Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

EPA head: US must make up for lost time on climate
Yahoo News (AP) ^ | December 9, 2009 | John Heilprin

Posted on 12/09/2009 10:12:00 AM PST by UAConservative

COPENHAGEN – The top U.S. environmental official told a divided U.N. climate conference Wednesday that the Obama administration's moves to "make up for lost time" and cut greenhouse gases would complement congressional action and wasn't intended to bypass recalcitrant lawmakers.

The comments by Environmental Protection Agency chief Lisa Jackson came on the same day that the tiny Pacific island nation of Tuvalu — which would be among the first victims of rising seas — was rebuffed by the conference in an attempt to demand strong action against major polluting countries.

Jackson suggested the EPA's decision Monday that greenhouse gases should be regulated would be a dual path of action by the Obama administration and Congress.

"This is not an either/or moment. This is a both/and moment," she told more than 100 people who packed a U.S. meeting room in the conference center.

The EPA determined Monday that scientific evidence clearly shows they are endangering the health of Americans, and that the pollutants — mainly carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels — should be regulated under the Clean Air Act. That means the EPA could regulate those gases without the approval of Congress.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: agenda; bho44; bhoenvironment; bhoepa; bhofascism; bhotyranny; copenhagen; cwii; democrats; envirofascism; epa; epabrownshirts; epagestapo; globalwarming; lisajackson; obama; tyranny
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

1 posted on 12/09/2009 10:12:01 AM PST by UAConservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

Large waste water treatment plants would probably fall into this category, and some feedlot operators for swine and cattle and chickens might cross the threshold as well. But if not in the first round of regulation most certainly they are in the cross hairs for the second round.


2 posted on 12/09/2009 10:14:30 AM PST by junta (S.C.U.M. = State Controlled Unreliable Media)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

There’s a cheaper way to solve this “problem”. Just tell the researchers they won’t recieve a penny of government money until their funny little computer programs make funny little charts showing the temperature declining.


3 posted on 12/09/2009 10:16:25 AM PST by Brett66 (Where government advances, and it advances relentlessly , freedom is imperiled -Janice Rogers Brown)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

we are so screwed.

we wont be able to vote these a@@holes out fast enough. and you can be certain they will leave such a tangled mess of red tape behind them, it would take years to clear it all.

it was a nice country while it lasted. remember to take photos to show your kids what it was like.


4 posted on 12/09/2009 10:16:45 AM PST by tm61 (somewhere in chicago, a ward is missing it's crook)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
If they are insane, insitutionalize them. If they are criminal, incarcerate them.

Yes, the politicians, bureaucrats and climate frauds.

Maybe they will all freeze to death.

5 posted on 12/09/2009 10:16:49 AM PST by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative; All

COP15 Proposals – summary from AEP simulcast from Copenhagen today
(Americans for Prosperity) http://www.americansforprosperity.org/national-site
Simulcast at http://streaming.videofilesinc.com/events/afp/index.html

COP15 Proposals:
- Western Economic Tax of 2% of GDP
- Removal of IP/Patent Rights for New Technologies in Clean Technology
- US Constitution is “only paper”, so “Copenhagen Treaty” as been renamed an “ Executive Agreement” so Obama can sign it shortly
- Words “worldwide government” has been dropped from the “Treaty”; but there are 700 new global gov entities created
- The “Treaty” contains extensive, significant details (currently not being reported) on establishment of worldwide government
- Extensive political agenda of the COP15 meeting is being largely unreported

EPA Endangerment Finding:
- Covers 100% of McDonalds (any fast food restaurant)
- Covers all Mining, Cement Plants, PetroChemical Plants, Refineries, Trains, Shipping, Long-haul Trucks
- Covers all Manufacturing sites of any size
- Covers all Buildings in the US of moderate size and larger which use natural gas or heating oil for winter heat
- Unions are advocating “global welfare” for the millions who will become unemployed “during this necessary economic transition period”
- Estimates range from $1500 - $3000 per year in increased energy costs for the average family of 4 in the US

Rick Perry:
- 400,000 jobs will be lost in Texas from EPA finding
- Electricity costs will rise $1400 per family, on average

Steve (WSJ):
- In the 1970’s scientists & US gov provided extensive data that Global Cooling was occurring
- Global climate models cannot explain cooling over the last 10 years
- Only FOX News & WSJ are covering the ClimateGate Scandal
- Believes that defeat of EPA momentum on new rules and Healthcare bills can only be accomplished in the next 6-8 weeks; after that it will be difficult to reverse – may take a long time (see link to EPA “Federal Interagency Working Group on Environmental Justice (IWG)“ http://www.epa.gov/compliance/environmentaljustice/interagency/ )


6 posted on 12/09/2009 10:16:49 AM PST by Nobel_1 (bring on the Patriots!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

Congress is a bunch of spineless boobs.

