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Incest and the Degradation of Our Vocabulary
Witherspoon Institute ^ | 1/5/2011 | Matthew J. Franck

Posted on 01/06/2011 5:17:20 AM PST by markomalley

What’s wrong with a prominent professor’s incestuous relationship with his daughter.

The story of David Epstein, the Columbia University political scientist and Huffington Post blogger now facing criminal charges of incest, has launched a very interesting discussion. What is fascinating about it, and deeply disturbing, is the inability of some commentators to articulate what is morally wrong about the act of incest. It is almost equally disturbing that a legal argument for a “right” to engage in adult, consensual incest stands on surprisingly firm footing, thanks to precedents the United States Supreme Court has already established in other cases on the “autonomy of the person” under our Constitution.

Professor Epstein, 46, has been charged with third-degree incest for carrying on a sexual relationship over a three-year period with his daughter, now 24. From what little has emerged about the case, there are no charges that the relationship antedated the daughter’s eighteenth birthday, nor has it been alleged that the sexual relations were other than consensual. (The daughter herself has not so far been charged with a crime, however.) So powerful is the contemporary opinion that “consenting adults” may engage, in private, in any acts that commit no “harm” (narrowly understood in almost purely physical terms) to the parties in question or to others, that some observers have merely shrugged indifferently at the Epstein case, while others have striven to find grounds for condemning such incestuous acts but finally confessed their failure to find them.

After briefly describing the facts of the Epstein case, UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh asked, “Should it be illegal, and if so, exactly why?” The comments from his readers were not, in the main, terribly edifying. Volokh’s UCLA colleague Stephen Bainbridge cited the ethicist Leon Kass’s phrase “the wisdom of repugnance,” and said there was “definitely an ick factor” at work in his judgment of the case. But beyond this instinctual support for an ancient taboo, Bainbridge had little else to offer. And such an “ick factor” may be all most people can summon upon learning of this case. The taboo being so ancient, so much a part of “second nature” in people’s moral make-up, it has gone unarticulated for so long that when the need arises to articulate it, we may find ourselves speechless.

William Saletan made perhaps the most successful attempt to articulate a reason for condemning even consensual adult incest. He rejected the oft-cited risk of hereditary birth defects as a reason to prohibit incest, because such a risk is not present in some incestuous relations and is easily obviated in others. And violence and exploitation could not be said to be at work in truly consensual cases of incest between adults. Saletan finally settled, without much further elaboration, on calling incest a “cancer of the family” because it perverts already-existing relationships between family members.

It does indeed. Saletan might have consulted the analysis offered in C.S. Lewis’s 1960 book The Four Loves had he wished to develop the point. Lewis’s four forms of love are affection (the Greek storgē), friendship (philia), sexual or romantic love (eros), and charity or Christian love (agapē). Here we may stick to the first three—the “natural loves,” Lewis calls them—and observe that they are not so much variations of one thing as different species of love. Each has its own integrity, and is in an important way constitutive of human happiness. Some overlap among or progression through the various loves is possible, of course. Married couples, for instance, may begin as friends, become lovers, and finally find their relationship cemented in bonds of affection, that “humblest love” that as often as not involves a great deal of “taking for granted.”

But while such overlap is appropriate in some instances, in others it is inappropriate—indeed, it can be an outrage to mix loves or for one to intrude upon another. The relations of children to parents, and of siblings to each other, the most basic of familial ties, are intense and lifelong relations of affection, in which great variations on storgē are visible. Such close kinship, grounded in nature or even only in law and custom (as with step-siblings, for instance), is often its own justification and support. Surely many of us have been heard to say something like, “I don’t much like him, but I’m obliged to love him, because he’s my brother.” Introduce the element of eros, however, and affection is not reinforced; it is destroyed, and replaced by something unnatural to the relationship in its proper sense. The human good of parent-child love, or of sibling intimacy, is sacrificed to a misplaced passion that cannot achieve its own rightful end.

Much more could be said on this score, about the natural hierarchies, duties, and trusts that are shattered by incest, even between “consenting adults.” But the recent discussions of this matter reveal how decayed is our moral vocabulary for considering it, how nearly lost is any understanding that our various loves have their natures and purposes, which must be respected if those loves are to conduce to our happiness. Only such decay can account for the failure to grasp that a man cannot be a father to his lover, or a lover to his daughter.

