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Is Islam a pagan religion or ideology covered by a vaneer of monotheism?
Asia Times Online ^ | 24 August 2010 | The Complete Spengler

Posted on 08/24/2010 6:55:58 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost

In a review of the book "The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created the Modern Islamist Crisis" by Robert R Reilly , Spengler raises some excellent theological questions about why Islam is a cultural wasteland.

Mainstream Islam rejected Greek-derived philosophy at the turn of the 12th century, when Abu Hamid al-Ghazali established a theology of divine caprice. In the normative Muslim view of things, Allah personally and immediately directs the motion of every molecule by his ineffable and incomprehensible will, according to the al-Ghazali synthesis, directly and without the mediation of natural law. Al-Ghazali abolished intermediate causes, that is, laws of nature, leaving great and small events to the caprice of the absolute tyrant of the universe.

In place of Hellenistic reasoning, Islam turned to a literal reading of the Koran. Robert Reilly recounts Islam's abandonment of Hellenistic reason, and blames it for the subsequent decline of Muslim civilization and the rise of radical Islam.

Reilly argues that Western civilization, is founded on reason, whereas normative Islam embraces irrationality.

(Excerpt) Read more at atimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: culture; groundzeromosque; ideology; islam; military; muslims; obama; theology
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After reading the book review op-ed written by Spengler I sent a sample to SULTAN KNISH for his opinion. His opinion: Spengler and Reilly both focus on theology, when the problem is somewhat more basic. Islam is more ideology than religion, it served as a way to try and unify regional families and clans under one banner. This is really the part of the article that matters.

"There is no Islamic society in the Western sense of the society, only nested layers of blood loyalty. Three-fifths of Iraqi (and two-thirds of Saudi Arabian) marriages are between cousins, for the object of the institution of marriage is to maintain the political integrity of the clan."

"...Islam is a layer on top of that. It's made up of stolen bits and pieces of Judaism, Christianity and the pagan religions is absorbed and destroyed. But none of those really matter. Islam is not a religion, so much as a common flag for quarreling tribes and a social system to maintain conformity..."

Is more in line with mine, in that Islam is an ideology not theology nor religion.

1 posted on 08/24/2010 6:56:01 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
Islam is a fascist political system under the guise of a religious cult.
2 posted on 08/24/2010 6:59:49 PM PDT by Apercu ("A man's character is hs fate" - Heraclitus)
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To: Apercu

I agree an ideology that has more in common with Nazism or Marxism.


3 posted on 08/24/2010 7:01:07 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

it’s a totalitarian ideology disguised as religion! It is the anti freedom!!


4 posted on 08/24/2010 7:01:22 PM PDT by timetostand (Ya say ya wanna revolution -- OK!)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

it is no way a religion, it’s a theocrcay looking to impose hiw laws and views onto the west and this country.

Just a shame that those I can’t think for myself far left kooks cannot understand this


5 posted on 08/24/2010 7:04:30 PM PDT by manc (WILL OBAMA EVER GO TO CHURCH ON A SUNDAY OR WILL HE LET THE MEDIA/LEFT BE FOOLED FOR EVER)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

it is no way a religion, it’s a theocracy looking to impose it’s laws and views onto the west and this country.

Just a shame that those I can’t think for myself far left kooks cannot understand this.


6 posted on 08/24/2010 7:05:30 PM PDT by manc (WILL OBAMA EVER GO TO CHURCH ON A SUNDAY OR WILL HE LET THE MEDIA/LEFT BE FOOLED FOR EVER)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Does a bear obama in the woods?


7 posted on 08/24/2010 7:05:33 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: timetostand

Save


8 posted on 08/24/2010 7:06:41 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Islam is a false religion that embraces a false political ideology.


9 posted on 08/24/2010 7:07:26 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: beethovenfan

its a seventh century Borg


10 posted on 08/24/2010 7:07:57 PM PDT by spokeshave (Mr. President, no golfball exploded because of your amazing power and strength - you hit a duck egg,)
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To: Apercu

You nailed it. It is a political/military adventure disguised as a religion. “Moderate Muslims are an essential part of the structure” in undermining Islam’s enemies (everybody). We have bought it pretty much. We are ripe for the taking, but Europe goes first into the tank.


11 posted on 08/24/2010 7:09:15 PM PDT by Goreknowshowtocheat
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To: Apercu
Islam is a fascist political system under the guise of a religious cult.

Right on. I use to wonder why our political class could not see this. Now I realize they can, they just are to cowardly to confront and/or seek to collaborate.

12 posted on 08/24/2010 7:09:25 PM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know .F Trp 8th Cav)
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To: manc

An ideology yes. A theocracy no.

Theocracy-the rule of a state by g_d.

