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Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians
Catholic News Service ^ | 14 January, 2011 | Carol Glatz,

Posted on 01/16/2011 4:10:55 AM PST by marktwain

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Perhaps freedom loving Freepers of the Catholic faith would care to refudiate this article.
1 posted on 01/16/2011 4:10:59 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

No real surprise. Many left wing agenda items are quietly supported or artfully ignored like abortion.


2 posted on 01/16/2011 4:15:08 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain
"And as Pope Benedict wrote in his message to the disarmament conference, no reduction or elimination of arms can happen without eliminating violence at its root."

well I'm sure that will happen, just as soon as Jesus returns.

3 posted on 01/16/2011 4:18:43 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain; Mrs. Don-o

Recycled USCCB spew ping, if you wish to wade in...


4 posted on 01/16/2011 4:19:20 AM PST by don-o (Wait. What?.)
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To: marktwain

None of the documents mentioned, especially the USSCB docs, have any real authority. The Church has no offical, binding doctrine or dogma discouraging or prohibiting gun ownership. (Except within the Vatican itself, a very special case.)


5 posted on 01/16/2011 4:27:23 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: marktwain
No surprises here. Pacifism is the party line. During my Catholic school days, I was punished for defending myself in a fist fight against two attackers. They attacked me specifically because I was a Catholic in a Southern Baptist neighborhood. JFK was running for President, and Catholics were openly despised in the community. I bloodied some noses and knocked some teeth out of their heads. I was in mortal danger, yet I was accordingly summoned to stand before the Mother Superior to atone for my sins. As for owning firearms, I don't know of any Catholic who has ever said “I won't own a gun because the Pope told me not to,” or “the Catholic Bishop's conference says...” Sola scriptura.
6 posted on 01/16/2011 4:31:21 AM PST by PowderMonkey (WILL WORK FOR AMMO)
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To: marktwain

A further point, any statements that are a judgment of circumstances (e.g. the degree of threat from terrorism, the amount of crime created by guns, etc.) and not a matter of faith and morals falls completely outside of the Church’s authority to make binding judgments. The Church can err in such judgments just as anyone else can.

The Church also honors St. Gabriel Possenti, whose expert marksmanship saved the village from outlaws.


7 posted on 01/16/2011 4:39:36 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: marktwain

This is rather silly. There is NO Church Teaching on the subject of gun control. There is clear teaching on the inherent freedom that each human has and the right to defend oneself and others.


8 posted on 01/16/2011 4:40:20 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: marktwain

Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

So, the Pope and the Catholics now defy Jesus’ teachings?


9 posted on 01/16/2011 4:44:05 AM PST by Lazamataz (If Illegal Aliens are Undocumented Workers, than Thieves are Undocumented Shoppers.)
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To: marktwain

It is one of many reasons I have left the Church.


10 posted on 01/16/2011 4:49:36 AM PST by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: marktwain

Guncontrol is one of many social gospel heresies that some parts of the Catholic Church is enamored by.


11 posted on 01/16/2011 4:51:14 AM PST by DarthVader (That which supports Barack Hussein Obama must be sterilized and there are NO exceptions!)
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To: PowderMonkey

That was a real fight!


12 posted on 01/16/2011 4:52:41 AM PST by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confucius)
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To: marktwain

Jesus said sell your Mp4 player and get an assault rifle.


13 posted on 01/16/2011 4:55:04 AM PST by Leisler (They always lie, and have for so much and for so long, that they no longer know what about.http://ma)
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To: marktwain

EVERY church is run by men that are flawed.


14 posted on 01/16/2011 4:55:45 AM PST by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: marktwain
Two words.....Philip Hannan. Book "The Archbishop Wore Combat Boots". Not all bishops think that way.

The is typical "leftist-think" from the European semi-socialist and full socialists who inhabit the middle bureaucracy of the Vatican.

The error in their logic is that they assume that "the state" (i.e. has a functioning army, police force and court system) systems actually work effectively.

This is the same as the erroneous thinking in the Catechism justifying current Church efforts to eliminate the death penalty...which assumes that society actually has mechanisms THAT WORK to protect society from a murderer. I have seen NO evidence that that is true.

The ONLY way, other than the death penalty, to fully protect members of society is a sentence of life imprisonment WITHOUT PAROLE IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT (prison guards are in danger, too).

15 posted on 01/16/2011 4:57:28 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Dr. Sivana
"None of the documents mentioned, especially the USSCB docs, have any real authority. The Church has no offical, binding doctrine or dogma discouraging or prohibiting gun ownership."