The degradation of our moral sense about these things has been driven by the elevation of eros above all other loves, by the reduction of eros almost entirely to sexual behavior alone, and by a notion of untrammeled freedom to seek sexual satisfaction. In this development, the Supreme Court has played a pivotal destructive role. In its 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating laws against homosexual sodomy, the Court referred to “an emerging awareness that liberty gives substantial protection to adult persons in deciding how to conduct their private lives in matters pertaining to sex.” As Justice Anthony Kennedy went on to say:

The present case does not involve minors. It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused. It does not involve public conduct or prostitution. It does not involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter. The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle. The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives. The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.

As I had occasion to write several years ago in the context of another case of incest, if this is sound constitutional reasoning about the “liberty” protected by the due process clause, then it is as sound for the invalidation of incest laws as it is for the invalidation of sodomy laws. By declaring that a law prohibiting a sex act between consenting adults could not even pass the “rational basis” test, the least stringent of the constitutional standards the Court applies, Justice Kennedy in fact invented a kind of super-fundamental right to the sexual satisfactions of one’s choice, so long as one had a willing partner (or partners) past the age of majority. While a federal circuit court and a state supreme court have attempted to divert the reach of the Lawrence precedent from its obvious impact on incest statutes, their arguments unconvincingly deny the plain inferences to be drawn from Justice Kennedy’s reasoning.

Saletan insisted that there is “a rational basis to forbid” incest, even when it is the act of consenting adults—although he seemed also to want to leave his own moral strictures largely unenforced in such cases. The burden of his argument, however, was to distinguish between homosexual relations and incest, giving moral approval to the former while retaining condemnation of the latter. Indeed, as a supporter of same-sex marriage, Saletan argues that while incest is a “cancer” that eats away at the family, homosexuals should be encouraged to marry in order to “form . . . stable famil[ies].”

For our present purposes we can leave aside the question whether same-sex couples can form unions that deserve to be called “marriages,” or whether homosexual relations correspond to the nature or purposes of any of the “natural loves,” as Lewis called them. (On the nature of marriage, see the articles collected here on the debate begun recently by Sherif Girgis, Robert P. George, and Ryan T. Anderson.) What we must notice is that Saletan’s strictures against incest rest on moral arguments of a kind that the Supreme Court has already rejected in the Lawrence case. Above all other considerations, the Court has elevated autonomy, choice, a freedom from being trammeled in one’s private preferences regarding intimate matters of sexual partnering, and even a freedom from being “demeaned” by public disapproval in law or policy of one’s choices in such matters. A majoritarian moral preference for the integrity of the family cannot, in this arena, claim a “rational basis” in the law as against the autonomous choices of free individuals to disregard that integrity if it suits them. There is no such thing, by the inexorable logic of Lawrence, as “the family.” There are only “families,” constituted by the choices of individuals to make them, unmake them, and bend their purposes to their own will.

Whatever the fate of Professor Epstein, his case forces us to choose between alternative courses of reasoning regarding the morality we embody in our law. Do we believe in the “autonomy of the person,” as a constitutionally protected freedom to live as though human relationships were clay in our hands, to be molded as our desires imperiously demand? Or do we believe that sexuality, love, and family are things that constitute us, possessing their own natures and purposes and calling us to answer to them? On our choice between these two understandings, much of our future happiness depends.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: autonomy; bestiality; fornication; homosexualagenda; incest; libertarian; moralabsolutes; nambla; pedophilia; polygamy; sexualsin; zoophilia
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Once societal norms are broken, as happened with homosexuality, there are no limits.
1 posted on 01/06/2011 5:17:21 AM PST by markomalley
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To: markomalley

Once societal norms are broken??

They have been for many years in this liberal infested country.


2 posted on 01/06/2011 5:23:11 AM PST by maddog55 (OBAMA, You can't fix stupid...)
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To: markomalley

None. Legal incest and polygamy are next.


3 posted on 01/06/2011 5:24:46 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: markomalley

From Gay Rights to Incest without passing Polygamy and collecting 200 dollars. Cool! I doubt I’ve ever seen a quicker descent into degradation by the chattering class.

I doubt I’ve ever seen a finer example of the moral bankruptcy of today’s “intellectual” class. Apparently “intellectual” actually means “the inability to tell right from wrong”.