Ideology- the body of ideas upon which a particular political, economical or social system are based.


13 posted on 08/24/2010 7:09:54 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
"...Islam is a layer on top of that. It's made up of stolen bits and pieces of Judaism, Christianity and the pagan religions is absorbed and destroyed. But none of those really matter. Islam is not a religion, so much as a common flag for quarreling tribes and a social system to maintain conformity

This is a very important point. Islam was a syncretist cult basically developed (in bits and pieces) to smooth the acceptance of domination by Mohammed's tribe. While the 12th century may have been decisive in solidifying and affirming Islam's anti-rational nature, it never had a solid basis that could be reasonably defended in the first place, nor did it have a reasonable way of looking at the world.

14 posted on 08/24/2010 7:12:12 PM PDT by livius
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To: beethovenfan

15 posted on 08/24/2010 7:12:15 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Mohammed got tired of hearing the religious debates on his travels throughout the middle-east. It gave him fits! He knew he didn’t like the pantheon of gods in the great temple at Mecca so he smashed them all. Then he came up with a smashing good sales pitch to attract to himself army of adherents. Once achieved, he and his followers began an multi-century campaign to conquer the world.


16 posted on 08/24/2010 7:13:27 PM PDT by Oratam
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To: livius

And by discarding reason it never has been able to look at the world except from the desert tribal view. While the world passed them by in achievement and knowledge, Islam never moved forward.


17 posted on 08/24/2010 7:14:54 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

A theocracy is a state ruled by religious law and governed by the clergy, so yes, Islam is a theocratic system. The fact that it is a false religion is another matter.

Islam is a complete system that allows nothing to escape it. The religious law is the civil law, the economic law, and the social law, and ultimately, the mullahs rule. Of course, ultimately, rulership belongs to the “guardians of the holy places,” the Arabs (Mohammed’s tribe), which was exactly what Mohammed set out to do in the first place.


18 posted on 08/24/2010 7:16:59 PM PDT by livius
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Islam is not a pagan religion.


19 posted on 08/24/2010 7:17:32 PM PDT by Artemis Webb (DeMint 2012...Barbour2012....I would be happy either way.)
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To: timetostand
You are right. And in addition to being a totalitarian political ideology masquerading as a religion, in addition to being anti-American because it opposes a republican form of government and equal rights for all citizens regardless of sex as guaranteed by our Constitution, Islam is a CHRISTIAN HERESY.

It is a classic pagan adaptation of the precepts and theology of Christianity dumbed down to appeal to the ignorant desert people living on the fringe of the Christian world. Mohamed used the resentments and hatreds of these barbarian peoples to unify them and create a formidible military force that advanced this "religion" by the sword. Similar to the advance of communism in our own day.

20 posted on 08/24/2010 7:19:36 PM PDT by mick (Central Banker Capitalism is NOT Free Enterprise)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

A colleague who is a Jordanian Muslim described how the Arab society is still stuck in tribal thinking, which leads to the widespread corruption. He gave as an example the Mubarak family syndicate. He described Hosni Mubarak as the same as a Mafia don, and no Anwar Sadat.


21 posted on 08/24/2010 7:21:42 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (FUBO! I salute you with the soles of my shoes!)
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To: livius

But if Islam is not a religion, but an ideology, they are governed by ideological laws and ideoligical “clergy”. From my viewpoint if Islam can claim it is a religion, or theocracy, then so is/was Nazisim and Marxism.


22 posted on 08/24/2010 7:23:04 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: Artemis Webb

“Islam is not a pagan religion.”

is too....

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm


23 posted on 08/24/2010 7:28:33 PM PDT by Breto (never accept the premise)
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To: Fred Hayek

True, plus their incessant marrying of second cousins to “protect” the clan lineage.

The Saudis, Syrians, Kuwaitis and UAE are similar to the Mubaraks in that regard. Even Malaysia and Indonesia are, but with a large non-Muslim Chinese population it isn’t as pronounced there. In grad school I became very good friends with A Malaysian Chinese non-muslim couple who tried their best to stay in the states, because of the affirmative action/favoritism for muslims in Malaysia put them at a dis advantage. Plus they wanted American freedom.


24 posted on 08/24/2010 7:28:59 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: Breto
Quoting from the site you sent me:

"Although Islam is today a monotheist religion, its roots are in paganism."

If it is a monotheistic religion it is by definition not a pagan religion. It's roots don't matter. Christmas is a pagan holiday in it's roots but it's not in modern Christianity.

25 posted on 08/24/2010 7:33:56 PM PDT by Artemis Webb (DeMint 2012...Barbour2012....I would be happy either way.)
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To: Apercu
*GOOGLE*....