It does on the use/elimination of the death penalty, which has the same logical disconnect as displayed above.

16 posted on 01/16/2011 4:59:10 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: marktwain

Render unto Ceasar those things which are Ceasars’, and render unto God those things which are Gods’. In other words, civilian carry is none is the Churchs’ G.D. business.


17 posted on 01/16/2011 5:04:59 AM PST by NurdlyPeon (Sarah Palin: America's last, best hope for survival.)
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To: Lazamataz

Laz, He also said:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (Matthew 5:39-42)

I always have trouble with this one. I guess I’ll just be a sinner, because I think I’d be fighting back if some one smacked my right cheek, unless she was good looking!


18 posted on 01/16/2011 5:08:18 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
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To: marktwain
Perhaps freedom loving Freepers of the Catholic faith would care to refudiate this article.

You mean 'repudiate' right?

19 posted on 01/16/2011 5:12:09 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: marktwain
This is one of those points where the Vatican from time to time needs to be reminded that we, as a nation that neither establishes nor prohibits free practice of religion, are not bound to follow a matter that is not inherently rooted in the Natural Law.

Likewise, this is a point where American Catholics can and MUST remind the Pontifical Council for Peace and Justice that the difference in the structure and operation of our Government per the Constitution demands that we continue to have the ability to exercise the 2nd Amendment.

The European mindset on firearms is poisoned (no, that isn't too strong a word) because of two World Wars and two generations of threat from the Soviets... they fail to see how a well-armed public can be a positive thing - in spite of the fact that those totalitarian regimes (particularly Hitler) feared the possibility of an armed public so much that they seized all firearms.

From some conversations that I've had with some Europeans (I've been in Rome a year and a half) they see Americans as "cowboys" whose gun use is out of control -- because that's what their media feeds them.

Now... as far as the USCCB goes - they really ought know better. However, the documents both cited are getting a little old. It might be worth putting some pressure on the bishops if this becomes a more frequent talking point - pressure on individual bishops has affected other things to our advantage such as the beginning of the reform of the CCHD.

20 posted on 01/16/2011 5:14:52 AM PST by GCC Catholic (Conservative, Pro-Life, Pro-2nd Amendment Catholic Seminarian)
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To: Lazamataz

They defy a lot of teachings Lazamataz, that being one of the least of them. I pray my catholic brothers and sisters wake up before it’s too late.


21 posted on 01/16/2011 5:15:38 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: marktwain

Eliminate SIN and then you can eliminate guns. I have NEVER heard a priest or bishop speak on gun control.


22 posted on 01/16/2011 5:18:11 AM PST by NewCenturions
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To: marktwain
We need to learn how to live in harmony with the lions, the bears, the alligators and the wolves.


23 posted on 01/16/2011 5:21:35 AM PST by Sooth2222 ("Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself." M.Twain)
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To: marktwain

Perhaps freedom loving Freepers of the Catholic faith would care to refudiate this article.” ________________________

The critics predisposed conclusions on this matter is like a guy trying to opine on calculus having failed or never taken basic arithmetic.

A no brainer. First of all a committee styled opinion remarking that “....the Church ....opposes firearms for civilians.....” is certainly not the voice of the Church. The sources cited and the committee style group of individuals alone are speaking. This blurb does NOT qualify as the Church speaking. These are hardly a rule of faith, a Church teaching, or any other caricatured and framed pronouncement one might wish to pin on the Church.

The fact is that the Church speaks only when the Holy Father speaks, and only then when he speaks Ex Cathedra, and only then when he speaks on matters of Faith and Morals alone, and only then when it undergirds the Truths of the Christian faith, which have been and are now well known to all the faithful for over 2 thousand years.

ps:
To judge “the Church” by the standards of former Catholics, non-practicing Catholics and anti-Catholics of the US is a stupendous error, laughable to traditional Catholics. The Church has certainly NOT spoken on your local gun laws.


24 posted on 01/16/2011 5:23:18 AM PST by RitaOK
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To: Lazamataz

All this “peacemaker” talk makes me think of Sam Colt’s version.


25 posted on 01/16/2011 5:25:34 AM PST by Delta 21 (If you cant tell if I'm being sarcastic...maybe I'm not.)
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To: Wonder Warthog; BlackElk
It does on the use/elimination of the death penalty, which has the same logical disconnect as displayed above.

Actually, the prudential judgment that modern prisons can adequately protect the public (mentioned in the Catechism) is beyond the Church's competence, as the security of a modern prison is not a matter of faith and morals. In any event, the Catechism of the Catholic Church allows for the death penalty for the self defense of a society, and its use should be "rare." Questions of what is an adequate safeguard against a bad verdict is also a prudential judgment outside the Church's competence.