Time for the torches and pitchforks.


4 posted on 01/06/2011 5:28:24 AM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: markomalley

I encourage the liberals to commit all the incest they wish

After a few generations of such inbreeding we sane people will triumph as they will be reduced to a sub-race slobbering retards. Inbreeding by nature is a sure way to introduce a world of ills to its practitioners

Liberals are not sane.


5 posted on 01/06/2011 5:31:46 AM PST by Gasshog (going to get what all those libs asked for, but its not what they expected.)
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To: markomalley
Columbia University political scientist and Huffington Post blogger

Not to be confused with normal people, these are liberal pukes to begin with and have no connection with American ideals of family. I expect the full range of deviance from Huffpo and Columbia staff.

6 posted on 01/06/2011 5:33:57 AM PST by existtoexcel
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To: markomalley
Introduce the element of eros, however, and affection is not reinforced; it is destroyed, and replaced by something unnatural to the relationship in its proper sense.
The human good of parent-child love, or of sibling intimacy, is sacrificed to a misplaced passion that cannot achieve its own rightful end.

That's two instances of mighty poor reasoning. "Unnatural" and "rightful" are just dropped there with their unexamined weight. Sure we all know what they mean and we all know why incest is wrong, but don't attempt to prove it logically by such circular reasoning.

7 posted on 01/06/2011 5:38:49 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
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To: Gasshog
"I encourage the liberals to commit all the incest they wish...After a few generations of such inbreeding we sane people will triumph as they will be reduced to a sub-race slobbering retards. Inbreeding by nature is a sure way to introduce a world of ills to its practitioners."

I wouldn't be so sure of that. For many centuries, inbreeding was an essential qualification for becoming a monarch.

8 posted on 01/06/2011 5:40:30 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: maddog55
Genetic inbreeding causes birth defects, sometimes resulting in drain bammage... and liberals that are likely to reproduce with other viable idiot mutants.

In one sense this is a good thing; otherwise we would run out of Senators, college professors, and Federal Judges.

9 posted on 01/06/2011 5:44:53 AM PST by mmercier
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To: markomalley

Not trying to hijack this post, but I finally saw it ALL on the Today Show this week. Meredith Viera interviewed a mother and her little boy - who was wearing a pink tutu. She lets her kid dress as a little girl because it makes him “feel calm.” She’s on a campaign to let tiny little children dress in drag if they want to. Sick, sick, sick.


10 posted on 01/06/2011 5:50:05 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: Gasshog
Ever watch Idocracy. It is precisely that scenario. The idiots inbreed at fantastic paces and eventually the whole world is covered in morons.
11 posted on 01/06/2011 5:52:43 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
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To: Gasshog
I encourage the liberals to commit all the incest they wish

*Shrug* It would only assure they would continue to vote Democrat.

12 posted on 01/06/2011 5:53:58 AM PST by Gorzaloon ("Mother...My Couric itches.")
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To: markomalley
So powerful is the contemporary opinion that “consenting adults” may engage, in private, in any acts that commit no “harm” (narrowly understood in almost purely physical terms) to the parties in question or to others,

That's because the argument is correct. Once one extends the 'harm' argument beyond the physical or financial (force or fraud) one opens the door to government regulating every aspect of our behavior at the point of a gun.

If two adults want to engage in this behavior and no force or fraud is involved there's no reason for the State to criminalize the behavior.

It may be disgusting and worthy of societal opprobrium, and I think it is, but that doesn't mean it should be criminal.

L

13 posted on 01/06/2011 5:55:32 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Inbreeding is an essential quality of Islam. Over half of all Muslims are married to their first cousins. As were their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on for the past 50 or so generations. Now, do you wonder why the only thing that Islam has produced in 1400 years is war and murderers?


14 posted on 01/06/2011 5:55:37 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
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To: Joe 6-pack
>inbreeding was an essential qualification<

I read an interesting book years back (can not remember the tittle) about the Tory remnants remaining in the US after the revolution.

The practice of arranged marriages within families of domestic British descendants still holding land granted by the crown persists to this day.

The book was based on families in Hamilton Massachusetts.

Shocker there.

15 posted on 01/06/2011 5:56:18 AM PST by mmercier
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To: markomalley
Liberalism invites, breeds moral and cultural chaos. And we know what chaos brings. It is the anti-world of amoral degradation and meaningless existence. There is bondage in chaos; and Freedom is suffocated.