"Moon God"

26 posted on 08/24/2010 7:34:32 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Islam, like the worship of the “Saint of Death” by the Mexican Cartels, is Satanic, as evidenced by the Human, Blood Sacrifices.


27 posted on 08/24/2010 7:37:48 PM PDT by Ladycalif ("If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Jesus)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
Is more in line with mine, in that Islam is an ideology not theology nor religion Islam is a religion of tribal relations. Despite the Moslem's insistence on monotheism, the god that is worshipped is not the Judeo Christian one, but more a tribal chieftain. The roots of Islam are buried deep into warrior and clan soil and it is this kind of murderous barbarism that is exposed in the contemporary world as the Moslem seeks to claim victory. Islam seems like an ideology because all tribal societies are ideological and certainly political. The tribe and its blood relations are the basis for an economic and political strata that no longer is content to remain in the Arabian landscape. Filled with their own hubris, and pumped up by millions of dollars from oil, the Moslem is determined to conquer and believes it is his destiny. For anyone to not see this, they would have to be deceiving themselves. What we need is another Charlemagne to lead us.
28 posted on 08/24/2010 7:38:18 PM PDT by sueuprising
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To: Apercu

>>Islam is a fascist political system under the guise of a religious cult.<<

Mohammedism is a cult of hate, founded by a goat humping pedophile, that has not had an accomplishment of note in over 1,000 years.


29 posted on 08/24/2010 7:39:20 PM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: Ladycalif

Amen I second it!


30 posted on 08/24/2010 7:42:02 PM PDT by Biggirl (AZ Is DOING THE JOB The Feds Should Be Doing, ENFORCING The Southern Border! =^..^=)
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Your definitions align with my idea (probably not original...) that islam is a stone-age socio-economic system dressed up as religion.
With the emphasis on “stone-age.”

Arab science was stunning - 1000 years ago. Nothing much of consequence was accomplished in the Arab world after the advent of islam.


31 posted on 08/24/2010 7:43:10 PM PDT by Redbob (W.W.J.B.D.: "What Would Jack Bauer Do?")
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

All worldviews are based in theology. It is the root of all ideologies. The existence and nature of God are primary and foundational. With a skewed view of God, all other disciplines are skewed: philosophy, science, psychology, ethics, sociology, politics, law, economics, history.


32 posted on 08/24/2010 7:44:25 PM PDT by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Anything that promotes anything other than faith by grace in Christ’s finished work, is PAGAN by definition! (Including Islam).-and no I would not include Judism in that definition since (I could argue their OT prophecies spell out Jesus 100% to a T)!!-GOD DOESN’T CHANGE!!


33 posted on 08/24/2010 7:45:45 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: Oratam

I think Mohammed would have been dignosed with having ADHD.


34 posted on 08/24/2010 7:47:23 PM PDT by Biggirl (AZ Is DOING THE JOB The Feds Should Be Doing, ENFORCING The Southern Border! =^..^=)
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To: Redbob

35 posted on 08/24/2010 7:48:38 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: Breto

Which is why Zer0 dismantled NASA’s Moon program - and turned it into his moozlie outreach program.

I mean, we can’t go shooting rockets into his little god.


36 posted on 08/24/2010 7:50:19 PM PDT by rock_lobsta (November can't get here fast enough.)
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To: timetostand
The legal theories encompassed in Islam are mediated through Sharia Law ~ and every educate and rational Moslem scholar recognizes that these are the legal theories of the Ancient pre-Christian Eastern Roman Empire.

The theology is now known to arise out of a Christian missionary manual prepared in Damascus for the purpose of Christianizing the Arabs at Mecca. The written form of Arabic is certainly a derivative of Aramaic, widely spoken in the region right up to Mohammad's time.

The concept of the mosque, as a men's social center, is hardly new ~ but I suspect it was doable in Arabia no more recently than Mohammad's day ~ due to the almost total poverty of everybody in the region.

Many of the customs and ceremonies, e.g. invisible washing, 5 time a day prayers, and so on are certainly Arabian Peninsula inventions. The Kaaba was already on the scene.

The most advanced Christian scholarly thinking on the matter is that Mohammad was, at most, a local reformer of the then pagan religion and practices of the Arabs in Mecca and Medina. He sought "assistance" from outside sources ~ probably Coptic and Gnostic ~ and got it. Once he'd achieved a degree of success by beating the Meccans in battle, he sought to portray his local reforms as also necessary to Judaism.

There were actually many "tribes" and areas accessible on the trade routes passing through Mecca where the predominant religion was actually Judaism. The old Noble Arab families will tell you all about it ~ their families were, in fact, Jews. Then they converted.

By the time Islam got to Afghanistan even it's most brutal beliefs and practices were probably rather adavanced in the eyes of the people living there. Even today it would not be possible for your typical Taliban to imagine how Moslems in Cairo live and work.

