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It's always easy mentally to look at all issues as either all pros or all cons so life appears simple as black or white, until your white gets slaughtered in the election like 2006 and 2008 and ???. after which sometimes some people wake up and ask questions, the sign of a true subversive.

I do have concerns: That the GOP will stick with the Ryan plan but be unable to defend it, and will put Obama back in office, perhaps with leftist majorities in congress and new Wise Latinas in the SCOTUS eventually. On the other hand, surrender to Obamacare also leads to disaster.

(he made some good points)

I did not mean by that, that everything he said was correct. In fact, Some of his statements were immature, some of them just won't work politically, and most of it was presented as "black and white" as you described.

However, I thought he was correct that without entitlement reform, spending and borrowing continue out of control, and seniors (and everyone else) are going to suffer anyway. Although he certainly could have made a better argument, I think you would agree with that.

RE :”I did not mean by that, that everything he said was correct. In fact, Some of his statements were immature, some of them just won't work politically, and most of it was presented as “black and white” as you described. However, I thought he was correct that without entitlement reform, spending and borrowing continue out of control, and seniors (and everyone else) are going to suffer anyway. Although he certainly could have made a better argument, I think you would agree with that. “

I appreciate you following up and playing Devil's Advocate giving me a chance to debate/answer those points without the childish insults. He obviously is drinking the Koolaid that we are all on the SS Ryan plan ship together and we must defend it using any means required, by saying anything, and make believe what we see is not there, and if we dont we must be the enemy of everything good. Fortunately I havent run into many of those here on this, most were civil and willing to think about stuff.

I remember drinking some Republican Koolaid back under that last president, what-his-name ? I havent seen him in a while, and it tasted pretty bad when I threw it up years later. I have seen this all before, sorry it's so soon again.

So they all take a suicide pack to vote for this bill, then afterward some of the more naive ones realize that this is not as popular as they (apparently) thought it would be . But now they have to live with a vote on a bill that they knew they couldnt get signed into law, especially since its a non-binding resolution.

I saw a Republican house member on Hardball yesterday defending the proposal, he said exact words :” No one over 55 will be affected by it”. So you got a medicare reform deficit reduction bill where only those over 65 get medicare, but he says no-one over 55 will be affected by the bill. Think that will work?

Then you got the defenders like the one I found trying to make the argument that it will help those over 55 not hurt them. They argue that the future senior (potential Republican voter) will be better off even if he has a stroke without a lot of money , and is (hypothetically) thrown out into the street to die, because Obama has such diabolically evil plans for seniors with his deficit reduction medicare death panels that it(not passing this into law) would be much much worse for them. But dont worry, no-one over 55 is affected by the plan so support it if you are in that lucky/unlucky group.

This appears to be their argument, meanwhile Boehner is cooking up a deal with Obama that they have leaked involves medicare. How ya think that will sell?

One thing about Pelosi, she never forced unpopular suicide votes on her members until her party took both the WH and both houses of congress and could get big things passed into law, as she did. What if she made them all vote for Obama-care in mid 2007?