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Vatican stunned by Irish embassy closure
Reuters ^ | November 4, 2011 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 11/04/2011 7:02:26 AM PDT by decimon

Catholic Ireland's stunning decision to close its embassy to the Vatican is a huge blow to the Holy See's prestige and may be followed by other countries which feel the missions are too expensive, diplomatic sources said on Friday.

The closure brought relations between Ireland and the Vatican, once ironclad allies, to an all-time low following the row earlier this year over the Irish Church's handling of sex abuse cases and accusations that the Vatican had encouraged secrecy.

Ireland will now be the only major country of ancient Catholic tradition without an embassy in the Vatican.

"This is really bad for the Vatican because Ireland is the first big Catholic country to do this and because of what Catholicism means in Irish history," said a Vatican diplomatic source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholic; diplomacy; ireland; romancatholicism; vatican
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1 posted on 11/04/2011 7:02:28 AM PDT by decimon
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To: decimon

WEIRD


2 posted on 11/04/2011 7:09:23 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: decimon

Good move on the part of Ireland.


3 posted on 11/04/2011 7:09:42 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: All


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4 posted on 11/04/2011 7:10:22 AM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: decimon

Sadly, it seems to take many, many whacks between the eyeballs with a 2 by 4 to deliver a message to the Vatican.


5 posted on 11/04/2011 7:13:31 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: decimon

Ireland is broke. The Vatican has wealth uncounted.

If having an Irish consulate is so important to the “Holy See”, then maybe they should pay for it.


6 posted on 11/04/2011 7:16:51 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: MrEdd

Yep. The sex scandal, and it’s institutionalized coverup has been the biggest blow to the Catholic Church in a long time.

“Do as I say and not as I do”, doesn’t go over too well for parents nor other authority figures. But when it’s coming from God’s representatives on Earth? It’s unconscionable.


7 posted on 11/04/2011 7:16:53 AM PDT by SengirV
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To: MrEdd

yes. The socialists and communists win. Nice support for the socialists from the “get them Caflix” bunch.


8 posted on 11/04/2011 7:21:15 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: SengirV

as Dennis Miller describes it when he enters the confessional.....”You first!”


9 posted on 11/04/2011 7:22:45 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: decimon

This won’t last long. Over the last 200 years nearly every ‘Catholic’ country in the world has cut its ties to the Vatican at one time or another—France, Spain, Mexico even Italy! Usually they were forced to reverse their decision as their national interst began to suffer. Like it or not the Catholic Church is the largest and most global religion in the world. This severence usually occured at he time of the ascendency of a bitterly ant-Christain cabal, dominating politics by fraud and stealth and in partcular dominating media and academia. This is currently the case in Ireland, when the main national newspaper, the Irish Times is run by, and its main feature writer are extreme Left-wing loons. The National Broadcasting Service, RTE (think NPR only worse) has been dominated by the Marxist wing of Sinn Fein foe decades. The princial mission of all these forces (as in the US is the destruction of the Family and the destruction of Christianity and the substitution of their own totlitarian project. One major tactic they use is to front ‘moderates’ to disguise their agenda. Thus on national television, well know Irish Broadcaters like Gay Byrne have been the unknowing ‘useful idiots’, while in politics that role was taken by the 1980s Prime Minister Garret Fitzgerald. These are sad days for the Church in Ireland, but things have been worse in the past.


10 posted on 11/04/2011 7:26:08 AM PDT by Emerson C
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To: Cronos
So we can put Cronos down as asserting that only Socialists and Communists would insist that pedophiles be incarcerated to protect children and that nobody gets a pass for their position.

Have you taken this view of yours up with the site owner?

11 posted on 11/04/2011 7:30:55 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Nervous Tick
The Vatican has wealth uncounted.

Spiritual riches have no cash value. The Holy See gets by on a very tight budget, if you care to know the truth.

12 posted on 11/04/2011 7:31:46 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: decimon

perhaps somebody can find a link to another article to get an accurate report on this matter. Pullella articles are 80% fiction.


