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Top Agency Officials Knew of Disputed Gun Program
nytimes.com ^ | Published: June 15, 2011 | SEAN COLLINS WALSH

Posted on 06/16/2011 5:13:53 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

WASHINGTON — Knowledge of Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial border security strategy that allowed guns to be shipped illegally into Mexico in an effort to track them to drug cartels, went to the top of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, according to evidence released on Wednesday at a House Oversight Committee hearing.

Witnesses at the House hearing included three relatives of a Border Patrol agent killed in Arizona and three A.T.F. agents, right.

The operation, which began in 2009, came under fire after two guns linked to it were found at the scene of the killing of an American Border Patrol agent, Brian A. Terry, in Arizona in 2010. Members of Mr. Terry’s family testified at the hearing.

The acting director of A.T.F., Kenneth E. Melson, and his acting deputy, William J. Hoover, were “keenly interested” in the operation and received weekly updates on its progress, according to internal e-mails released for the first time by the Oversight Committee’s chairman, Darrell Issa, Republican of California.

At the hearing, Republicans pressed a Justice Department witness as to who else in Washington authorized the operation or was aware of it.

The witness, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich, said releasing some of the documents that the committee sought would jeopardize continuing prosecutions.

At one point, Mr. Issa held up an entirely redacted page from evidence submitted by the department and chided Mr. Weich for the department’s response to a subpoena.

“How dare you make an opening statement of cooperation!” Mr. Issa shouted at Mr. Weich. “You’ve given us black paper.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: abovethelaw; atf; banglist; batf; bho44; border; dnc4terrorists; dncabovethelaw; dncpeople; dnctreason; fastandfuriousgate; fastnfuriousgateag; hearings; holder; holderlaw; holderlied; holderspeople; holdervsamerica; impeachobama; issa; obama; obamalaw; obamaspeople; obamavsamerica; treason
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1 posted on 06/16/2011 5:13:57 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Defund the BATFE.


2 posted on 06/16/2011 5:14:47 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
“How dare you make an opening statement of cooperation!” Mr. Issa shouted at Mr. Weich. “You’ve given us black paper.”

Good for him.

3 posted on 06/16/2011 5:17:28 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
I sound him hold up not just blank papers but papers that were entirely "blacked".

This has to go back to Holder and Obama. It's just to big.

4 posted on 06/16/2011 5:18:16 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Paladin2

TWO FACTS REMAIN at this stage AG Holder and the Assistant AG both are stonewalling and saying I DON’T KNOW

June 15, 2011 Hearing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wfN_wenulE

Issa Grills Attorney General Holder on Operation Fast & Furious and Project Gunrunner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NqH88cSBqI


5 posted on 06/16/2011 5:22:40 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Sacajaweau

Interesting article. very interesting. the Times states unequivokally that the top people in BATFE knew all about it, but are we to assume that they didn’t run this by the DOJ? Of course they did..it’s just a questio of if Issa can show it goes all the way to Holdr, or there will be a cut-out, a fall guy, to take the blame.


6 posted on 06/16/2011 5:24:44 AM PDT by ken5050 (Save the Earth..It's the only planet with chocolate!!!)
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To: ken5050

we are beyond your scenario....the question is, will holder and napalitano BOTH be willing to fall on the sword for fubo......


7 posted on 06/16/2011 5:28:55 AM PDT by joe fonebone (Project Gunwalker, this will make watergate look like the warm up band......)
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To: Fido969
UPDATED BREAKING NEWS

ATF Agent Expresses Fear that DOJ Inspector General has a Conflict of Interest in “Fast and Furious” Probe

RELATED VIDEO

8 posted on 06/16/2011 5:33:13 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: ken5050
From the news last time, it looks like Holder's assistant at least is gonna get the hook. Congress may actually get this right. I hope so....people died.

This operation had to be "big"...I think it was to be proof that Obama was doing something about the border.

9 posted on 06/16/2011 5:33:41 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: joe fonebone

I understand what you’re saying, and where you’re going, but there is no way that TWO Cabinet secs walk the plank without it blowing back to the WH


10 posted on 06/16/2011 5:34:29 AM PDT by ken5050 (Save the Earth..It's the only planet with chocolate!!!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

First, we should refer to this program as “Fast & Furious”, not Gun Runner.

Gun Runner goes back to the Bush years and this administration (and media) have a nice way of twisting things to blame everything on Bush.

By focusing on “Fast & Furious”, it is clear that the program was started in 2009 under Obama.

