a joint project of the University of California Museum of Paleontology and the National Center for Science Education. The San Francisco Chronicle (March 23, 2009) reports, “One page on Cal’s 840-page ‘Understanding Evolution’ web site says Darwinism can be compatible with religion. The four-year-old suit by Jeanne Caldwell said the government-funded web site contradicts her religious belief about the incompatibility of religion and Darwinism and amounts to a state position on religious doctrine that violates the Constitutional separation of church and state.” Caldwell filed suit in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in 2005. But her suit was dismissed in 2006 because she failed to allege that she had federal taxpayer standing, failed to sufficiently allege state taxpayer standing, and failed to establish that she suffered a concrete “injury in fact.” When she appealed the decision, the appellate court’s decision concluded, “Accordingly, we believe there is too slight a connection between Caldwell’s generalized grievance, and the government conduct about which she complains, to sustain her standing to proceed.” Reacting to the Supreme Court’s decision not to hear the case, a lawyer for the University of California told the Chronicle, “We believe the lower court rulings were correct, and we’re glad this ends the matter.”"

As a Christian I am alarmed by any attempt by any faith, including my own, to attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of anything remotely theological. Once precedent is set, there would be no prohibition of utilizing my tax dollars to promote Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Wiccan, Mormon, Satanic, or Pagan theology.

19 posted on 11/25/2009 1:46:53 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
Front and center! This is good news, excellent news in fact.
We all should be glad that a tax supported entity is being challenged for it's failure to honor a contract and its discrimination against a particular viewpoint.

You agree the Center shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against a film just because they may not like its viewpoint, don't you?

20 posted on 11/25/2009 1:59:02 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"You agree the Center shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against a film just because they may not like its viewpoint, don't you?"

Yes, but......I also agree that public funds and resources should remain completely secular. I don't want my taxes supporting anybodies religion, not even my own. Don't you agree the government would do worse job with religion than it would do with health-care?

21 posted on 11/25/2009 2:20:37 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: GodGunsGuts

In addition to the indisputable militant atheism, a part of the problem is the Young Earth creationism (and associated ‘creation science’ charlatanry), which gives all other branches of creationism a bad name.


22 posted on 11/25/2009 2:39:57 PM PST by Behemoth the Cat
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To: Natural Law
What was at question here was facilities that were rented out to many different groups just as community buildings and school auditoriums are or county fair grounds are.

No one is suggesting even remotely that renting an Imax theater to someone implies support of the group so the question of government involvement with religion was never an issue. It was the purported association of the Smithsonian and a certain viewpoint in someones mind and the honoring of a valid contract that was the issue at hand.

I have as much legal right to use the public, paid for by taxes, street for a religious or other opinion parade as the most irreligious, secular group in the world even if the city doesn't like my viewpoint and they are bound to honor a contract with me even if a museum doesn't like it.

The Center and it's actions were wrong.

23 posted on 11/25/2009 2:57:15 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"The Center and it's actions were wrong."

The courts will decide that. Until then it isn't news.

24 posted on 11/25/2009 3:05:37 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
Happily you are not the arbiter of what is news and what is not news. Nor of what constitutes conversion of public resources to religious purposes as the center tried to be.

Had the local Catholic Church been told they couldn't rent a theater available to all others, you would be crying discrimination and intolerance and the sanctity of contracts, wouldn't you?
And all those hated creationists would argue they had as much right as anyone.

25 posted on 11/25/2009 3:15:20 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"Happily you are not the arbiter of what is news and what is not news."

And I you.

26 posted on 11/25/2009 4:06:28 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: GodGunsGuts

Another repost of stuff you posted before. It was several weeks ago. This is a frivolous lawsuit because the religious group violated the contract.


27 posted on 11/25/2009 5:42:40 PM PST by Wacka
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To: Natural Law

Had the local Catholic Church been told they couldn’t rent a theater available to all others, you would be crying discrimination and intolerance and the sanctity of contracts, wouldn’t you?


28 posted on 11/25/2009 6:13:18 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Natural Law
As a Christian I am alarmed by any attempt by any faith, including my own, to attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of anything remotely theological.

As a Christian, are you alarmed by the attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of things clearly anti-theological?

29 posted on 11/25/2009 6:18:55 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: UCANSEE2
"As a Christian, are you alarmed by the attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of things clearly anti-theological?"

You clearly know as little about law as you do science and theology.

30 posted on 11/25/2009 6:23:06 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

I don’t claim to be an expert at all three, as you appear to be doing. I asked a question, which you are dodging.


31 posted on 11/25/2009 6:39:48 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: Natural Law

Allow me to ask it a different way, as to leave religion out of it.

“As an American, are you alarmed by the attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of things clearly anti-American?”


32 posted on 11/25/2009 6:42:29 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: UCANSEE2

It’s not just your question as you can see from #25 and 28.


33 posted on 11/25/2009 6:47:31 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Natural Law
there would be no prohibition of utilizing my tax dollars to promote Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Wiccan, Mormon, Satanic, or Pagan theology.

And you are completely sure that this is not already the case?

34 posted on 11/25/2009 6:50:45 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: count-your-change; Natural Law

I noticed.
I also noticed that we are not getting any direct answers, yet.
I will be patient. Perhaps Mr. Law will respond.