13 posted on 11/04/2011 7:36:06 AM PDT by campaignPete R-CT (I will go back to New Hampshire to campaign.)
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To: Romulus

most of the ‘wealth’ is in art and buildings that don’t have
a ready market. they’ll never sell the Sistine Chapel.

they might make money by making their secret archives available to researchers though.


14 posted on 11/04/2011 7:41:21 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: campaignPete R-CT

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Catholic-Church-leaders-slam-decision-to-close-Irelands-Vatican-Embassy-133226173.html


15 posted on 11/04/2011 7:44:20 AM PDT by decimon
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To: Romulus

>> The Holy See gets by on a very tight budget

Yes, I’m sure various accounting tricks are used to make the budget seem tight for that “department”.

You and I both know how much wealth is stored up in the catholic church though. To pretend otherwise is highly disingenuous.


16 posted on 11/04/2011 7:44:42 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: RitchieAprile

Even if Holy Mother Church were to liquidate all of her assests today, the funds would be negligible and wouldn’t last much longer than a few days.


17 posted on 11/04/2011 7:46:45 AM PDT by Ax
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To: SengirV

The decision in the 1960s to allow homosexuals into the priesthood is what is at the root of all this.. good intentions, let them in if not practicing.. this allowed Satan directly into the church... and sadly now these folks are in positions of power to protect one another.


18 posted on 11/04/2011 7:46:59 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: RitchieAprile

Oooo, the SECRET ARCHIVES...

Do you not know that the Secret Archives are routinely open to credentialed scholars, as they have been for many years? It is not that different from using the Library of Congress or any other scholarly collection.


19 posted on 11/04/2011 7:48:37 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Nervous Tick
You and I both know how much wealth is stored up in the catholic church though.

Since you know for a fact the sum total, how about providing the verifiable amount?

20 posted on 11/04/2011 7:49:14 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: MrEdd

Ah, jumping to conclusions again — read the article: it’s about a socialist government trying to divert attention from itself. Now, the “bash-em Caflix” are joining with the socialists and communists — congratulations!


21 posted on 11/04/2011 7:50:02 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: Nervous Tick

Sorry, but you are grossly misinformed.

Their budgets aren’t done for tax purposes, etc etc..

The vatican sits on wealth of generations in terms of its real estate and artifacts, but its budget is hardly large considering the scope and scale of the Church’s works.

I know it won’t stop the catholic bashing that is prevalent here, but facts never matter to the bigot.


22 posted on 11/04/2011 7:50:03 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Let’s not get all semantic, ‘K? Cut the crap. The wealth under the direct control of the catholics is in the hundreds of billions, if not low trillions.


23 posted on 11/04/2011 7:51:16 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick; Romulus
Tick -- just google the budget and you'll see that your statement You and I both know how much wealth is stored up in the catholic church though. To pretend otherwise is highly disingenuous. is incorrect -- firstly the budget is about $200 million odd IIRC. Secondly -- if you are talking about the "wealth" being the art stored there, then that is art that would not be sold but is there for people to visit and see -- would one have the sistine chapel cut into bits and sold?
24 posted on 11/04/2011 7:52:06 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: RitchieAprile
Researches have access to the “super-duper secret vault”. All a person needs is to present your academic credentials (Or pursuits in case you are still in higher education) and scholarly thesis for review, then your “in”.
25 posted on 11/04/2011 7:53:20 AM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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To: Nervous Tick; Romulus; A.A. Cunningham
Tick -- just google the budget and you'll see that your statement You and I both know how much wealth is stored up in the catholic church though. To pretend otherwise is highly disingenuous. is incorrect -- firstly the budget is about $200 million odd IIRC. Secondly -- if you are talking about the "wealth" being the art stored there, then that is art that would not be sold but is there for people to visit and see -- would one have the sistine chapel cut into bits and sold?

Then Tick says The wealth under the direct control of the catholics is in the hundreds of billions, if not low trillions. -- oh, so now you mean all Catholics? First you said the Vatican, then the Catholic Church and now all Catholics -- is that what you mean?