Liberals truly fashion a world from the 'dark side' elements. . .they cannot help but avoid, decry. . .smear all that reps a Good, in their presence.

(No effort to small for assault. . .they use the foulest terms to degrade what is good and great - without being able to explain the hate behind their ideas - as easy a tactic as it is cheap. (i.e. the latest example that comes to mind; 'those who have a 'fetish' for our Constitution.") David Letterman positing that John Boehner's emotionalism as a 'drug induced' display. . .They MUST taint all and bring 'good' down to their level; where it is unrecognizable.)

All this stands as a direct assault upon the Moral Order of Life - and the Mind it unfolds from - while tapping into the fraudulent and inauthentic replacement of 'Good' while being authentically it's opposite.

16 posted on 01/06/2011 5:56:24 AM PST by cricket (Osama - NOT made in the USA. . .and Obama, not made in the USA either.. .)
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To: Gasshog
Oops! That's Idiocracy.
17 posted on 01/06/2011 5:57:37 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
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To: Seruzawa

Romans 1
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


18 posted on 01/06/2011 5:58:51 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a (de)humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: markomalley

You are correct, markomalley. One cannot rationally support a constitutional right to homosexual sodomy without also supporting a right to incest, polygamy, polyandry, and pretty much whatever else consenting adults want to do. Scalia and others pretty much wrote as much when they dissented in Lawrence v. Texas.

Scalia: “State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are likewise sustainable only in light of Bowers’ validation of laws based on moral choices. Every single one of these laws is called into question by today’s decision dissent.”

Without our country’s Judeo-Christian foundation, there is literally no limit to the depravity that man will do. Want to know what Lot felt like in Sodom? Prepare yourself, because that is coming, my FRiend.


19 posted on 01/06/2011 6:01:54 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: markomalley
Or do we believe that sexuality, love, and family are things that constitute us, possessing their own natures and purposes and calling us to answer to them?

There's another alternative. Human nature as observed empirically through the millennia. It has definitive characteristics. Among them, social behavior which is absolutely necessary to our existence. Social behavior has structure, roles, rules, imperatives, taboos. And most of them are there precisely because we're so imaginative and free; what is "unnatural" can always be imagined and performed.

You can make the case entirely without religion or the word "moral." In other words you can make the case so that even an atheist or a criminal understands it.

Mind the rules, you should thrive; disregard them, you will likely regret it.

And yet these same liberal elites who think it's ok to commit incest with your daughter, think you need to be formally forbidden to procure her a hamburger over 600 calories.

20 posted on 01/06/2011 6:02:25 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
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To: markomalley

Pure sickness. Normal people are not attracted to their offspring. It must be something built in. I have two gorgeous daughters and have never been attracted to either.


21 posted on 01/06/2011 6:06:50 AM PST by umgud
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To: CitizenUSA

You just had to throw in Lot, didn’t ya?

Genesis 19:30-38


22 posted on 01/06/2011 6:08:48 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
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To: mmercier

My family has been in this country since l620, and I have traced every member of the family down to my generation, and not one of them married a cousin or anything close. In fact, Gov Bradford (my ancestor) sent back to England for a new wife when his first wife died during that first year. And guess what, I’m a Republican. So that kind of proves what some are saying about inbreeding.


23 posted on 01/06/2011 6:13:10 AM PST by MondoQueen
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To: Lurker

You as well as the majority of leftists and many libertarians seem to follow what is known as the Witches rede:

“An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will”

To me it seems that most of the left-wing and most libertarians seem to think that these words are a part of our Constitution but they are not. These words were originally coined by the man who called himself “The Beast” – Aliester Crowley and were then later altered to include the part about ‘no harm’, his original wording was ‘Do As Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law”. In other words do anything you want because the human will is paramount.

It is interesting to me that Crowley was what you would call a libertine (a A libertine is one devoid of most moral restraints) and that this perversion of the ideal of liberty seems to have been adopted by many who call themselves libertarians. The libertarian party motto being “Live and Let Live” seems to imply that you should not have to follow anyone’s else moral laws.

Yet of course this type of thinking strips the people of the ‘right to representation’ being that it allows no moral laws to be passed. It also leaves the definition of the word ‘harm’ up to only the judgment of a panel of judges and not up to ‘We the People’.

