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Measure to legalize marijuana will be on California's November ballot (Dude)
Los Angeles Times ^ | March 24, 2010

Posted on 03/25/2010 3:21:41 PM PDT by Zakeet

Supporters of the initiative collected well more than the 433,971 signatures needed for it to go before voters in the fall, again putting the state at the forefront of the nation's drug debate.

An initiative to legalize marijuana and allow it to be sold and taxed will appear on the November ballot, state election officials announced Wednesday, triggering what will probably be a much-watched campaign that once again puts California on the forefront of the nation's debate over whether to soften drug laws.

[Snip]

With polls showing that a slim majority of voters support legalization, the legalization campaign will be trying to appeal to a slice of undecided voters who are mostly mothers. "It's always easier for people to say no than to say yes for an initiative," said Mark Baldassare, the pollster for the Public Policy Institute of California.

[Oakland marijuana entrepreneur] Lee hopes to raise as much as $20 million. He will probably be able to tap a handful of wealthy advocates who have supported efforts to relax drug laws, including multibillionaire investor George Soros and George Zimmer, founder of the Men's Wearhouse. Zimmer has donated at least $20,000.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: 2010election; ballotinitiative; bongbrigade; ca2010; california; marijuana; potheads; weed
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To: ajay_kumar

OK, so what is the 5000 year history you refer to?


161 posted on 03/26/2010 9:23:49 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Nate505

“Show me the studies that validate the gateway theory.”

Ok but why? They are very easy to find. It took me one minute.

“A major focus for concern has been the extent to which marijuana use leads to the use of and dependence on “hard” drugs. There has been a longstanding debate over whether this association is due to the criminalization of marijuana use, forcing the user to seek suppliers who deal in other illicit drugs, or whether marijuana conditions the user to try other drugs.

(To facilitate the ease of reading, understanding, and flow, this following statement was also copied to here, but because it is also referring to the study below, I left it there, as well.) Since marijuana is legal and widely available in the Netherlands, the findings from both studies, clearly indicate that marijuana serves as a gateway for use and abuse of other addictive drugs in adolescents whose central nervous system is still not fully developed.

A study was reported from Australia of a volunteer sample of 311 young, adult, monozygotic and dizygotic, same sex twins discordant for early cannabis use i.e. less than 17 years [ 1 ]. The outcome measures included subsequent non-medical use of prescription sedatives, hallucinogens, cocaine or other stimulants, and opiates leading to abuse or dependence on these drugs. Abuse and/or dependence on cannabis or alcohol were also outcome measures. Twins who used cannabis by age 17 had odds of other drug use or alcohol dependence plus drug abuse from two to five times higher than those of their discordant twin. These associations did not differ between monozygotic and dizygotic twins. The findings indicate that early use of cannabis is associated with increased risks of progression to other illicit drug use. Since the subjects were twins neither genetic nor environmental factors were likely to have produced the results. However, since marijuana use is illegal in Australia the study was unable to establish whether having to obtain the drug from dealers involved with other illegal drugs exposes the marijuana user to other illicit drugs.

A similar study was conducted in the Netherlands, where out of a group of 6000 twins, 219 same sex pairs were chosen, one of whom had begun using marijuana before age 18 while the other twin had not [ 3 ].

1 ] Lynsky MT, Heath AC, Bucholz KK, et al. Escalation of drug use in early-onset cannabis users vs. co-twin controls. JAMA 2003; 289: 427-433

3 ] Lynsky MT, Vink JM, Boomsa DI Early onset cannabis use and progression to. other drug use in a sample of Dutch twins. Behav Genet 2006; 36: 195-200


162 posted on 03/26/2010 9:27:40 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Persevero
Public drunkenness is already against the law; operating heavy machinery and doing various responsible tasks (parenting, surgery, driving, air traffic control. . .) while drunk is against the law; supplying alcohol to minors is against the law.

So there is already quite a bit of "nanny state" intervention as you term it.