Their power was usurped and they got kicked in the teeth.

Now the boobs are whimpering in the corner and hiding from the monster federal government they no longer control.

Democrat or Republican, they should all be up at arms about this shear coup of their power.

The fact that they aren’t is frightening.


7 posted on 12/09/2009 10:21:58 AM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
"We have been fighting to make up for lost time," Jackson said, referring to the Bush administration's rejection of the 1997 Kyoto Protocol,

Yet more Bush Derangement Syndrome?

The U.S. Senate REJECTED the Kyoto Protocol in 1997 by a vote of 95-0.

And the president at the time was Clinton!

Sigh...

8 posted on 12/09/2009 10:22:03 AM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

I thought epa was an advisory type thing.

Didn’t know they could make law.

Congress can now be relieved of thier duties, yes?


9 posted on 12/09/2009 10:22:50 AM PST by devistate one four (Back by popular demand: America love or leave it (GTFOOMC) TET68)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative; Entrepreneur; livius; DollyCali; According2RecentPollsAirIsGood; Thunder90; ...
 




Beam me to Planet Gore !

10 posted on 12/09/2009 10:26:56 AM PST by steelyourfaith (Time to prosecute Al Gore now that fellow scam artist Bernie Madoff is in stir.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

Now that we are in global cooling due to the lack of sunspot activity, that we will start feeling the affects of that in the next few years, will She and the EPA get all the credit or will administration trash her and the agency and take all the credit for themselves?


11 posted on 12/09/2009 10:27:17 AM PST by Paul Pierett (Paul Pierett)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dila813
Their power was usurped and they got kicked in the teeth.

No it wasn't!! Congress created the EPA and gave them regulatory power so that they could be relieved of actually doing what we pay them for and MAKING LAW!!!!

This was an absolutely well-planned end-around by Bammy because Congress wasn't passing his tyrannical, marxist agenda quickly enough.

12 posted on 12/09/2009 10:34:27 AM PST by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Nobel_1

Slaves to the EPA

sung to the tune of BORN IN THE USA

Born down in a normal town
The first crime I did was when I exhaled air
My parents criminal act was using heat too much
Till they spend half their life just paying up

Slaves to the EPA, We are owned by the EPA
I owe my life to the EPA, Owned by the EPA

My SUV is a little homegrown jam
So they put a golf cart in my hand
It was made in a foreign land
To pay back bill to the yellow man

Slaves to the EPA, We are owned by the EPA
I owe my life to the EPA, Owned by the EPA

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man said we are closing see
Went down to see solar man
He said son, don’t you understand

I had a brother at EXXON
Drilling wells that last so long
They’re not there, plugged and gone

He had a pickup he loved in Houston
I got a picture of it in Gov hands now

Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Gas fires out in the refinery
I’m ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain’t got nowhere to go

Slaves to the EPA, We are owned by the EPA
I owe my life to the EPA, Owned by the EPA
Owned by the EPA,
I’m a fool sucking victim of the EPA.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Political Humor/Cartoons; Click to Add Topic
KEYWORDS: chat; epa; vanity; Click to Add Keyword


13 posted on 12/09/2009 10:37:14 AM PST by BOBTHENAILER ( EPA will rule your life)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: DustyMoment

What Congress giveth it can take away, but they’re either too chicken, or in on the theft of our liberties by 0, to do so.


14 posted on 12/09/2009 10:39:44 AM PST by madison10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: madison10
What Congress giveth it can take away, but they’re either too chicken, or in on the theft of our liberties by 0, to do so.

Name one government agency or program that Congress has ever disbanded or defunded. I'll wait . . . .