Texas has probably executed under 500 people over the last 35 years. Texas has over 20 million people. That sounds pretty rare to me.

There may come a time when governments are so disordered in their judgments that executions will be used against heroic and innocent people, as they were in the Soviet Union and still are in Red China. If that is to be the case, rare might not be such a bad thing.

The Church has actually been pro-death penalty if you take the totality of Church documents from the beginning. Chesterton certainly wrote in favor of it and against pacifism with no censure. That is why there could never be an absolute prohibition. The Church is against the direct taking of INNOCENT human life.
26 posted on 01/16/2011 5:28:16 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
“You mean ‘repudiate’ right?”

No, I deliberately used Sarah Palin’s new word.

A combination of refute and repudiate seemed appropriate.

27 posted on 01/16/2011 5:30:20 AM PST by marktwain
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To: PowderMonkey

And sometimes, overt political correctness, too. During my Catholic school days (when I was really young in elementary school), we were subjected to speech control in the form of parents who had diabetic kids in the school actually being allowed to speak in front of the class and demand that we not call their kids “diabetics,” but, rather, people “with diabetes!”


28 posted on 01/16/2011 5:33:33 AM PST by Suvroc10
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To: RitaOK

Thank you for your reasoned response. I have supported the efforts by Catholics to have St. Gabriel Possenti made the patron saint of handguners. It may yet happen.

http://www.gunsaint.com/


29 posted on 01/16/2011 5:35:38 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Mark 22:36:

"and now he said unto them, but now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none,let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword."

I don't know how you interpret this, but sounds an awful lot like Jesus not being adverse to weapons for self defense, as opposed to offensive reasons.

CC

30 posted on 01/16/2011 5:38:37 AM PST by Celtic Conservative (Good heavens Miss Takamoto, You're beautiful!)
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To: Bulwyf

Not much chance of that. The CC is the best brainwashing unit on Earth.


31 posted on 01/16/2011 5:39:18 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (V for Vendetta.)
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To: marktwain
Thank you for your reasoned response. I have supported the efforts by Catholics to have St. Gabriel Possenti made the patron saint of handguners. It may yet happen.

Thank you for working toward this; I'm familiar with St. Gabriel but not with the website... heading there now.

32 posted on 01/16/2011 5:41:57 AM PST by GCC Catholic (Conservative, Pro-Life, Pro-2nd Amendment Catholic Seminarian)
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To: Celtic Conservative
um, luke 22:36

To coin a phrase, "mea culpa"

I Shoulda' scanned the page first, Laz, didn't see your post until after I hit the submit button.

CC

33 posted on 01/16/2011 5:44:41 AM PST by Celtic Conservative (Good heavens Miss Takamoto, You're beautiful!)
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To: marktwain
The answer is resoundingly clear: Firearms in the hands of civilians should be strictly limited and eventually completely eliminated.

There is nothing like this in the Bible. Even Jesus' disciples were commanded to be armed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Perhaps Marxism has now infiltrated the highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy? At my church, on the other hand, we carry every Sunday.

34 posted on 01/16/2011 5:46:35 AM PST by backwoods-engineer (The future? Imagine Cass Sunstein's boot stamping on Lincoln's beard, forever.)
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To: backwoods-engineer
Perhaps Marxism has now infiltrated the highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy?

Not Marxism... It can be attributed simply to political correctness on our side of the pond, and irrational fear of weapons (due to three+ generations of war) or the other. See my post upthread.

35 posted on 01/16/2011 5:50:12 AM PST by GCC Catholic (Conservative, Pro-Life, Pro-2nd Amendment Catholic Seminarian)
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To: Celtic Conservative
And if the RC church don't like that scripture, they're gonna go apes**t over the 144th psalm:

"blessed be Jehovah, My rock, who teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"

CC

36 posted on 01/16/2011 5:52:39 AM PST by Celtic Conservative (Good heavens Miss Takamoto, You're beautiful!)
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To: Lazamataz
So, the Pope and the Catholics now defy Jesus’ teachings?

They've been doing that for centuries.

37 posted on 01/16/2011 5:57:28 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Celtic Conservative
The Disciples were armed (The Gospels explain) It was Peter's sword that cut off the ear of the soldier.
38 posted on 01/16/2011 5:58:57 AM PST by vortec94
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To: RitaOK

So you’re say that the US Conference of Bishops isnt part of the Catholic Church?