No, I do NOT term the above as "nanny state interventions". They are laws concerning public behavior that endangers or interferes with other individuals, not someone's mental capacity.

You said you supported government intervention for those who are "deliberately destroying their mental capacity". I ask again, what interventions do you propose for the hundreds of thousands of alcoholics who are doing just that?

163 posted on 03/26/2010 9:44:05 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Persevero
The US has a much higher rate of heroin addiction than the Netherlands. The Netherlands had 25,000¹ heroin addicts in 2000. With a population of 16M, it works out to a rate of ~0.16%. The US had 980,000 heroin addicts² in 2000. With a population of 280M, that's an addiction rate of ~0.35%, or more than TWICE that of the Netherlands!

______________________________________

¹"In the Netherlands the total number of heroin addicts amounts to approximately 25,000."

http://opioids.com/heroin/holland.html

²"For example, numbers like heroin addiction. You can find numbers that go from 255,000 up to the one I'm currently using, 980,000, if I remember the last time we updated it, and those are all valid scientific studies."

--Drug Czar Barry McCaffrey, Oct 4, 2000

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/symposium/panelmccaffrey.html

164 posted on 03/26/2010 10:11:01 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H

Like I said, you can find what appear to be reputable studies to support both sides of the issue. That’s why I side with the ones that match my personal observations.


165 posted on 03/26/2010 10:50:05 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Ken H

I think I could support a law that criminalizes the consumption of alcohol by physically determined alcoholics.

There is a hotel in where is it? Washington state? Which “treats” alcoholics by supplying them with alcohol. I think that should be illegal, too.


166 posted on 03/26/2010 10:51:33 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Ken H

“They are laws concerning public behavior that endangers or interferes with other individuals, not someone’s mental capacity. “

The problem is, unless we are trust fund babies with a huge personal infrastructure in place -

we are all going out in public.

Working. Having kids. Being in places of responsibility. Voting. Crossing the street. Entering relationships. Setting examples. Transacting business.

In the Libertarian mindset, every man sits upon his island, affecting pretty much nobody. It is a lie.


167 posted on 03/26/2010 10:53:26 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Persevero
None of these point out that pot is a gateway drug. They all point out that people who have used harder drugs have used pot before. Like I said, that is rather natural. Pot is a much more mild drug than a drug like heroin or cocaine, and it is natural that people would try something more mild than strong at the beginning. Heck, not with just drugs but just about anything. Most people don't cannonball into a hot tub. They ease their way into it to adjust to the temperature. Most people don't turn the volume up on their stereo all the way. They adjust to the volume and then increase it as needed.

Considering that there are 15 or so million past month pot smokers and 2-3 or so million past cocaine users (which is the next most used illicit drug after pot) the simple math blows the gateway theory out of the water. If the gateway theory meant anything, there should be way more than that.

168 posted on 03/27/2010 12:27:37 AM PDT by Nate505
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To: Persevero
I can’t believe you are trying to convince me that pot is benign and those who use alcohol are messed up

The vast majority of my friends/acquaintances use alcohol. The vast majority are sane, productive, rational. I do know a couple of what I consider to be functioning alcoholics.

A plurality of my former (liberal) friends used marijuana. A majority of them went on to harder drugs, had mild to serious mental issues, and were less and less productive until they became just about inert. Except for the few that quit.

I wouldn't claim any drug is benign or completely harmful. People are benign or harmful. That being said, the majority of people I know that imbibe in hard alcohol have major problems, while the majority of pot users I know are responsible productive citizens. So I guess my anecdotal evidence cancels out yours.

169 posted on 03/27/2010 12:29:42 AM PDT by Nate505
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To: Persevero

Alcoholics need alcohol to dry out with. Alcoholics can actually die if they withdraw without it.


170 posted on 03/27/2010 12:31:17 AM PDT by Nate505
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To: Persevero
I think I could support a law that criminalizes the consumption of alcohol by physically determined alcoholics.