26 posted on 11/04/2011 7:53:40 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: HamiltonJay

>> facts never matter to the bigot

I’m not a bigot. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” The only thing I’ll say from a Christian perspective is catholics do *not* have a lock on eternal salvation like they think they do. Otherwise, your eternal reward is not for me to judge.

But the Vatican crying “poor us” is laughable. If you consider pointing that out to be bigotry, then I’ll have to call you a naive partisan in reply.


27 posted on 11/04/2011 7:54:38 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Romulus

What credentials would such a scholar have?
A recommendation from their local bishop?


28 posted on 11/04/2011 7:54:56 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: Cronos

Convince me that the vatican doesn’t have access to as much of that catholic wealth as they might ever need.


29 posted on 11/04/2011 7:55:48 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick
You don't know jack.

The "Holy See's Consolidated Financial Statements for the fiscal year 2010" reports a total income of 245.2 million Euros and total costs of 235.3 million, resulting in a surplus of almost 10 million Euros. This is a positive result, especially compared to the previous two budgets: in 2009, with a loss of 4.1 million and in 2008, with a loss of 911 thousand Euros.

30 posted on 11/04/2011 7:56:36 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus

>> You don’t know jack.

And you may have fooled yourself, but you aren’t fooling me.


31 posted on 11/04/2011 7:59:22 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: RitchieAprile

Academic or journalistic credentials — the kind you get from being a scholar at a real institution of higher learning, or a journalist affiliated with any organization anyone’s ever heard of. You don’t need a letter from your bishop any more than you’d need it at the Library of Congress. Do I need to add that you don’t need to be Catholic, Christian, or anything at all? It’s a scholarly institution, friend. Try to understand what that means.

I know know you want to make Secret Archives out to be a private club where inside-connected Catholics get to snoop through the juicy files — for a friendly contribution, of course. You need to get over this ignorant bigotry.


32 posted on 11/04/2011 8:03:22 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Nervous Tick

Put up or shut up.


33 posted on 11/04/2011 8:04:06 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus

You are correct. A majority of the Church’s material wealth is the priceless art and artifacts in their possession. The Church is going cash broke just like the rest of us..


34 posted on 11/04/2011 8:04:53 AM PDT by cardinal4 (Pujols/Freese 2012)
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To: Romulus

I did. Read for meaning.


35 posted on 11/04/2011 8:07:31 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick

I think to burden of proof is on you, as one can not prove a negative. Were the Church, or Pope for that matter, to have access to untold wealth, what have they done with it? Or, what would they do with it?


36 posted on 11/04/2011 8:08:50 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Nervous Tick

You know something? The US government has uncounted wealth also. They could sell all that useless junk the Smithsonian is warehousing. The site of the Washington Monument (already damaged) has plenty of space for some nice office buildings (do you know how high class A rents are in the District?). And don’t you think Arlington cemetery could be redeveloped into some first class luxury apartments, retail, and destination restaurants? Tick, your insights have so much potential!


37 posted on 11/04/2011 8:16:06 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Nervous Tick; Campion; Romulus
Simply put, they don't. Reasons range from the fact that no country is going to allow national treasures like art to be sold out of the country to the plain fact that unfortunately each country's diocese runs itself -- which is why the German one, for example, can regularly defy the Vatican on non-doctrinal issues (as did the Irish).

Your posts was saying that the trillion$$ owned by Catholics across the world like me (ok, I don't have trillions ;-P) would fork over all of that to the Vatican city state for any cause -- and your post is wrong.

I do give some (not enough) to Catholic charities and missions, but no, it doesn't go through the Vatican.

The Vatican doesn't have "access to as much of that wealth as they may ever need", not even wrt to individual dioceses who would baulk at giving all of it to the Vatican as they use it for charities etc.

38 posted on 11/04/2011 8:16:55 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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If I’d known where this thread would go then I wouldn’t have started it


39 posted on 11/04/2011 8:20:10 AM PDT by decimon
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To: SpirituTuo; Nervous Tick
"Untold riches," eh Nervous Tick?