(There isn't one because EVERY government agency represents one more extension of their power over us!!!)

15 posted on 12/09/2009 10:43:19 AM PST by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: madison10
What Congress giveth it can take away, but they’re either too chicken, or in on the theft of our liberties by 0, to do so.

Name one government agency or program that Congress has ever disbanded or defunded. I'll wait . . . .



(There isn't one because EVERY government agency represents one more extension of their power over us!!!)

16 posted on 12/09/2009 10:46:06 AM PST by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: DustyMoment

The law says how gases will be controled under the clean air act. EPA IS rewriting the law.

Congress got punked.


17 posted on 12/09/2009 10:46:58 AM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: DustyMoment

This is the first time a creation of congress gave them the bird salute.


18 posted on 12/09/2009 10:50:27 AM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

This bothers me so bad I feel as if I could toss cookies. I cannot stand this! I am so angry!


19 posted on 12/09/2009 10:54:31 AM PST by Irenic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DustyMoment

There most likely aren’t any except the Bush tax cuts if you count them. I was just saying that they “could” not that they ever would.


20 posted on 12/09/2009 10:58:31 AM PST by madison10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
I'm looking forward to the coming decade of colder winters... :-)


Dalton Minimum Returns

 21 Apr 09 - Paul Stanko of NOAA writes meteorologist Anthony Watts to tell him of an interesting development in his tracking of the International Sunspot Number (ISN).

Paul writes:

My running mean of the International Sunspot Number for 2009 just dipped below 1.00. For anything comparable you now need to go back before 1913 (which scored a 1.43) which could mean we're now competing directly with the Dalton Minimum. Just in case you'd like another tidbit, here is something that puts our 20 to 30 day spotless runs in perspective… the mother of all spotless runs (in the heart of the Maunder Minimum, of course!) was from October 15, 1661 to August 2, 1671. It totaled 3579 consecutive spotless days, all of which had obs. To say that that we in interesting times is a huge understatement. We are about to enter a Grand Minimum, which in the past have produced a cooler planet, while our government is preparing for run-away global warming. Who could have predicted this stupidity?


Is a new Dalton Minimum approaching?

Russ Steele

Well 2008 arrived last night and Sunspot Cycle 24 was absent. While we had a flurry of excitement a few week ago when a patch of reverse polarity showed on the Suns surface it soon faded. The Sun reverses polarity with each cycle change. As we have discussed in the past the length of the roughly 11-year sunspot cycle is correlated with temperature and a late arriving cycle can have some long term climate implications for us folks here on Earth. The Cycle 23 solar minimum was at 1996.5, so with an average 11 year cycle we should have seen the new minimum in mid-2007. Here we are in 2008 and the next cycle is already six months late, and the defining minimum generally occurs 12-20 months after the first spot of the new cycle. This would indicate the ending minimum of Cycle 23 and the start of Cycle 24 will come in mid  2009, resulting in a 13 year cycle, the longest since 1784-1797. Interesting to note that this cycle started a long series - 13.6, 12.3, 12.7 years, which coincided with the cold period known as the Dalton Minimum. Stay tuned, these are going to be interesting times. Sun cycles indicate cooling and the politicians are trying stop global warming. We may need a little extra warming over the next thirty years.

Thanks to David Archibald for this graphic showing the relationship of cycle length to temperature in New Hampshire.


Dalton Minimum

The Dalton minimum in the 400 year history of sunspot numbers The Dalton Minimum was a period of low solar activity, named for the English meteorologist John Dalton, lasting from about 1790 to 1830. Like the Maunder Minimum and Spörer Minimum, the Dalton Minimum coincided with a period of lower-than-average global temperatures. The Oberlach Station in Germany, for example, experienced a 2.0° C decline over 20 years. The Year Without a Summer, in 1816, also occurred during the Dalton Minimum.


21 posted on 12/09/2009 11:05:17 AM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
How sunspots were observed “back then”?

From NASA...


The Sunspot Cycle
(Updated 2009/12/08)

Sunspot Numbers

In 1610, shortly after viewing the sun with his new telescope, Galileo Galilei (or was it Thomas Harriot?) made the first European observations of Sunspots. Continuous daily observations were started at the Zurich Observatory in 1849 and earlier observations have been used to extend the records back to 1610. The sunspot number is calculated by first counting the number of sunspot groups and then the number of individual sunspots.

