Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium

Seeling Alpha ^ | 29 Nov 09 | John L. Petersen

[shove_it]

[...]

In other words it is very likely that the $68 million in ARRA battery manufacturing grants that went to lead-carbon battery manufacturers will generate greater gasoline savings and C02 emission reductions than the $1.2 billion in ARRA grants that went to lithium-ion battery companies. This is not a question of faith. The numbers cannot lie and the magnitude of the differences is too big to ignore. If you really want to make a difference, you take the baby steps and harvest the low-hanging fruit first.

Nobody with a spreadsheet and a rudimentary understanding of mathematics can honestly argue that subsidizing batteries for GEVs will hold a votive candle to using the same funds to subsidize batteries for Prius class HEVs. Adding the cost of GEV charging stations to the abysmal economics results in a picture that nobody but the blindly faithful could love. I have no doubt that a variety of GEVs will be introduced over the next couple of years because that's what the new religion demands. For obvious reasons, I expect the phenomenon to be a flash in the pan.

[...]

[Ol' Dan Tucker]

OK, I give up. So what’s a GEV?

"Give a man some bread and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man how to bake and you'll feed him for a lifetime."

There's a really neat concept on the web, called a 'search engine'.

It allows one to feed his intellectual curiosity on a wide variety of subjects.

I like to use one called, 'Google.com'.

Ever heard of it?

[fireman15]

The Lithium cells you can buy at Walmart, etc. are not rechargeable. Look at the packages.

[ColdWater]

The Lithium cells you can buy at Walmart, etc. are not rechargeable. Look at the packages.

Hmmm. You seem to have dropped the "-ion" from "Li-Ion".

[thackney]

Look at the performance of hybrids, the highway miles compared to city miles have very little gain. Sometimes the highway mileage even goes down. Also compare to same models non-hybrid.

Honda Civic - city 40 - hwy 45 Hybrid
Honda Insight - city 40 - hwy 43 Hybrid

Lexus GS 450h - city 22 - hwy 25 Hybrid
Lexus HS 250h - city 35 - hwy 34 Hybrid

Chevrolet Malibu - city 22 - hwy 30 (2.4l, non-Hybrid)
Chevrolet Malibu - city 26 - hwy 34 (2.4l, Hybrid)

Ford Fusion - city 23 - hwy 34 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Ford Fusion - city 41 - hwy 36 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Nissan Altima - city 23 - hwy 32 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Nissan Altima - city 35 - hwy 33 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Toyota Camry - city 22 - hwy 32 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Toyota Camry - city 33 - hwy 34 (2.4l, Hybrid)

Chevrolet Silverado P/U - city 13 - hwy 19 (6.2l, non-Hybrid)
Chevrolet Silverado P/U - city 21 - hwy 22 (6.0l, Hybrid)

Ford Escape - city 21 - hwy 28 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Ford Escape - city 34 - hwy 31 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Mazda Tribute - city 21 - hwy 28 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Mazda Tribute - city 34 - hwy 31 (2.5l, Hybrid)

BMW X6 - city 13 - hwy 18 (4.4l, non-Hybrid)
BMW X6 - city 17 - hwy 19 (4.4l, Hybrid)

All values above from:
2010 Fuel Economy Guide
EPA / Dept of Energy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2010.pdf

[fireman15]

“Hmmm. You seem to have dropped the “-ion” from “Li-Ion”.”

I was trying to be diplomatic because your assertion that you can buy rechargeable Li-Ion cells at major retailers is mistaken. There are a large variety of Lithium based batteries available at major retailers which I assumed was what you were referring to. Major retailers do not sell individual rechargeable Li-Ion cells. These are considered too dangerous for major retailers to sell to the public because if they are used improperly they can and do catch on fire and sometimes explode. I am not aware that you can even special order them through Radio Shack.

The only rechargeable Li-ion batteries sold at major retailers are specialty battery packs made up for tools, cell phones, computers, cameras and similar electronic devices. These batteries have circuitry built into them or will only fit in devices or rechargers with circuitry built into them which protect them from the temperamental and negative characteristics of rechargeable Li-Ion cells.

If you could give a more specific example of the point you are trying to make… I am sure we could agree. If I have stated something in a way that can be misinterpreted… I am sorry.

[_Jim]

I haven't checked convenience stores lately but you can buy them at Walmart, Radio Shack, Home Depot, Rite-Aid, Walgreens ....

Are you aware of the different charging requirements for Li-ion batteries vs Nicad, NiMH etc?

[ColdWater]

You can order them over the internet but the reason they are not sold over the counter as normal battery cells is that they are 3.7 volts and would fry your gadget and the charger would not put out enough voltage to charge them.

[ColdWater]

Are you aware of the different charging requirements for Li-ion batteries vs Nicad, NiMH etc?

Yes. Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells?

[_Jim]

Yes. Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells?

No.

I am not.

A)You failed to state under WHICH conditions (during discharge, beginning of discharge, beginning of charge, end of charge, ...)?

B) Nicad and NiMH are not in the 1.5 V category (we were traling secondary celles, were we not, and not primary cells?)

You wanna see the data sheet from Panasonic on Li-ion?

Sheesh.

[ColdWater]

"Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells? "

No. I am not.

Then you are totally ignorant on Li-ion battery technology and should keep your mouth shut.