35 posted on 11/25/2009 6:54:33 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: count-your-change

BTW, I do believe that any theatre has the right to refuse to screen any selection of movie.

However, backing down after entering a contract to do so, I believe is a violation of law.


36 posted on 11/25/2009 6:57:37 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: UCANSEE2
Tax supported groups are in a different situation than a private owner, I think. The contract was agreed to and should have been honored but it will be interesting to see the follow up.
37 posted on 11/25/2009 7:09:43 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: UCANSEE2

Moving his ox so it won’t get gored.


38 posted on 11/25/2009 7:12:54 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
Tax supported groups are in a different situation than a private owner

I would agree. However, they still violated a contract, did they not? Why did they agree to show it in the first place?

39 posted on 11/25/2009 7:15:18 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: Natural Law
The courts will decide that. Until then it isn't news.

So, if your neighbor rapes and murders a little girl, until he gets convicted, it isn't news?

40 posted on 11/25/2009 7:17:17 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: count-your-change

Those of us who have carried on debates on highly charged subjects here on FR have pretty much seen it all.

The “you are an idiot compared to me” tactic is played all the time, and easily recognizable. Usually the poster wants you to respond by claiming you are ‘smarter’, or ‘know it all’ so they then can try to prove to you how they have this one niche of expertize which should cause us all to go prostrate at their feet.

They come here (FR) to ‘teach’, not to ‘learn’. And that is their loss.


41 posted on 11/25/2009 7:26:09 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: UCANSEE2
What I meant by the tax supported group being in a different situation is that they have to be neutral whereas a private owner might be able to just refuse.
Schools have faced the same choice, be even about renting public facilities or rent to no one.

And right you are, the contract was valid from all reports and whatever someone else says about the event has nothing to do with it.

I suppose the Center agreed before they rec'd their orders from above (The Great Mythsonian).

42 posted on 11/25/2009 7:48:50 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: UCANSEE2

It do get funny after a while. Cheers!


43 posted on 11/25/2009 7:53:05 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: UCANSEE2
"“As an American, are you alarmed by the attempt to convert public resources to the perpetuation of things clearly anti-American?”"

It depends in how you define anti-American. Besides, elections have consequences. If we want to change government policy we need to change those we elect.

44 posted on 11/25/2009 9:19:24 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: All

So is the complaint about a contract being broken or that id/creationism don’t belong in a scientific forum?


45 posted on 11/26/2009 5:19:12 AM PST by TooFarGone (Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.)
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To: TooFarGone

“More details are now coming out from the lawsuit filed against the California Science Center by the American Freedom Alliance (AFA), filed in the Superior Court for the State of California for the County of Los Angeles (Central District). AFA’s lawsuit contends that the California Science Center engaged in viewpoint discrimination when cancelling AFA’s contract to screen the pro-intelligent design (ID) documentary Darwin’s Dilemma at the Center’s IMAX Theatre on October 25th.”


46 posted on 11/26/2009 10:26:04 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"viewpoint discrimination"

The California Science Center relies on California General Fund support. By California state law the charter of the CSC prohibits nonsecular activities and programming. This mandates "viewpoint discrimination". As a California taxpayer I do not want my hard earned money going to promote any secular activities or, in the case of the California Science Center, non-science related materials like YEC and other "Chariots of the Gods" like pseudo science.

47 posted on 11/26/2009 11:21:48 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

Perhaps you can quote or show that “state charter”? The school has a state charter and the foundation by law has it’s bylaws but what is the charter of the Center that prohibits “non-secular” activities?


48 posted on 11/26/2009 12:40:33 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"Perhaps you can quote or show that “state charter”? The school has a state charter and the foundation by law has it’s bylaws but what is the charter of the Center that prohibits “non-secular” activities?"

Either you are sloppy or intentionally misrepresenting my statement;

1) There is no "state charter". There is the CA constitution and CA state law. You can find it all at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

2) The California Science Center is NOT a school.

49 posted on 11/26/2009 4:49:45 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
Your comment, my caps.

“The California Science Center relies on California General Fund support. By California state law the CHARTER of the CSC prohibits nonsecular activities and programming. This mandates “viewpoint discrimination”. AND

“1) There is no “state charter. There is the CA constitution and CA state law.” 2) The California Science Center is NOT a school.”

That's good since I didn't say it was a school.

“You can find it all at
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html";
I'm not going to wade through the entire California legal code to find what you say is there but cannot produce.

However a 30 second search of google produced:

“Science Center School
Learn about the elementary school located on our campus.....

Imagine an elementary school with all of the resources a teacher or parent could ever want. It’s located near world-class museums, a major university and a state-of-the-art teacher professional development center. The school features an integrated curriculum emphasizing science, mathematics and the use of technology. Its teachers are fully credentialed with a demonstrated ability to make science and math engaging and accessible to their students. And it’s not a magnet school but, rather, a neighborhood school for underserved groups of children and their parents. While such a school seems like a dream, it is a dream that has become reality in South Los Angeles, the result of more than a decade of collaborative work between the California Science Center and the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD).
www.californiasciencecenter.org/.../ScienceCenterSchool/ScienceCenterSchool.php”

PS...IT'S A CHARTER SCHOOL! On the grounds!

I don't think it's me that is sloppy or misrepresenting.

50 posted on 11/26/2009 6:27:06 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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