22 posted on 12/09/2009 11:05:38 AM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

Sunspot Activity at 8,000-Year High

By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 27 October 2004
12:58 pm ET

Sunspots have been more common in the past seven decades than at any time in the last 8,000 years, according to a new historic reconstruction of solar activity.

Many researchers have tried to link sunspot activity to climate change, but the new results cannot be used to explain global warming, according to the scientists who did the study.

Sunspots are areas of intense magnetic energy. They act like temporary caps on upwelling matter, and they are the sites of occasional ferocious eruptions of light and electrified gas. More sunspots generally means increased solar activity.

Sunspots have been studied directly for about four centuries, and these direct observations provide the most reliable historic record of solar activity. Previous studies have suggested cooler periods on Earth were related to long stretches with low sunspot counts. From the 1400s to the 1700s, for example, Europe and North America experienced a "Little Ice Age." For a period of about 50 years during that time, there were almost no sunspots.

But a firm connection between sunspot numbers and climate remains elusive, many scientists say.

Better record

The new study, led by Sami Solanki of the Max Planck Institute in Germany, employed a novel approach to pinning down sunspot activity going back 11,400 years:

Cosmic rays constantly bombard Earth's atmosphere. Chemical interactions create a fairly constant source of stuff called carbon-14, which falls to Earth and is absorbed and retained by trees. But charged particles hurled at Earth by active sunspots deflect cosmic rays. So when the Sun gets wild, trees record less carbon-14.

While trees don't typically live more than a few hundred years or perhaps a couple thousand, dead and buried trees, if preserved, carry a longer record, "as long as tree rings can be identified," said Manfred Schuessler, another Max Planck Institute researcher who worked on the study.

The study's finding: Sunspot activity has been more intense and lasted longer during the past 60 to 70 years than at anytime in more than eight millennia.

Sunspot activity is known to ebb and flow in two cycles lasting 11 and 88 years (activity is currently headed toward a short-term minimum). Astronomers think that longer cycles -- or at least long-term variations -- also occur. Scientists in other fields have shown that during the past 11,000 years, Earth's climate has had many dramatic shifts.

"Whether solar activity is a dominant influence in these [climate] changes is a subject of intense debate," says Paula Reimer, a researcher at Queen's University Belfast who wrote an analysis of the new study for Nature. Why? Because "the exact relationship of solar irradiance to sunspot number is still uncertain."

In general, studies indicate changes in solar output affect climate during periods lasting decades or centuries, "but this interpretation is controversial because it is not based on any understanding of the relevant physical processes," study member Schuessler told SPACE.com. Translation: Scientists have a lot to learn about the Sun-Earth connection.

Better understanding

The study's methods appear solid: "The models reproduce the observed record of sunspots extremely well, from almost no sunspots during the seventeenth century to the current high levels," Reimer said.

The research could eventually help scientists understand why the climate has changed in the past and allow for better predictions of future change.

"The reconstructed sunspot number will nonetheless provide a much-needed record of solar activity," Reimer said. "This can then be compared with palaeoclimate data sets to test theories of possible solar-climate connections, as well as enabling physicists to model long-term solar variability."

Whatever the result, change is likely to continue.

Solanki's team calculates that, based on history, the chances of sunspot activity remaining at the currently high levels for another 50 years is 8 percent. Odds are just 1 percent the solar exuberance will last through the end of this century.

23 posted on 12/09/2009 11:06:18 AM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
It’s one thing to gripe and complain about these things and disagree with it, but it’s quite another to convince your friends and neighbors and relatives and coworkers...

THEREFORE..., it’s also absolutely necessary for people to know the information in the following documentary. If there were simply one video that you could see and/or show people you know... this would be the one...


The following is an excellent video documentary on the so-called “Global Warming” I would recommend it to all FReepers. It’s a very well-made documentary.

“The Great Global Warming Swindle”

If you want to download it, via a BitTorrent site (using a BitTorrent client), you can get it at the following link. Information about BitTorrent protocol and BitTorrent clients and their comparison at these three links (in this sentence). Some additional BitTorrent information here and here.

