Skip to comments.Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians
Posted on 01/16/2011 4:10:55 AM PST by marktwain
click here to read article
No real surprise. Many left wing agenda items are quietly supported or artfully ignored like abortion.
well I'm sure that will happen, just as soon as Jesus returns.
Recycled USCCB spew ping, if you wish to wade in...
None of the documents mentioned, especially the USSCB docs, have any real authority. The Church has no offical, binding doctrine or dogma discouraging or prohibiting gun ownership. (Except within the Vatican itself, a very special case.)
A further point, any statements that are a judgment of circumstances (e.g. the degree of threat from terrorism, the amount of crime created by guns, etc.) and not a matter of faith and morals falls completely outside of the Church’s authority to make binding judgments. The Church can err in such judgments just as anyone else can.
The Church also honors St. Gabriel Possenti, whose expert marksmanship saved the village from outlaws.
This is rather silly. There is NO Church Teaching on the subject of gun control. There is clear teaching on the inherent freedom that each human has and the right to defend oneself and others.
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
So, the Pope and the Catholics now defy Jesus’ teachings?
It is one of many reasons I have left the Church.
Guncontrol is one of many social gospel heresies that some parts of the Catholic Church is enamored by.
That was a real fight!
Jesus said sell your Mp4 player and get an assault rifle.
EVERY church is run by men that are flawed.
The is typical "leftist-think" from the European semi-socialist and full socialists who inhabit the middle bureaucracy of the Vatican.
The error in their logic is that they assume that "the state" (i.e. has a functioning army, police force and court system) systems actually work effectively.
This is the same as the erroneous thinking in the Catechism justifying current Church efforts to eliminate the death penalty...which assumes that society actually has mechanisms THAT WORK to protect society from a murderer. I have seen NO evidence that that is true.
The ONLY way, other than the death penalty, to fully protect members of society is a sentence of life imprisonment WITHOUT PAROLE IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT (prison guards are in danger, too).
It does on the use/elimination of the death penalty, which has the same logical disconnect as displayed above.
Render unto Ceasar those things which are Ceasars’, and render unto God those things which are Gods’. In other words, civilian carry is none is the Churchs’ G.D. business.
Laz, He also said:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (Matthew 5:39-42)
I always have trouble with this one. I guess I’ll just be a sinner, because I think I’d be fighting back if some one smacked my right cheek, unless she was good looking!
You mean 'repudiate' right?
Likewise, this is a point where American Catholics can and MUST remind the Pontifical Council for Peace and Justice that the difference in the structure and operation of our Government per the Constitution demands that we continue to have the ability to exercise the 2nd Amendment.
The European mindset on firearms is poisoned (no, that isn't too strong a word) because of two World Wars and two generations of threat from the Soviets... they fail to see how a well-armed public can be a positive thing - in spite of the fact that those totalitarian regimes (particularly Hitler) feared the possibility of an armed public so much that they seized all firearms.
From some conversations that I've had with some Europeans (I've been in Rome a year and a half) they see Americans as "cowboys" whose gun use is out of control -- because that's what their media feeds them.
Now... as far as the USCCB goes - they really ought know better. However, the documents both cited are getting a little old. It might be worth putting some pressure on the bishops if this becomes a more frequent talking point - pressure on individual bishops has affected other things to our advantage such as the beginning of the reform of the CCHD.
They defy a lot of teachings Lazamataz, that being one of the least of them. I pray my catholic brothers and sisters wake up before it’s too late.
Eliminate SIN and then you can eliminate guns. I have NEVER heard a priest or bishop speak on gun control.
Perhaps freedom loving Freepers of the Catholic faith would care to refudiate this article.” ________________________
The critics predisposed conclusions on this matter is like a guy trying to opine on calculus having failed or never taken basic arithmetic.
A no brainer. First of all a committee styled opinion remarking that “....the Church ....opposes firearms for civilians.....” is certainly not the voice of the Church. The sources cited and the committee style group of individuals alone are speaking. This blurb does NOT qualify as the Church speaking. These are hardly a rule of faith, a Church teaching, or any other caricatured and framed pronouncement one might wish to pin on the Church.
The fact is that the Church speaks only when the Holy Father speaks, and only then when he speaks Ex Cathedra, and only then when he speaks on matters of Faith and Morals alone, and only then when it undergirds the Truths of the Christian faith, which have been and are now well known to all the faithful for over 2 thousand years.