37 posted on 08/24/2010 7:52:57 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
A theocracy is mediated by an organized religious authority. By now you've probably figured out the Sunni have no organized religious authority of any kind ~ just independent mullahs who issue fatwahs.

The Shi'ites have a religious hierarchy, but they are a small minority.

The various dictators are happy to leave all of this alone as long as the mullahs/imams keep everybody happy and murder the requisite number of trouble-makers.

To a substantial degree the absence of an organized religious hierarchy serves to keep the dictators in business.

38 posted on 08/24/2010 7:57:08 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Biggirl

In my opinion more like narcissistic personality disorder.


39 posted on 08/24/2010 7:59:33 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
Veneer.
40 posted on 08/24/2010 7:59:41 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: arthurus

keyboard


41 posted on 08/24/2010 8:03:15 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost
Al-Ghazali abolished intermediate causes, that is, laws of nature, leaving great and small events to the caprice of the absolute tyrant of the universe.

Mohammedanism is anti-rational and fatalistic, explaining why Mohammedans are impervious to Christian evangalism and apologetics --they reject rationality altogether. We share no common, non-religious language. Mohammedanism is a particularly diabolical cult in this respect.

How Mohammedans can make any truth claims at all is beyond me. If Allah is free to contradict himself, why should any Mohammedan adhere to the Koran, if Allah could choose to contradict the Koran tomorrow?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Mohammedanism poses a unique threat to our country --one which I suspect the Founders didn't consider, and that is, the existence in America of a religion that doesn't tolerate other religions.

On a theoretical level, can a State that tolerates all religions tolerate a religion that is violently intolerant of other religions? Logically, there can only be one answer to this question. So what becomes of the First Amendment?

The Founders made two mistakes with respect to the First Amendment. First, they should not have prohibited an established national church. If the US gov't was officially, Baptist, Catholic, or Lutheran, the gov't could logically restrict immigration from Muslim countries.

Secondly, the Founders should have allowed for the suppression of violently intolerant religions.

42 posted on 08/24/2010 8:04:18 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

Spengler has been a longtime favorite of mine. The only thing is, reading his columns often prompt me to get a good, stiff drink - and I don’t drink! :-)


43 posted on 08/24/2010 8:04:38 PM PDT by Ted Grant
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To: Ted Grant

Same here Spengler and Greenfield of Sultan Knish are a daily read for me.


44 posted on 08/24/2010 8:08:41 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: Fred Hayek

Hosni Mubarak’s name, Hosni, is the same name as our president’s middle name. In Arabic the consonant trigram HSN is the only thing that counts and determines the word or name. The different sounds and positions of the vowels are matters of local accent. Thus Hassan, Hosni, Hussein, etc, are all the same name just as Ian, John, Sean, Jan are all different renderings of the same name in Latin rooted languages.


45 posted on 08/24/2010 8:09:07 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: Artemis Webb
Islam is not a pagan religion.

Islam is a terror ideology. The war against Islam must be won.

Three Things About Islam

46 posted on 08/24/2010 8:12:27 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: manc

0 going to church wont make him Christian any more than going into a garage will make him an automobile. If you really want to know if he’s Christian only one question will tell: “What think you of Christ?” The answer will out the truth.


47 posted on 08/24/2010 8:21:50 PM PDT by pankot
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To: CharlesMartelsGhost

“Robert Reilly recounts Islam’s abandonment of Hellenistic reason, and blames it for the subsequent decline of Muslim civilization and the rise of radical Islam.”

Oh c’mon. The light of Reason turned on Islam would reveal it for what it is: The usual crap perpetrated by the usual suspects for the same old reason. Anyone who applies Reason to Islam walks away from it, period.


48 posted on 08/24/2010 8:23:55 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: pankot

It’s a primarily military, pseudo-religious, cult of death.


49 posted on 08/24/2010 8:24:38 PM PDT by airborne (Why is it we won't allow the Bible in school, but we will in prison? Think about it.)
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To: FatherofFive
"Islam is a terror ideology."

I agree. But the question wasn't, "Is Islam a terror ideology?". The question was "Is Islam a pagan religion or ideology covered by a vaneer of monotheism?". That was the question that I answered.

Look, you won't find a harsher critic of Islam than myself. I've called Mohammed a "baby raping sonofabitch" before. I called him that because the statement is true. The list of Islam's offenses to any sense of decency is myriad. However I see no purpose in making things up about Islam, i.e that Islam is a pagan religion when it clearly is not. Why make up something when the real horrors and sins of Islam are almost limitless?

50 posted on 08/24/2010 8:25:20 PM PDT by Artemis Webb (DeMint 2012...Barbour2012....I would be happy either way.)
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