What next, the Whore of Babylon? We're heard it before, so cough it up and show your true colors.

Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel, not to mention Bernini's baldacchino in Saint Peter's and other extremely valuable art owned by the Vatican, are not for sale. This artwork will remain for the greater glory of God, and they are available for viewing by every humble man or woman who wishes to view them.

Isn't it tiresome how the Catholic Bashers crawl out every time there is a newsworthy article posted on FR about the Vatican?

40 posted on 11/04/2011 8:21:10 AM PDT by d-back
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To: SpirituTuo

>> what have they done with it?

There never seems to be a shortage of funds with which to pay off the victims of pedophile priests. The amounts would bankrupt any ordinary corporation (ref: Dow Corning and breast implants). Do you really want to go there?

Whatever the catholics want to do, or build, or wherever they want to go, it happens. Where does all that dough come from?

Similarly, that tight vatican budget is an accounting artifact. They’re a little over this year, a little behind last year... overall, they have enough. If the vatican ever needed a big infusion of dough, the call would go out to the bishops worldwide... and the money would appear. Prove it ain’t so.


41 posted on 11/04/2011 8:21:39 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: d-back

>> Isn’t it tiresome how the Catholic Bashers crawl out yadda yadda

The same could be said for the rabid catholic sycophants for whom any word or deed from the pope and his underlings is beyond mortal question.


42 posted on 11/04/2011 8:25:08 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick
Prove it ain’t so.

No, that's boring. How about this: prove you're not Obama's gay lover. C'mon, big guy -- can you prove that negative?

43 posted on 11/04/2011 8:27:38 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus

>> can you prove that negative?

Yep, I certainly can.

Now you go.


44 posted on 11/04/2011 8:28:35 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick
So you post something demonstrably stupid and erroneous about the Catholic Church's "untold wealth"; you fail to back off when others point out your error, and in fact double down on your ignorance and--yes--anti Catholic bigotry; and now we're "rabid catholic sycophants" for pointing all this out?

Fear and trembling, indeed. You need to worry about that plank in your eye, pal.

45 posted on 11/04/2011 8:29:25 AM PDT by d-back
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To: d-back

Well, that’s your pea-brained conclusion, and wrong though it is, you’re certainly entitled to it if it makes you feel better.

My mileage varies, thank you.


46 posted on 11/04/2011 8:33:34 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick
There never seems to be a shortage of funds with which to pay off the victims of pedophile priests. The amounts would bankrupt any ordinary corporation (ref: Dow Corning and breast implants).

It's bankrupted a number of dioceses already, or haven't you been paying attention?

Just as an interesting factoid, if you count assets per capita, the Mormons can buy and sell the Catholic Church many times over.

47 posted on 11/04/2011 8:36:41 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Nervous Tick

Settlements have been handled by each diocese and their own insurance, etc. A quick word about Church organization. A diocese is operationally and financially independent of Rome. So, when a new school or seminary needs to be built, those monies must come from the diocese and its donors, not from Rome.

While the story of abuse by priests has been large, and the victims numerous, it has also involved cases that are sometimes 40+ years old, and outside of the statute of limitations, therefore, no settlements. In other words, there are more stories than settlements.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a monolith. It is composed of 23 autonomous churches (think Eastern), and 2795 diocese (Vatican, Annuario Pontificio 2009, p. 1172).

Finally, what would it matter if Pope requested, and received additional monies? Perhaps it would mean more food for the starving, medicine for the sick, care for the aged, education for the ignorant. Would you be opposed to such things?


48 posted on 11/04/2011 8:39:53 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Emerson C

Thanks for the perspective.


49 posted on 11/04/2011 8:41:40 AM PDT by TEXOKIE (The Tea Party outnumbers the Flea Party!)
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To: decimon
you can still kill the thread by requesting the Religion Moderator. When it comes to a Caflix thread, the "let's bash em Caflix" crowd makes up the most fantastical stories like The wealth under the direct control of the catholics is in the hundreds of billions, if not low trillions." let's get some of that!
50 posted on 11/04/2011 8:44:19 AM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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