The NY Times article just stops short of clearly explaining why agents questioned the program from the beginning. I think they could have been clearer that once the firearms left the store, they were incapable of being tracked except at a crime scene.

It would be like poisoning the marijuana supply in order to track the dealers.


11 posted on 06/16/2011 5:37:35 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: ken5050

Also: At the end of yesterdays testimony the Assistant AG SLIPPED UP BIG TIME. Issa wanted him to provide a list of names of who at DOJ authored a Jan.2010 document which is a direct lie; proven yesterday. The Assistant AG said the Executive Branch has to be notified and or it was unclear if he said they authored it.

Would any attorneys please watch the testimony and comment.


12 posted on 06/16/2011 5:37:43 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Erik Latranyi

FastandFuriousGate


13 posted on 06/16/2011 5:39:01 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

ranking Democrat, apologized to Mr. Weich for Mr. Issa’s hostility. “You don’t deserve that,” Mr. Cummings, said, adding that the committee needed to uphold “a certain level of integrity.”

That’s odd coming from the party that doesn’t know the meaning of “integrity”.


14 posted on 06/16/2011 5:43:08 AM PDT by G Larry (I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character)
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To: ken5050

As well as there are a lot of people at this very moment very high in these agencies that should (at the very least) not have jobs. The Assistant AG could not even answer that the DOJ even knew if this ludicrous operation was still underway!
Immunity can be offered to higher ups in gov departments.


15 posted on 06/16/2011 5:44:20 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Fido969

Weich is the greasiest lawyer I have seen in quite some time. He obviously was picked for his job because he knows how to avoid answering a direct question. For someone who represents the Department of Justice before Congress, he comes across as the quintessential shyster lawyer.


16 posted on 06/16/2011 5:48:22 AM PDT by Melchior
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Lets remember this whole mess would still be under a rock with its cockroaches if it hadn’t been for someone in LE getting offed as a result. Little People wouldn’t have counted. At a minimum the ATF needs to be put on a short lead. The right thing to do tho is completely disband them. In the end gun walker/fast and furious was all about giving guns to criminals so the law abiding could be disarmed. All this courtesy of the fed govt! Someones need to go to jail for a long long time b/c of it.


17 posted on 06/16/2011 5:48:37 AM PDT by 556x45
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To: joe fonebone
DHS Chief Napolitano says she was not aware of agency's link to ATF "gun running"

Holder:Fast and Furious

Obama-Fast and Furious

Obama,Holder and Napolitano all claim they know nothing.

18 posted on 06/16/2011 5:54:49 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: 556x45

The crucial point is: It is a no brainer that the agencies were obeying orders from the AG and POTUS Admin. Whether Obama and Holder want to play dumb or not: No same individual thinks they knew nothing about this.Logic prevails... this big of an operation (rogue or not) does not happen without them knowing it.They are at the end of the responsibility stick PERIOD. Enough whistle blower agents had the courage to speak out. Research the news from 09-10 Obama had one agenda other than golfing and constant campaigning-Mexican Drug lords buying AK’s at US gun shows therefore he wanted gun legislation passed.

Do people realize people died, federal laws were broken ALL for a democratic/Obama political policy of anti-gun gun grabbing? It has come out that when the Az. shooting happened ALL of them crapped their pants wondering if it was one of their rogue guns.


19 posted on 06/16/2011 6:06:55 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

Implausible Deniability.


20 posted on 06/16/2011 6:21:59 AM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!; Sacajaweau

I watched a good part of the hearing yesterday, and what was really surprising was how listless the Dems seemed to be. Normally, the committee is VERY partisan, but the Dems hardly tried to defend the AAG testifying, the BATFE, or the DOJ. The ranking member, Cummings, usually a real gutter fighter, kept trying the meme that the committee hearings ( by divulging info) could get people killed..he actually said that he “was very concerned about people gettign killed, because where he lives, people get killed every day.” Really, he said it..is he tryign for street creds, perhaps. I got the feeling that the Dems know that this is NOT gonna end well for the DOJ, Holder, and Obama, and they aren’t gonna waste their ammo playing defense for them.


21 posted on 06/16/2011 6:22:29 AM PDT by ken5050 (Save the Earth..It's the only planet with chocolate!!!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!; Clint N. Suhks; sneakers; prisoner6; rightwingintelligentsia
Gotta love the NY Slimes:

"Because it is extraordinarily difficult for American authorities to prosecute criminals in Mexico, lawmakers and A.T.F. witnesses questioned the rationale of the Fast and Furious strategy."