By "physically determined alcoholics" do you mean alcoholics sitting in their own homes deliberately destroying their mental capacity, thus interering with a decent society? Is that the behavior you want criminalized?

171 posted on 03/27/2010 12:47:53 AM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H
interering = interfering
172 posted on 03/27/2010 12:49:43 AM PDT by Ken H
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To: Persevero
We all have probably known regular pot smokers. They are, as a general group, not doing well mentally.

Given the chance I guess you won't be voting for Sarah Palin then? She grew up in the grow capital of Alaska and probably didn't smoke just a little. I am a little disappointed in famous potheads like Sarah and Arnold when they cave in to conservatives. They had no issue with pot until they ran for office.

173 posted on 03/27/2010 1:46:21 PM PDT by IDFbunny
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To: IDFbunny

You are assuming Sarah Palin smoked pot. I think she should be allowed to speak for herself, huh? Is it fair to call someone a pothead just because they grew up in Alaska?

If she did in the past, but quit, I have no problem with it.


174 posted on 03/27/2010 6:49:47 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Ken H

Yes, I believe that suicide should be legally discouraged, although if successful, it’s obviously not punishable. It is self murder. Exceptions of course, like sacrificing oneself to save another, like killing a criminal to save another, same idea.

That alcoholic sitting in his house destroying his own mental capacity, that you describe, how did he get that alcohol? Does he work a job? Or is he on welfare? Or is he a lucky trust fund alky?

Even in this case, how does he cash his check? Does he have lackey go get his money and spend it for him, or does he go out on the roads? Oh, he lives within walking distance of his bank and liquor store, does he? Is that his barf you are slipping on? Is that his pee you smell? And allow me to note few of us are within walking distance of these places. I guarantee you he is on the roads. Hope he has a chauffeur!

Is that your harmless alcoholic threatening people who walk by? Passing out on the sidewalk for you to enjoy? Is that him exposing himself? Is that him in his DTs, shooting at the neighborhood road signs, thinking he sees bugs?

Where are his kids? Who is taking care of his aged parents? Is he paying his bills?

Did he leave something on the stove? Oh great, now the house is on fire. Has he mowed his grass lately? There goes the neighborhood.

How’s he doing at the job? Hope it has NO level of responsibility WHATSOEVER.

No one just sits in his rooom and drinks himself to death without every interacting with anyone or shirking a great deal of legitimate responsibility. Of course every alcoholic does not do all of the above. But it’s all part of the package, because we don’t all live on individual islands.

Drunk, stoned, tweaking, on acid - no, it should be illegal to do that to yourself. Cause when you do it to yourself, we are all paying a price at one point or another. Regardless of libertarian utopian fantasies.


175 posted on 03/27/2010 7:05:55 PM PDT by Persevero (Ask yourself: "What does the Left want me to do?" Then go do the opposite.)
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To: Persevero
She said she smoked and inhaled. As governor she dropped her predecessors efforts in trying to re-criminalize it.
176 posted on 03/28/2010 12:54:58 AM PDT by IDFbunny
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To: Nate505
while the majority of pot users I know are responsible productive citizens.

And, I have no doubt a lot of them and smoke pot with them. Isn't that the reason you want to legalize marijuana?

Anyone with brain should realize we have enough legal ways to get intoxicated and don't need to lose any more lives by legalizing new ways for citizens to become high. Marijuana legalization diminishes the quality of life for all and that is why it has been disaster in nations and states that have done so.

177 posted on 03/31/2010 8:06:23 PM PDT by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: Ol' Sparky
And, I have no doubt a lot of them and smoke pot with them.

Damn straight!

178 posted on 03/31/2010 11:05:47 PM PDT by Nate505
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To: Zakeet

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude!


179 posted on 03/31/2010 11:08:09 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: Ol' Sparky
Please, tell me the states and nations where it has been a "disaster."

Holland is one of the more successful states in the nation. Alaska isn't exactly a poor place like many southern states that practice prohibition in some counties.

180 posted on 03/31/2010 11:09:02 PM PDT by Nate505
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