39 posted on 01/16/2011 6:08:10 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Dr. Sivana
"Actually, the prudential judgment that modern prisons can adequately protect the public (mentioned in the Catechism) is beyond the Church's competence, as the security of a modern prison is not a matter of faith and morals. In any event, the Catechism of the Catholic Church allows for the death penalty for the self defense of a society, and its use should be "rare." Questions of what is an adequate safeguard against a bad verdict is also a prudential judgment outside the Church's competence."

I agree that both of those are beyond the Church's competence, which is why I totally disagree with the effort to eliminate the death penalty, and THIS part of the Catechism's statement:

"Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Said condition simply does not exist in today's world. As I said above, "life imprisonment, without parole, in solitary confinement" is the only TRULY workable alternative to the death penalty, but AFAIK, such a sentence has NEVER, EVER been issued.

There is one other possible alternative, and that is surgical severing of the spine to render the perp a quadraplegic. If he/she can't move arms and legs, then they can do no harm.

BUT, neither of the above possible alternatives to the death penalty prevents the perp from having someone ELSE commit murder (crime bosses). So you need to also eliminate the possibility of outside contact with society.

I don't see any of those alternatives ever being seriously considered.

40 posted on 01/16/2011 6:15:22 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: marktwain
It's the Pope. He's a German. They all believe in the doctrine that gives the state a monopoly on violence.

Well, that worked eh? WWI, WWII ~ set world records in deaths by gunfire.

The Pope ought to stop and think for a moment about that.

41 posted on 01/16/2011 6:18:22 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: marktwain

If “the Church” says this, then “the Church” is mistaken.

What the Catholic Church teaches is found in the Creeds and in solemn teaching documents of Councils and Popes.

News stories are full of things that “the Catholic Church” has “said” or “done,” when the person saying or doing something is a bureaucrat in some diocese, or some Cardinal shooting off his mouth.

The actual Catholic Church teaches both the Principle of Subsidiarity and the Right of Self-Defense. Therefore, the Catholic Church CANNOT teach that citizens should be made helpless before criminals and government.


42 posted on 01/16/2011 6:18:41 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: marktwain

The title should say “Roman Catholic Church”.

We Baptists are armed to the teeth, and we highly encourage others to do so.


43 posted on 01/16/2011 6:19:31 AM PST by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: Lurker

So you’re say that the US Conference of Bishops isnt part of the Catholic Church?” ________________________________

Re-reading my own post, I think it is crystal clear what I said. However, I will give a tip. The answer you seek is in the basic arithmetic.


44 posted on 01/16/2011 6:27:25 AM PST by RitaOK
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To: marktwain

And so the Catholic Church hoists another sail moving it into MORE irrelevance....


45 posted on 01/16/2011 6:28:08 AM PST by Jerrybob
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To: marktwain
Most Catholics in the US vote Democrat. Somehow the agenda does not seem to be an issue for them. But the complete disintegration of the family, 53 million abortions in the U.S. alone, complete secular dominance in Television, uncensored language and soon to be full nudity on prime time airwaves. And the “Church” fails to say anything or make the connection. They are too busy trying to cover up all the Pedophilia among their clergy.

That “Church” is dying and Satan's World is beginning to infiltrate the church leaders. Oh well, so much for “tolerance” and Progressive change.

46 posted on 01/16/2011 6:29:49 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2! (Cause I'm a nutcase....))
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To: muawiyah
I think it unlikely that Pope Benedict XVI would endorse this policy. It is one of the reason that I asked Catholic Freepers to refudiate the article.

I suspect that the article is an attempt by liberal Catholics to make Church doctrine out of their own political biases.

A great many Germans are freedom loving people, it just happens that most of them immigrated to the United States over time. Germans contributed much to Western civilization. If you look at American's ethnic heritage, the greatest single group share German roots.

47 posted on 01/16/2011 6:35:19 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Still, the crowd left behind really do believe in this “state monopoly on violence” doctrine. That’s why it never occurs to them that they should do anything when the authorities go nuts.


48 posted on 01/16/2011 6:40:40 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: marktwain

Alex Murphy, Is that you?

Silly at best.

So the USCCB wants the lion to lay down with the lamb. Good for them. It’s a policy statement on which I, as a good Catholic disagree. It doesn’t make me any less a good Catholic and I would love to have a chance to sit down with the good bishops and argue the point over tea.

So what?


49 posted on 01/16/2011 6:44:04 AM PST by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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quietly opposes firearms for civilians, quietly endorses armed security for high-enough Church officials?


50 posted on 01/16/2011 6:44:24 AM PST by flowerplough (Thomas Sowell: Those who look only at Obama's deeds tend to become Obama's critics.)
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