Download it here...
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3635222/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle
[This is a high-quality copy, of about a gigabyte in size. This link is the information about it, and you have to click the download link to get it on your BitTorrent client software. You'll also find users' comments here, too.]

It’s worth seeing and having for relatives, friends, neighbors and coworkers to see.

Also, see it online here...
http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/great_global_warming_swindle.php
[this one is considerably lower quality, is a flash video and viewable online, of course..., and also, you can download flash video on a website either yourself or some software doing it.]

Buy it on DVD here...
[this would be the very highest quality version, on a DVD disk, of several gigabytes in size...] At Amazon, it seems to be high-priced now and have only a few copies right now.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WLUXZE

At WAGtv (a UK shop), but don't know about shipping. The price is reasonable, though.
https://www.wagtv.com/product/The-Great-Global-Warming-Swindle-322.html
[And..., some information from WAGtv about this item.]


Also, in split parts on YouTube...

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 1 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 2 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5rGpDMN8lw

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 3 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzFL6Ixe_bo

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 4 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNQy2rT_dvU

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 5 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dzIMXGI6k8

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 6 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GjOgQN1Jco

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 7 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHI2GfbfrYw

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Part 8 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N9benJh3Lw

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Credits (Part 9 of 9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_1ifP-ri58

24 posted on 12/09/2009 11:06:35 AM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

What about regulating the idiots that are talking on Capitol Hill...oh yeah that is exactly what this is doing...they can just bypass them!

But I would be in favor in an EPA regulation on what is said on Capitol Hill...especially the legislation that is being passed that should be more closely classified as a WMD.


25 posted on 12/09/2009 11:13:57 AM PST by surfer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative
The EPA is ignoring the fact that the earth's temperature stopped rising ten years ago and climate scientists don't understand why that happened:

Climatologists Baffled by Global Warming Time-Out

My view is that temperatures have stopped rising because they have nothing to do with CO2 levels and the entire theory of global warming is a hoax. It makes no sense scientifically that the earth can release enough of the solar energy absorbed by the atmosphere, land, and oceans so that temperatures stay steady for decades, but then a tiny amount of CO2 (relative to the mass of the atmosphere, oceans, and earth's surface) is somehow able to throw this stable system way out of balance and cause serious warming. That makes no sense whatsoever and the climate "scientists" need to go back to their theory and models and rethink the whole thing because they never gave this theory enough thought and never did enough research into it before hundreds of these clowns jumped on the GW bandwagon, for recognition and profit.

2012 can't get here fast enough, when we can get read of this dreadful foolish administration and its idiotic bureaucrats. You climate "scientists" who are pushing this theory so irresponsibly, you need to go back to your offices and reexamine all of your scientific assumptions and equations and find the ones that are wrong. Any expert statistician can disprove GW theory just by analyzing the history of the temperature record and CO2 levels. This history shows that CO2 levels are influenced by temperature and not the other way around.

26 posted on 12/09/2009 11:21:18 AM PST by your local physicist (If the Canadians and Brazilians can drill for oil off their Atlantic coast, why can't we?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: your local physicist
Let me give some assistance to "climate scientists" as they analyze why the earth has stopped warming. Here's an article about research by some top Hungarian scientists who are on the right track:

Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

27 posted on 12/09/2009 11:29:57 AM PST by your local physicist (If the Canadians and Brazilians can drill for oil off their Atlantic coast, why can't we?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

Thread on Mag Flux Weakening to the point where Sun Spots may be history.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2400331/posts


28 posted on 12/09/2009 12:32:23 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

We must increase the rate of the lies lest our fascism be stopped.


29 posted on 12/09/2009 12:36:19 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

Thread on Mag Flux Weakening to the point where Sun Spots may be history.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2400331/posts

I saw that thread earlier and it was interesting. I'm not sure about them not coming back though. I think "cycles" are much more likely as we're all familiar with all sorts of cycles in nature. This idea of this not being a cycle but a minimum that we can't recover from ... I don't know about that one... :-)

30 posted on 12/09/2009 12:42:51 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: dila813
No sunspots today... :-)


31 posted on 12/09/2009 12:52:31 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Paul Pierett

It would seem like the effect of no sunspots would be instantaneous and marked. Is it a situation that the lack of sunspots is a marker of lower solar output in general and not a primary causation in itself?