[_Jim]

Overview:

www.actec.dk/Panasonic/pdf/li-ionoverview.pdf

Charging considerations (observing these precautions could save your life, your property, etc.):

industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE4.pdf

[_Jim]

Then you are totally ignorant on Li-ion battery technology and should keep your mouth shut.

See, its like this.

I was baiting you.

And, well, you fell for it. Pretty hard I would say. Completely as a matter of fact.

I am in the process of converting a couple of old Ni-cad packs for a Yaesu FT-727R to Li-ion; it's calling for a whole new charging supervision system don't you know ... on account of the V-I charaacteritics of Li-Ion vs NiCads.

Don't you know.

Sheesh.

[_Jim]

I don’t think ‘ColdWater’ is rational. It dosn’t seem that way anyway ...

[fireman15]

I have dozens of rechargeable CR123a and 18650 Li-Ion cells. I have fried a lot of them over the years. They come in both 3v and 3.7v configurations and you can also get both internally protected and unprotected cells. I have specialty chargers made for both the 3v and 3.7v batteries. The chargers have circuitry that control several parameters not just the voltage. They generally won’t fit in gadgets that weren’t designed for them, but depending on the device you can still run into problems if you don’t keep close track of them.

My intention is not to say that Li-Ion cells are bad; obviously they are the best solution for an increasing number of applications. The hobbiests who know the most about them are generally making their own Li-Ion battery packs for R/C models and also people replacing bad cells in laptop and other expensive battery packs. If one is a battery enthusiast they can get a lot of performance out of these cells.

Originally my only point was that after fooling around with these a bit... one gets an appreciation for the engineering it will take to get them to meet the practical demands of an electric vehicle. It is much more challenging than using standard deep cycle lead acid batteries.

[ColdWater]

I am in the process of converting a couple of old Ni-cad packs for a Yaesu FT-727R to Li-ion; it's calling for a whole new charging supervision system don't you know ... on account of the V-I charaacteritics of Li-Ion vs NiCads.

Now that you know they are 3.7 volts instead of 1.2 volts, you have a better chance of success!

[ColdWater]

It is much more challenging than using standard deep cycle lead acid batteries.

Agreed. However with modern technolgy that challenge is being met.

[_Jim]

If you've got any application you're considering, I've found these work pretty well:

BAT1087
3.7V/670mAh
Rechargeable Lithium-Ion
Your Price $1.49

10-Or More $0.99 (Per Item) BG Micro - Li-ion batts

I've placed a couple sets if these in packs for 5W VHF/UHF hand-held transceivers ... with revised/modified charging circuits from they were originally equipped.

[fireman15]

“If you’ve got any application you’re considering, I’ve found these work pretty well:”

Thank you for the tip! I forgot, the guys that really know the most about rechargeable batteries are Radio guys. I have had good luck with BGMicro in the past. That is a very interesting cell; it sounds like it has good protection built in as well.

For the standard sized rechargeable Li-Ion cells... I have purchased most through dealextreme.com and certain ebay sellers. The Li-Ion batteries I have purchased have generally been of Chinese origin, so the quality control is not that great which accounts for some of my dead cells but in other cases I have inadvertantly abused the cells myself.

Lately I have been playing with these small high power LED flashlights for work, play, and bicycling. The 18650 cells are great for these, but CR123 cells have some advantages as well.

[truth_seeker]

The 2.0 liter turbodiesel Jetta get 30 mpg city and 40 mpg highway.

Of course you are correct about hybrid not improving highway mpg by much if any.

I do expect better mpg from a 1.5 liter turbodiesel than the 2.0 liter equivalent, however.

I claim no expertise, but read a lot of car highlights.

There are some models coming out with different technology-where the electric motor always powers the car, and the gas engine recharges the battery, after it goes off full electric.

Those include Chevy Volt, plus Fisker Karma and others. They are epected to get still higher mpg.

Anyway, these are interesting times, as the age of truly higher mpg emerges.

I know a few Prius owners who like their cars a lot. One claimed 60 mpg last weekend, but didn’t state the type of driving.

[thackney]

There are some models coming out with different technology-where the electric motor always powers the car, and the gas engine recharges the battery, after it goes off full electric.

Those include Chevy Volt, plus Fisker Karma and others. They are epected to get still higher mpg.

It will be interesting to me to see if that claim holds true beyond the "plug-in" advantage. I will be surprised if they achieve more efficiency from power solely originating from the engine.

The challenge I see for the series-hybrid application is that now the electrical motor will need to be larger for the same performance during acceleration. That is easily done, but it also means that during steady speed driving, the electric motor is more over-sized and running farther from its peak efficiency point.

The parallel-hybrid has the advantage of using power from both the gasoline engine and the electric motor to achieve the most power requiring event of acceleration. This allows the electric motor to be sized smaller and operate more closely to its peak efficiency in more of the operation. Of course the parallel-hybrid has other challenges including the complex transmission of power from both sources.

My guess is the series-hybrid will get the biggest claim in using power that is delivered via an extension cord at night and discarded in the comparisons of "mpg". That is a false comparison.

To me, only when we look at dollars per mile, include original purchase and maintenance, do we get a meaningful comparison. And that number will vary for individuals depending on how many miles per year and how long they own it. That is the comparison I use for my own purchases. It is only an estimate, but to me it has more meaning.