"Extraordinarily difficult for American authorities to prosecute criminals in Mexico? "

extraordinarily difficult?

difficult?

How about the US has NO power to prosecute in other nations!

22 posted on 06/16/2011 6:22:56 AM PDT by HonestConservative (http://www.freedomradiorocks.com Boehner must go)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

the problem is, 2 days after the shooting, nap flew there.....the question is, why?


23 posted on 06/16/2011 6:23:18 AM PDT by joe fonebone (Project Gunwalker, this will make watergate look like the warm up band......)
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To: Sacajaweau

Variant of the old line “start with a block of marble and remove everything that doesn’t look like a statue”? as in “the information you want is right there, just ignore the ink that isn’t part of it!”


24 posted on 06/16/2011 6:24:31 AM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
"Mr. Issa shouted at Mr. Weich. “You’ve given us black paper.”

What is Issa's problem with black paper? Sounds like some kind of racist to me.

< /sarc>

25 posted on 06/16/2011 6:27:54 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
26 posted on 06/16/2011 6:44:10 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“they were incapable of being tracked except at a crime scene.”

I seem to recall reading that, during the Bush years, the guns had tracking devices built into the stocks, and that the guns weren’t allowed to cross the Border.
Also, this shouldn’t just be about the Border Patrol Agent’s death. How many deaths in Mezzico were caused by this “program?”


27 posted on 06/16/2011 6:50:04 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!

I have a decent size firearms collection that continues to grow for some reason. At no time, for any of the firearms that I have purchased, was I ever asked WHY I wanted to buy it. The fact that today, there are still politicians that don’t know or knowingly lie about simple things like that is yet another reason the country is in so much trouble. As for McCarthy, she got elected due to what happened to her husband and son a long time ago. From that point on she instantly became an expert on every aspect of guns, legal or illegal. However, she is totally clueless. Somewhere on the internet is an exchange between her and a reporter, where he asked her about ‘barrel shrouds’. It was her legislation and she had absolutely no clue what it/they were, except to say that it would reduce gang violence. Pray for America.


28 posted on 06/16/2011 6:53:30 AM PDT by qaz123
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To: G Larry

Mr. Cummings tried to deflect, change the focus, and stonewall the hearings. He’s a shill for the administration and is helping the BATFE in this matter.

He’s also not very good at it. Gun control zealots are feeling the pressure. It must suck to realize that you’re no better than the Black Panthers or the KKK.


29 posted on 06/16/2011 7:08:51 AM PDT by BCR #226 (02/07 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
I seem to recall reading that, during the Bush years, the guns had tracking devices built into the stocks, and that the guns weren’t allowed to cross the Border. Also, this shouldn’t just be about the Border Patrol Agent’s death. How many deaths in Mezzico were caused by this “program?”

According to some sources, as many as 150 Mexican citizens have lost their lives to these weapons.

Secondly, they could not have tracking devices because the sales were directly from stores where the owners were directed by the BATFE to proceed with the sale even though the store owner suspected these were straw purchases.

In other words, the BATFE allowed these sales to go through without being on the premises. There was no chance to arrest these guys or to plant tracking devices in the firearms.

30 posted on 06/16/2011 7:09:07 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: qaz123

Pray for America is right. Are people not calling for Holder’s resignation because they have before and he does not listen and thinks he is like Obama above all or are they waiting to get him on contempt?

Watch the news for a lot of people to be fired and the Holder will say the issue is closed. The family of Brian Terry were promised all those involved will be held accountable.


31 posted on 06/16/2011 7:11:24 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Sacajaweau
"This operation had to be "big"...I think it was to be proof that Obama was doing something about the border."

Bigger. This was intended to set up the background for a full scale assault on the Second Amendment...probably via the treaty process.

32 posted on 06/16/2011 7:44:31 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Joe Brower

I’ll bet Boohoo (it’s all GWB’s fault) 0bama know about this illegal and stupid deal!


33 posted on 06/16/2011 7:46:00 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: Wonder Warthog

Remember it being reported that there was a specialmedia set up to counter all anti-Obama stories? MediaMatters sponsored by Soro’s is denying this was about political gun laws SO WE NOW KNOW THAT IT IS.