32 posted on 12/09/2009 1:00:51 PM PST by ichabod1 ( I am rolling over in my grave and I am not even dead yet.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: ichabod1
You were saying ...

It would seem like the effect of no sunspots would be instantaneous and marked. Is it a situation that the lack of sunspots is a marker of lower solar output in general and not a primary causation in itself?

The idea presented and it seems to have some good scientific backing -- is that there are a string of events that end up causing global warming or cooling from the sun. It's not an actual warming or cooling of the sun itself -- as in directly causing that on the earth -- but a longer sequence of events.

The sunspots have an effect on the solar winds. The solar winds have an effect on cosmic rays reaching the earth. And the cosmic rays have an effect on cloud formation. And then, the clouds have an effect on how much of the sun's rays actually reach the earth's surface and warm it up.

That's the sequence of events...

33 posted on 12/09/2009 1:07:42 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

Obama wants to prosecute CIA and Bush Justice Dept. officials for anti-constitutional crimes.

Its a fine precedent, as far as I am concerned. in 2012 we can prosecute EPA officials for their attempts to grab-power and become a 4th branch of Gov’t.


34 posted on 12/09/2009 2:24:17 PM PST by PGR88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

Everyone misses the point of this story.

You have to have a field strength of 1500 to have sun spots, below that it can’t form.

Regardless of where we were in the cycle, it has been going down steadily.

It is possible it is an unknown cycle, but it isn’t tied to the sun spot cycle itself.

This is new. It could indicate a new ice age is starting.


35 posted on 12/09/2009 3:46:18 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

It is possible it is an unknown cycle, but it isn’t tied to the sun spot cycle itself.

I didn't miss that. I did get it, but I'm saying that what we've seen that has affected the climate in the past has always been an up-and-down thing or a cycle of some kind. So, no matter whether we know about it now, knew about it in the past, or will know about it in the future -- the fact of the matter is that there have been countless unending cycles...


You have to have a field strength of 1500 to have sun spots, below that it can’t form.

Well, even if we were to accept that as true, it doesn't mean there isn't a cycle there either and that we would end up "cycling right out of it" once again.

But, I really don't know that this assertion is even true, even if someone (or several) think it's true.


This is new. It could indicate a new ice age is starting.

Well, that prospect was a possibility even before this was known. I don't know if this particular item has anything to do with it, though...

36 posted on 12/09/2009 4:30:05 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

Ok, you get it then we can be at solar max without any sun spots then?


37 posted on 12/09/2009 7:40:43 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

Ok, you get it then we can be at solar max without any sun spots then?

Here's the thing... all that I'm interested in, in regards to this -- is the relationship to the sequence of events that causes the earth to warm up and cool down.

Now, that turns out to be sunspots, solar winds, cosmic rays and clouds... (in that sequence).

Thus, all that would matter is how strong or weak the solar winds are, in terms of the earth warming up or cooling down.

Any other thing going on with the sun would be a completely different matter and unrelated matter.

BUT, having said all this, I would have no worry about the situation, because the earth is going to be around for quite a long time from now, with a bunch of human beings still living on it, and in a civilization that they have, as they've had before in the past. That part is not going to change...

38 posted on 12/09/2009 8:02:29 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: dila813; All
I should emphasize this again, because this is the sequence of events for all global warming and global cooling -- which is a normal and natural thing (i.e., "climate change").

It's the "Anthropogenic Global Warming" scenario that is false and is composed of "science gone crazy" ... LOL...

The sequence is...

sunspots --> solar winds --> cosmic rays --> cloud formation

39 posted on 12/09/2009 8:20:34 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

If there aren’t any sun spots then the solar wind is decreased,

I don’t think you get the article.

It is kind of like Fire, you need fuel, heat, oxygen to get to ignition.

This article is saying you basically have fuel and oxygen without the heat.

The magnetic waves pinch the plasma causing the heat that results in the sun spots.

So, you have solar max without sun spots and without the increased solar winds.

That is the reason I asked, everyone reading this is getting the magnetic flux confused with the sun spot cycle. Two totally separate things except that sun spots depend on the magnetic flux strength.


