Posted on 09/17/2010 8:33:36 AM PDT by Kaslin
An accomplished young man is killed by police outside a Vegas Costco, and bystander accounts starkly contrast with official reports.
Erik Scott was a West Point graduate, Army veteran, MBA graduate of Duke University, and a medical sales rep for Boston Scientific. He was gunned down by three Las Vegas police officers after they responded to a 911 call by Costco store employees reporting a man with a gun, possibly on narcotics, behaving erratically.
Scott was 38 years old, shopping with his girlfriend for items they needed as they moved in together. Unfortunately, those are the only details of the story on which anyone agrees.
To hear the side of the story presented by Scott’s family, friends, and some eyewitnesses, Erik Scott’s death was the result of ignorance and embellishment on the part of the Costco staff, and a combative, deterministic mindset from responding officers.
Other witnesses and the police claim that Eric Scott was armed and acting irrationally, and that his own actions led to his shooting.
What we know for certain is that Scott was in the camping section of the store taking bottles out of their packaging, attempting to determine how many of the bottles would fit in a cooler he was thinking of purchasing. At some point he bent over and his shirt rode up, exposing the pistol he had concealed at the small of his back.
A Costco employee saw the holstered sidearm and told Scott he was not allowed to have the weapon in the store. Scott replied that he had a permit and the right to carry his weapon. He then went back to shopping. The employee called over a manager, who informed a 20-something security guard, who made a 911 call to police.
We do not know precisely what was said in that important call, because the police have refused to release it. We do, however, know from police radio traffic picked up by a scanner that the guard had told police that Erik Scott was armed with a gun, was acting aggressively and erratically, and that he may have been under the influence of drugs.
It must have been a frightening tale: over a dozen police officers responded, along with a helicopter, ambulance, and competing incident command teams.
As the police began to form a massive perimeter outside, Costco managers began evacuating the entire store without apparently explaining why to anyone. As Scott and his girlfriend exited the store he was identified to police officers, who were waiting with guns drawn outside the front door.
A blog from Erik’s family described what happened next:
Erik turned to find three officers facing him, guns drawn, and all three shouting different commands: “Get on the ground!” “Drop your weapon!” “Keep your hands up!” Erik held his hands up, spoke calmly, told them he DID have a concealed firearm and a legal CCW and was an ex-Army officer. His girlfriend was screaming about Erik being a West Point grad, former Army officer, etc. Erik leaned to his left, hands still up, to expose the pistol, and repeated, “I am disarming; I am disarming.” Witnesses say he started to lower his right hand, palm OUT, perhaps intending to remove holster and gun together — but never got the hand below his shoulder, when one of the cops (believed to be William Mosher, who had committed a fatal shooting in 2006) shot Erik in the chest with a .45-caliber semi-automatic weapon. Erik dropped to his knees, clearly in shock, his face a picture of disbelief. He was shot a second time and collapsed. The rest is ugly. The three officers unloaded again, firing a total of seven hollow-point rounds. At least four, possibly five, hit Erik in the back, after he was on the ground and dying.
Two experts hired by Scott’s family examined his body. They claim that of the seven .45 ACP hollowpoint bullets fired into Scott’s body, one was fired through his armpit, suggesting his arm was raised at the time. Four remaining shots were fired into his back. There were no exit wounds, making it all but impossible for police to claim that investigators misread through-and-through wounds.
Metro Police Captain Patrick Neville claimed a different series of events, based in part on the 911 call that police have not released:
I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground, hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired. When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine.
There are no commands or communications between Erik Scott and police captured on a nine-minute audiotape during which the shooting occurred. Officers not directly in front of the store are heard over the radio establishing a perimeter and trying to block off access to the store’s parking lot. The first indication Scott and the police have made contact is when a officer breaks in to call “shots fired” after Scott is on the ground, already dying or dead.
In another interview, Captain Neville claimed Scott did not listen to police commands:
He does not comply with that order. He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out … uh, at which time the weapon was out of the waistband, the officers — three officers — discharged their weapons.
Others on the scene did not see it that way. Robert Garcia directly conflicts the reports of police:
I was close enough to see this guy’s face, and to see his hands, and to see his body go down.
Walking just ten feet in front of Erik Scott, Garcia exited the Costco to see officers with guns drawn. He heard an officer yell: “Put it down! Get down!”
Then he claims four shots were fired, and he instantly turned towards the victim:
After hearing the shots I see the guy going down. I looked at — I saw his hands. His hands had no gun in it. I looked on the ground because — just, I just did that. I looked down and I didn’t see a gun. I saw what I thought were maybe sunglasses. And a pen.
This matches up with several other eyewitness claims that officers William Mosher, Joshua Stark, and Thomas Mendiola fired nearly immediately after shouting conflicting commands at Scott, giving him little or no time to respond. Four other witnesses within 20 feet of the store’s entrance all agree that Scott never brandished a weapon or made a move that could be interpreted as brandishing a weapon.
A coroner’s inquest is to be held next week, but the outcome seems foreordained. In the past 34 years, only one Metro officer has ever been found to have acted improperly out of at least 190 inquests, and that officer wasn’t charged with a crime.
For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons. Scott did not violate any laws in carrying his weapon in the store. It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, and that the officers who shot him will be merely the latest exonerated in a long line from an apparently unaccountable police force.
What do you need a radar detector for?
Once on the scene, the cops fully intended to shoot someone, and they were juiced up for the event, regardless of the situation at hand.
That's what they did. Shot him dead, after premeditating, and with total disregard of the circumstances.
Sounds like William Mosher is the Vegas PD equivalent of the FBI’s Lon Horiuchi. Real tough guy.
I’ve read on other threads that while it may be Costco store policy not to allow firearms on their premises that this particular store did not have any sign stating that.
I do too.
It’s just that files are way more stable than the old, OH-The-Tape-Broke....tapes.
So, it’s suspect that just a few files.....what?...just those files?
Anyways, the system is done by professionals and stable, and copying is as easy as on your desktop.
Costco is BS(ing) about the ‘tapes’, dollars to donuts.
Yup. I agree.
So, when an employee states that store policy is that guns aren't allowed, I would think it's time to leave. Posted sign or no sign.
>I am near radical 2nd Amendment advocate, even for felons who have done their time, but also a private property fiend. If you are on someone’s property, they are the king, and obey or leave, just as you would wish on your property.
The question is, I think, to what degree does a private property THAT IS OPEN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC remain private.
The two are contradictory, in nature, either it *IS* open to the general public, and therefore public in nature [and should be governed by the same public-laws] OR it is not [and the property truly is private].
Or else shoot the guy dead on the spot, right? </sarc>
It’s also because liberals love to see a conservative slaughtered and then remain mute regarding the situation.
The executives of Costco, if they possessed any virtue, would have made explicit public expression of proper procedures before and after such an incident. They haven’t.
Instead they are aiding and abetting injustice, if not directly, then indirectly by failing to come forward with timely information and reduce the obvious implication that Costco prefers the public surrender their Constitutional rights in return for their squeezing more financial interest.
I suspect very few, if anybody, in the Costco hierarchy, has forthright virtue sufficient enough to even recognize their culpability in the entire affair. I suspect they are half cowards and half mediocre managers, simply scared about whatever course of action they take might inflict them with more financial liabilities, so they remain mute and turn it over to lawyers to handle their responsibilities.
Too bad, they didn’t have the same guts to turn their initial conflict with the Army officer with a CCW permit over to lawyers, instead of crying Wolf! Wolf! to a trigger happy law enforcement group, so much more interested in killing anybody they accused than bringing the issue to justice that they made the situation much worse.
Who in their right mind would place faith trust and confidence in any of the Nevada government today? They always been corrupt and will continue to promote corruption.
>>I’ve read on other threads that while it may be Costco store policy not to allow firearms on their premises that this particular store did not have any sign stating that.
>
>So, when an employee states that store policy is that guns aren’t allowed, I would think it’s time to leave. Posted sign or no sign.
Hmm, you’re a bit of an non-confrontationalist then (like me).
But let’s go into the hypothetical; let’s say I’m open carrying in one of my city parks and someone calls me in to the police... should I comply with all their demands? Could they legitimately arrest me?
To know where the friggin’ cops are of course. Why else?
These are not my friends.
If it were me, absolutely I would comply. Save the truth for when it's needed, court.
Could they legitimately arrest me?
If there's no law against it, then it wouldn't be a legitimate arrest. That doesn't mean they won't arrest you. Then again, that's what court is for, yes? I have read many news articles where people are arrested for open carry because the police, in their ignorance of the law, arrest the person.
>>But let’s go into the hypothetical; let’s say I’m open carrying in one of my city parks and someone calls me in to the police... should I comply with all their demands?
>
>If it were me, absolutely I would comply. Save the truth for when it’s needed, court.
Good answer.
>>Could they legitimately arrest me?
>
>If there’s no law against it, then it wouldn’t be a legitimate arrest.
Let’s say there’s a big old sign that says, among other things that there are no firearms allowed in the park.
Does that make the arrest legitimate?
>That doesn’t mean they won’t arrest you. Then again, that’s what court is for, yes? I have read many news articles where people are arrested for open carry because the police, in their ignorance of the law, arrest the person.
And here’s where it get’s interesting; in my state, New Mexico, we have the following in our Constitution:
Art 2, Sec. 6. [Right to bear arms.]
No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.
Does this information change the answer you would have given above?
Hmmm. Well, if the state law says it's ok to carry in parks I think that would render the, assuming it's a towns law, void.
Does this information change the answer you would have given above?
Certainly gives one pause to be sure. For me, I have CCW's for years and would never open carry. That's just me, but you raise a great point. I guess it all comes down to how far we'd like to take it, ya know?
It’s still private, privately owned and insured. I’d have no problem with an establishment, open to the public, forbidding guns. Fine with me, I’ll take my business elsewhere, or not. Both of us have options.
You can swear in a low down dive bar just fine, but not in a high class places.
If a business owner doesn’t want some pants around the knees, base ball cap on sideways customer, fine. Or makes you wear a suit and a tie, fine.
I don’t think the open to the public or not argument is strong for speech, dress codes, or behavior all of which would go unmolested in publicly owned spaces. Same with guns, unmolested in the public sphere, at the owners discretion in the private sphere.
Apparently he moved his hands toward his waist...regardless of the multiple shouted instructions, had he not moved his arms toward the weapon he might still be alive...it seems from the article that he voluntarily said “I’m disarming”, and started to move his arm down...that’s not what the cops wanted him to do...they wanted him to follow THEIR instructions not his own...he wasn’t complying ...should they have shot him Hell No! They shouldn’t have fired until they saw actual gun metal...how do they know he was actually armed? they never saw a gun they only had a report of one. So many mistakes led to this tragedy the ccw holder, the security and the cops.
When was the last time you had a “business” interaction with a cop?
I have personally seen to it that one CHP officer went to jail and two others were reassigned to Death Valley. I hate bad cops and it has been years since I met good one.
That particular COSTCO had no such sign(s).
When was the last time you had a “business” interaction with a cop?
I have personally seen to it that one CHP officer went to jail and two others were reassigned to Death Valley. I hate bad cops and it has been years since I met good one.
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