34 posted on 06/16/2011 7:58:59 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: blackie
Issa Releases Documents Showing Intimate Involvement of ATF Director in Controversial Gunwalking Operation
35 posted on 06/16/2011 8:05:21 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Erik Latranyi
First, we should refer to this program as “Fast & Furious"

I like to call it "Operation Slow & Oblivious"

36 posted on 06/16/2011 8:29:19 AM PDT by delphirogatio (I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Erik,
I’ve been looking since you posted an hour ago. Read this article;

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Issa-Cummings-gunrunner-ATF/2011/04/21/id/393710

“When the ATF’s Project Gunrunner began in 2005 under the Bush administration, the agency didn’t allow guns to be taken over the border into Mexico.”

Still looking for info on tracking devices in stocks. Know I read that here a few days ago.


37 posted on 06/16/2011 8:29:41 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
“When the ATF’s Project Gunrunner began in 2005 under the Bush administration, the agency didn’t allow guns to be taken over the border into Mexico.”

I know this. The is why if we refer to it as Gunrunner, people doing internet searches will see it was started by Bush and stop right there.

By referring to the program as Fast & Furious, it nails Obama.

38 posted on 06/16/2011 8:37:31 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Here’s an “interesting site;
http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2011/06/project-gunrunner-what-it-really-was.html


39 posted on 06/16/2011 8:37:52 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

The project began during the Bush administration in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 as a trial, morphing into a national program in 2006. The guns were sold and tracked electronically, giving law enforcement agents valuable intelligence on where the weapons went and who had them.

During the Bush years, no guns were allowed to cross the border into Mexico. When President Obama took office in 2009, things changed. Obama’s ATF continued Project Gunrunner, but made a crucial decision to allow guns to be “walked” into Mexico, eventually ending up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

The results, in at least one instance, were tragic. Two AK-47s ATF officials were tracking were found at the scene of U.S. border agent Brian Terry’s murder.


40 posted on 06/16/2011 8:52:39 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“By referring to the program as Fast & Furious, it nails Obama.”

Abdo-lutely Erik! I just wanted to make the point clear that Bush did not allow guns to cross the Border. A very important distinction. Also see Post #40.
Best,
Bogie


41 posted on 06/16/2011 9:03:24 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: 556x45

They would have used this to further restrict military-designed weapons from civilians. They would use the National Guard as precedence as the militia in order to finally ban and confiscate all firearms owned by Americans.


42 posted on 06/16/2011 9:09:02 AM PDT by wastedyears (SEAL SIX makes me proud to have been playing SOCOM since 2003.)
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To: wastedyears
Exactly and mediamatters dot com is denying it all. So it is the truth.No one heard of this a few days ago and go search “Fast and Furious” it has hit the news and Obama can't deny he didn't know anything about this nor ordered it; muchless Holder. Holder has already been called. Will Issa call him again?
Holder can't say Obama did not approve or order this.Imagine Holder getting immunity... I know the Chicago way never gets caught and all under go under the bus but this one is gonna be tough for Obama to escape.
43 posted on 06/16/2011 9:18:23 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

Fast and Furious and AG Eric Holder Stepping down will be the next most searchable words in the news. Obama will think it all goes away. It won’t.


44 posted on 06/16/2011 9:25:16 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Allen West 2012 Make it happen!)
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To: qaz123

“.......At no time, for any of the firearms that I have purchased, was I ever asked WHY I wanted to buy it.”

Interesting. Every firearm I have purchased, or my wife has purchased we were asked why.

Mainly the dealer was seemingly curious as to help us choose the type of weapon.

Was it for home defense?
Was it for “plinking” at the range?
Was it for hunting, and what type of hunting?

That sort of thing.

NOT ONE single weapon was bought without those questions being asked.

Maybe it’s a California Gun Dealer thing.


45 posted on 06/16/2011 10:09:58 AM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: qaz123

That’s when it becomes obvious that they don’t write their own Bills.


46 posted on 06/16/2011 12:05:11 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2732811/posts?page=2#2


47 posted on 06/16/2011 12:19:37 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are...)
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To: B4Ranch

Thanks!


48 posted on 06/16/2011 12:52:19 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Erik, another FReeper just alerted me to this;

“Story on foxnews yesterday included a detail that the ATF inserted GPS tracking devices in these guns before the sale.”
Best,
Bogie


49 posted on 06/16/2011 12:54:21 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
“Story on foxnews yesterday included a detail that the ATF inserted GPS tracking devices in these guns before the sale.”

I'm wondering if that was the policy for Gun Runner and not for Fast & Furious.

This is precisely what I was warning about in my original post......they will confuse the issue so it becomes "too complex" for the public to follow it.

50 posted on 06/16/2011 1:06:24 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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