40 posted on 12/09/2009 8:23:49 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

And what I am saying is this article is talking about magnetic flux that if not strong enough will prevent the formation of sun spots and this is totally independent of the solar cycle.


41 posted on 12/09/2009 8:25:37 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

If there aren’t any sun spots then the solar wind is decreased,

I don’t think you get the article.

I'm not sure how to say this to you any more than I've already said. I think I've made it clear that sunspots are related to the solar wind. They increase and decrease according to these sunspots, but the solar wind doesn't go away, in any case. It may be reduced as a result of the absence of sunspots.

What I'm saying is that the variance in the temperature, globally, really has to do with the cosmic rays and cloud formation.

And again, I believe I "get the article" very well.

I think the part you don't "get" -- however, is summed up in the following from that aricle...

Penn himself wonders about these points. "Our technique is relatively new and the data stretches back in time only 17 years. We could be observing a temporary downturn that will reverse itself."

That's why I say that all these kinds of things in nature go in cycles. Just because we're observing something going one way now, doesn't mean that the cycle doesn't go back the other way.

So, I don't see a problem with the information and data as presented in that article. It's just an interesting piece of information and I'm sure they will do more studies on it over the coming years.

Heck! Since we've talked about this article is so many posts now, I might as well include it here... see the next post...

42 posted on 12/09/2009 9:10:41 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: dila813

Are Sunspots Disappearing?

September 3, 2009: The sun is in the pits of the deepest solar minimum in nearly a century. Weeks and sometimes whole months go by without even a single tiny sunspot. The quiet has dragged out for more than two years, prompting some observers to wonder, are sunspots disappearing?

"Personally, I'm betting that sunspots are coming back," says researcher Matt Penn of the National Solar Observatory (NSO) in Tucson, Arizona. But, he allows, "there is some evidence that they won't."

Penn's colleague Bill Livingston of the NSO has been measuring the magnetic fields of sunspots for the past 17 years, and he has found a remarkable trend. Sunspot magnetism is on the decline:

Above: Sunspot magnetic fields measured by Livingston and Penn
from 1992 - Feb. 2009 using an infrared Zeeman splitting technique. [more]

"Sunspot magnetic fields are dropping by about 50 gauss per year," says Penn. "If we extrapolate this trend into the future, sunspots could completely vanish around the year 2015."

This disappearing act is possible because sunspots are made of magnetism. The "firmament" of a sunspot is not matter but rather a strong magnetic field that appears dark because it blocks the upflow of heat from the sun's interior. If Earth lost its magnetic field, the solid planet would remain intact, but if a sunspot loses its magnetism, it ceases to exist.

"According to our measurements, sunspots seem to form only if the magnetic field is stronger than about 1500 gauss," says Livingston. "If the current trend continues, we'll hit that threshold in the near future, and solar magnetic fields would become too weak to form sunspots."

"This work has caused a sensation in the field of solar physics," comments NASA sunspot expert David Hathaway, who is not directly involved in the research. "It's controversial stuff."

The controversy is not about the data. "We know Livingston and Penn are excellent observers," says Hathaway. "The trend that they have discovered appears to be real." The part colleagues have trouble believing is the extrapolation. Hathaway notes that most of their data were taken after the maximum of Solar Cycle 23 (2000-2002) when sunspot activity naturally began to decline. "The drop in magnetic fields could be a normal aspect of the solar cycle and not a sign that sunspots are permanently vanishing."

Penn himself wonders about these points. "Our technique is relatively new and the data stretches back in time only 17 years. We could be observing a temporary downturn that will reverse itself."

The technique they're using was pioneered by Livingston at the McMath-Pierce solar telescope near Tucson. He looks at a spectral line emitted by iron atoms in the sun's atmosphere. Sunspot magnetic fields cause the line to split in two—an effect called "Zeeman splitting" after Dutch physicist Pieter Zeeman who discovered the phenomenon in the 19th century. The size of the split reveals the intensity of the magnetism.

Above: Zeeman splitting of spectral lines from a strongly-magnetized
sunspot. [more]

Astronomers have been measuring sunspot magnetic fields in this general way for nearly a century, but Livingston added a twist. While most researchers measure the splitting of spectral lines in the visible part of the sun's spectrum, Livingston decided to try an infra-red spectral line. Infrared lines are much more sensitive to the Zeeman effect and provide more accurate answers. Also, he dedicated himself to measuring a large number of sunspots—more than 900 between 1998 and 2005 alone. The combination of accuracy and numbers revealed the downturn.