To judge “the Church” by the standards of former Catholics, non-practicing Catholics and anti-Catholics of the US is a stupendous error, laughable to traditional Catholics. The Church has certainly NOT spoken on your local gun laws.
All this “peacemaker” talk makes me think of Sam Colt’s version.
No, I deliberately used Sarah Palin’s new word.
A combination of refute and repudiate seemed appropriate.
And sometimes, overt political correctness, too. During my Catholic school days (when I was really young in elementary school), we were subjected to speech control in the form of parents who had diabetic kids in the school actually being allowed to speak in front of the class and demand that we not call their kids “diabetics,” but, rather, people “with diabetes!”
Thank you for your reasoned response. I have supported the efforts by Catholics to have St. Gabriel Possenti made the patron saint of handguners. It may yet happen.
"and now he said unto them, but now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none,let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword."
I don't know how you interpret this, but sounds an awful lot like Jesus not being adverse to weapons for self defense, as opposed to offensive reasons.
Not much chance of that. The CC is the best brainwashing unit on Earth.
Thank you for working toward this; I'm familiar with St. Gabriel but not with the website... heading there now.
To coin a phrase, "mea culpa"
I Shoulda' scanned the page first, Laz, didn't see your post until after I hit the submit button.
There is nothing like this in the Bible. Even Jesus' disciples were commanded to be armed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Perhaps Marxism has now infiltrated the highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy? At my church, on the other hand, we carry every Sunday.
Not Marxism... It can be attributed simply to political correctness on our side of the pond, and irrational fear of weapons (due to three+ generations of war) or the other. See my post upthread.
"blessed be Jehovah, My rock, who teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"
They've been doing that for centuries.
So you’re say that the US Conference of Bishops isnt part of the Catholic Church?
I agree that both of those are beyond the Church's competence, which is why I totally disagree with the effort to eliminate the death penalty, and THIS part of the Catechism's statement:
"Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."
Said condition simply does not exist in today's world. As I said above, "life imprisonment, without parole, in solitary confinement" is the only TRULY workable alternative to the death penalty, but AFAIK, such a sentence has NEVER, EVER been issued.
There is one other possible alternative, and that is surgical severing of the spine to render the perp a quadraplegic. If he/she can't move arms and legs, then they can do no harm.
BUT, neither of the above possible alternatives to the death penalty prevents the perp from having someone ELSE commit murder (crime bosses). So you need to also eliminate the possibility of outside contact with society.
I don't see any of those alternatives ever being seriously considered.
Well, that worked eh? WWI, WWII ~ set world records in deaths by gunfire.
The Pope ought to stop and think for a moment about that.
If “the Church” says this, then “the Church” is mistaken.
What the Catholic Church teaches is found in the Creeds and in solemn teaching documents of Councils and Popes.
News stories are full of things that “the Catholic Church” has “said” or “done,” when the person saying or doing something is a bureaucrat in some diocese, or some Cardinal shooting off his mouth.
The actual Catholic Church teaches both the Principle of Subsidiarity and the Right of Self-Defense. Therefore, the Catholic Church CANNOT teach that citizens should be made helpless before criminals and government.
The title should say “Roman Catholic Church”.
We Baptists are armed to the teeth, and we highly encourage others to do so.
So youre say that the US Conference of Bishops isnt part of the Catholic Church?” ________________________________
Re-reading my own post, I think it is crystal clear what I said. However, I will give a tip. The answer you seek is in the basic arithmetic.
And so the Catholic Church hoists another sail moving it into MORE irrelevance....
That “Church” is dying and Satan's World is beginning to infiltrate the church leaders. Oh well, so much for “tolerance” and Progressive change.
I suspect that the article is an attempt by liberal Catholics to make Church doctrine out of their own political biases.
A great many Germans are freedom loving people, it just happens that most of them immigrated to the United States over time. Germans contributed much to Western civilization. If you look at American's ethnic heritage, the greatest single group share German roots.
Still, the crowd left behind really do believe in this “state monopoly on violence” doctrine. That’s why it never occurs to them that they should do anything when the authorities go nuts.
Alex Murphy, Is that you?
Silly at best.
So the USCCB wants the lion to lay down with the lamb. Good for them. It’s a policy statement on which I, as a good Catholic disagree. It doesn’t make me any less a good Catholic and I would love to have a chance to sit down with the good bishops and argue the point over tea.
quietly opposes firearms for civilians, quietly endorses armed security for high-enough Church officials?