Yet the main point I have to make here is that these words (the Wiccan rede) are NOT in our Constitution. It is a continual lie that is repeated by leftists and libertarians that this has anything at all to do with our Constitution or the thinking of the Founders.

It is this type of thinking that is leading to the moral decay and destruction of our society. It is damaging to children and will eventually destroy true liberty in this nation.


24 posted on 01/06/2011 6:14:31 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: markomalley
Adult, willing participant daughter, as yet, to be charged with anything. Aside from condemning the incest, I condemn that too.
25 posted on 01/06/2011 6:16:51 AM PST by Graybeard58 (Don't tell Obama what comes after a trillion)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

You just had to throw in Lot, didn’t ya?

LOL. Yep. My post had something for both sides in the debate, I guess.


26 posted on 01/06/2011 6:21:30 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: miss marmelstein

mother and her little boy - who was wearing a pink tutu.


Yup, and here is the FR thread.

Princess boy [my @$$]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2651697/posts


27 posted on 01/06/2011 6:22:07 AM PST by Arrowhead1952 (America has two cancers - democrats and RINOS.)
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To: CitizenUSA
Without our country’s Judeo-Christian foundation, there is literally no limit to the depravity that man will do. Want to know what Lot felt like in Sodom? Prepare yourself, because that is coming, my FRiend.

Interesting example you brought up, now for the rest of the story:

Both of Lot's daughters got Lot drunk and had sex with him, both resulting in pregnancies.

28 posted on 01/06/2011 6:22:11 AM PST by Graybeard58 (Don't tell Obama what comes after a trillion)
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To: TheBigIf

If they want to do “what ye will,” they should go live under a bridge. I’m fine with that. One less freak in our midst.
Trouble is, they keep coming out to forage and prey on innocents.
In fact, nowadays they are bold enough to approach the Supreme Court.
Rousseau himself would blush.


29 posted on 01/06/2011 6:24:13 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
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To: umgud
Pure sickness. Normal people are not attracted to their offspring. It must be something built in. I have two gorgeous daughters and have never been attracted to either.

Same situation here, the very thought of it would make me ill.

I have grown grand daughters too (all beautiful of course) and the same applies to them.

30 posted on 01/06/2011 6:25:27 AM PST by Graybeard58 (Don't tell Obama what comes after a trillion)
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To: markomalley

We are Rome...... And Rome is burning.


31 posted on 01/06/2011 6:25:32 AM PST by NeverForgetBataan (To the German Commander: ..........................NUTS !)
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To: Lurker

I think there’s a fine distinction there, and you appear to understand it well. To wit, just because the state doesn’t criminalize an activity, it doesn’t mean that activity should be celebrated or endorsed by the state. In other words, sodomy should probably be legal, but that doesn’t mean the state should subsidize or affirm sodomy via gay marriage, right?


32 posted on 01/06/2011 6:25:37 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

668: “And yet these same liberal elites who think it’s ok to commit incest with your daughter, think you need to be formally forbidden to procure her a hamburger over 600 calories.”

Crazy, isn’t it?


33 posted on 01/06/2011 6:28:34 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

The reason that they are becoming so emboldened is because of this leftist/libertarian mindset that believes that the Wiccan rede is part of the Constitution. It is not.


34 posted on 01/06/2011 6:32:26 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: Blood of Tyrants

Ever watch Idocracy.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
No, but I did watch Idiocracy, did you? Idiocracy is a documentary based on current conditions as far as I can tell.


35 posted on 01/06/2011 6:32:56 AM PST by RipSawyer
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To: Lurker; TheBigIf; CitizenUSA
It may be disgusting and worthy of societal opprobrium, and I think it is, but that doesn't mean it should be criminal.

Unfortunately, in our society, if it isn't prohibited, the implication is that it is condoned, endorsed, and fully protected by our non-discrimination laws.

36 posted on 01/06/2011 6:41:07 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Yes. May I offer a perfect example of the possible results: Prince Charles and his sister, Princess Anne. Ah, the House of “Windsor”.


37 posted on 01/06/2011 6:48:08 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: markomalley; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW

This is all a part of the homosexual agenda.


38 posted on 01/06/2011 6:51:12 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: CitizenUSA
To wit, just because the state doesn’t criminalize an activity, it doesn’t mean that activity should be celebrated or endorsed by the state.

You are correct. It is quite simply no concern of the State's.

L

39 posted on 01/06/2011 6:53:43 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: markomalley
and fully protected by our non-discrimination laws.

Which is the other side of the same coin. It is, as I said, quite simply none of the State's business either way. It should neither be protected nor criminalized.

A moral State exists for three basic purposes and those are to protect the lives, property, and Rights of its citizens. Period.

L

40 posted on 01/06/2011 6:57:48 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: CitizenUSA

I hear that Lot’s wife was a salty tongued old gal.


41 posted on 01/06/2011 6:59:27 AM PST by RipSawyer
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To: Lurker

It is a concern of ‘We the People’ and thus so the state.


42 posted on 01/06/2011 7:00:23 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: Lurker

You say that the state exists to protect for one ‘the rights’ of the people. Do you not believe in the ‘right to representation’ though? If the people of a state believe that sodomy or incest are harmful would you deny their ‘right to representation’ on the issue?


43 posted on 01/06/2011 7:12:25 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: Lurker; TheBigIf

I understand your point of view, and I think voters should tread carefully before enacting any law. However, I also agree with TheBigIf that states have the right to enact laws governing morality. You may not agree, and you’re entitled to vote against restrictions on prostitution, incest, or whatever, but there’s simply no constitutional prohibition against such laws.

As I’ve argued here before, pretty much every law has some basis in morality anyway. Even laws against speed limits make a moral judgment that safe travel is more important than the guy with the fastest car having the right of way. Equal treatment under the law and the concept of the rule of law itself are based on moral judgments. You seem to want to cordon off sex laws (and maybe more) for special treatment.

It’s not that I don’t sympathize with the concept that consenting adults should be generally free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, but what goes on in the bedroom often can and does affect things outside of the bedroom. In our country, voters, not black robed tyrants, should be making these decisions. You might even overturn a great number of laws restricting sex practices if you garner the support of a majority of voters, while my state might enact even stricter provisions. That’s how it’s supposed to work in a constitutional republic.


44 posted on 01/06/2011 7:17:04 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: RipSawyer

I forgot that Lot’s daughters tricked him into sleeping with him, but the reference seemed fitting. Lot was a moral man who was rescued from Sodom’s destruction. He was hunkered down with his family, literally surrounded while the sodomites paraded around his home. The sodomites themselves took great pride in their sinfulness and paraded about without shame. Such awaits this country.


45 posted on 01/06/2011 7:21:18 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Coming soon! DADT...for Christians.)
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To: Lurker
A moral State exists for three basic purposes and those are to protect the lives, property, and Rights of its citizens. Period.

No argument in principle. Unfortunately, the practice these days is not the same as the principle. Nowhere near it.

46 posted on 01/06/2011 7:22:21 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: TheBigIf
You say that the state exists to protect for one ‘the rights’ of the people.

Yes. Do you know what a "Right" is? I don't think you do.

Do you not believe in the ‘right to representation’ though?

Probably not the way you do.

If the people of a state believe that sodomy or incest are harmful would you deny their ‘right to representation’ on the issue?

Define "harm". I think you're confusing "harm" with "most of us don't like it."

What if the people of a State think that Jews are harmful? How about if they think steak dinners are harmful? Should they be able to criminalize eating steak? What if they think Catholocism is harmful?

Many people "think" (they don't really think it, they just believe it) that Carbon Dioxide is harmful and therefore the Government has to strictly regulate and in some cases criminalize the emmission of it. Are those people right in their thinking?

Some people "think" that the lack of having a health insurance program is harmful and that it should be criminalized. Are they right in their thinking?

Here's a hint for you. You're not really thinking. You're believing. There's a big difference.

L

47 posted on 01/06/2011 7:31:32 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: markomalley

“Palin-Hating Columbia Professor, Huffington Post Blogger, Busted for Incest”

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/epsteinmug.jpg


48 posted on 01/06/2011 7:32:10 AM PST by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: markomalley; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AFA-Michigan; AKA Elena; Abathar; Agitate; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; ..
Homosexual Agenda and Moral Absolutes Ping!

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"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

49 posted on 01/06/2011 7:33:23 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: CitizenUSA
but what goes on in the bedroom often can and does affect things outside of the bedroom.

How and when, specifically if you please.

L

50 posted on 01/06/2011 7:33:33 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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