If sunspots do go away, it wouldn't be the first time. In the 17th century, the sun plunged into a 70-year period of spotlessness known as the Maunder Minimum that still baffles scientists. The sunspot drought began in 1645 and lasted until 1715; during that time, some of the best astronomers in history (e.g., Cassini) monitored the sun and failed to count more than a few dozen sunspots per year, compared to the usual thousands.

"Whether [the current downturn] is an omen of long-term sunspot decline, analogous to the Maunder Minimum, remains to be seen," Livingston and Penn caution in a recent issue of EOS. "Other indications of solar activity suggest that sunspots must return in earnest within the next year."

Whatever happens, notes Hathaway, "the sun is behaving in an interesting way and I believe we're about to learn something new."

Author: Dr. Tony Phillips | Credit: Science@NASA

43 posted on 12/09/2009 9:11:27 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: UAConservative

A shame that she will most likely escape the Mussolini like fate she so richly deserves.


44 posted on 12/09/2009 9:13:20 PM PST by Rome2000 (OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST CRYPTO-MUSLIM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

I think you are getting 98% of this.

The last 2% is that the mag flux is acting as a catalyst for sun spots.

It is like you are starving a fire of it’s oxygen.

We may be seeing an extended absence of sun spots, we can see that they are trying to form, but they can’t.

The mag flux is too weak.

Since we don’t have any long term measurements of mag flux like the sun spot records, there is even a chance that we may be sending the end of sun spots.

Flash forward 20 years, a father talks to his son and says when I was little we still had sun spots. In other words, they may be history.


45 posted on 12/09/2009 9:18:42 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

The mag flux is too weak.

I think this is a speculative connection... I don't see it as something that enough is known about.


We may be seeing an extended absence of sun spots, we can see that they are trying to form, but they can’t.

We've seen, in our recorded history, a longer and more extended absence of sunspots than what we see now.

As to what they are "trying" to do and what they "can and cannot do" -- that's speculative, too.


Flash forward 20 years, a father talks to his son and says when I was little we still had sun spots. In other words, they may be history.

Again, this is more speculation. There is way too much guesswork to say one way or another. Furthermore, since we've seen more severe and a much more extended time of no sunspots in our recorded history, I would say that we're far, far from being able to even "speculate" down that pathway (based on our own historical record).

46 posted on 12/09/2009 9:32:56 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

There is a lot of speculation in here, but what isn’t speculation is the requirement for a min mag flux threshold.

As far as when this will end etc.. pure speculation.

But the mag flux will need to increase for sun spots to return.


47 posted on 12/09/2009 11:06:41 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: dila813

I guess we’ll see... :-)


48 posted on 12/09/2009 11:08:06 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Star Traveler

That is the exciting part, we just have to see what happens.

Very interesting once you understand what they are talking about.

This could be the perverbable rug pulled out from under not only AGW but GW in general.

We may turn into an ice cube.

My may point with the climate research, they isolate their research to remove other variation from their analysis. They aren’t looking at other factors causing a forcing that is outside the noise in the data.

They get surprised and this is why their research is a hoax, they have the blinders on.


49 posted on 12/09/2009 11:12:56 PM PST by dila813
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: dila813
You were saying ...

We may turn into an ice cube.

That may have been a reason (or the reason or one of the reasons) that the earth turned into an ice cube before. But, it came out of that state and we are where we are now.

For all I know, this sort of thing with the sunspot magnetic fields could have been going on for a long time. It could have been part of the reason for the Maunder Minimum and may have been part of the reason for the last ice age.

The thing is, I don't know if it had any part in those events, but we do know that those events happened in the past and we came out of them, as we are here now.

So, as I said, it's way too speculative to attach some kind of significance and/or connection of these sunspot magnetic fields to what is going on now and say that we are going to "drop off a cliff" or something like that.

We just don't know -- but the earth continues "being here" nonetheless, regardless of how much we know or don't know... :-)

50 posted on 12/09/2009 11:22:52 PM PST by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson