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Germany drawing up plans for Greece to leave the euro
The Telegraph ^ | 2/18/2012 | Bruno Waterfield, Brussels

Posted on 02/18/2012 5:33:00 PM PST by bruinbirdman

Plans for Greece to default, potentially leaving the euro, have been drafted in Germany as the European Union begins to face up to the fact that Greek debt is spiralling out of control - with or without a second bailout.

The German finance ministry is actively pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt and to agree a "haircut" on the bulk of its debts held by banks, a move that would be classed as a default by financial markets.

Eurozone finance ministers meet on Monday to approve the next tranche of loans from the EU and the International Monetary Fund, designed to stave off national bankruptcy while the new Greek government puts the country's finances in order.

But the severe austerity measures being demanded have caused such fury in Greece, and the cuts required are so deep, that Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, does not believe that any government would be able to implement them.

His pessimism has been tipped into despair with a secret European Commission, Central and IMF report that even if Greece made good on its promises, it would not be enough to reach the target of bringing total debt to 120 per cent of GDP by 2020.

"He just thinks the Greeks cannot do what needs to be done. And even if by some miracle they did what has been promised, he - and a growing group - are convinced it will not pull Greece out the hole," said a eurozone official.

"The idea instead is that the Greek government should officially declare itself bankrupt and begin negotiating an even bigger cut with its creditors. For Schäuble, it is more a question of when, not if."

The German finance minister's comments are certain to plunge the authorities in Athens into even deeper

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: europeanunion; germany; greece
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1 posted on 02/18/2012 5:33:05 PM PST by bruinbirdman
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To: bruinbirdman

Socialists around the world are running out of other people’s money.
The USA will plunge headlong into another four years of it soon.


2 posted on 02/18/2012 5:40:10 PM PST by omega4179 (Internet ID:FU░&#BO)
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To: bruinbirdman

Germany has been working its butt off — especially when it took in East Germany after the fall.

Greece is like that drunk cousin who keeps asking for money and saying “really, I will get off the sauce today.”

And Greece is the USA in 5-10 years if the democrats continue to hold sway.

In the meantime, say “auf widersehen” to the Euro, the 2nd stupidest idea mankind ever came up with (Communism being #1)


3 posted on 02/18/2012 5:40:22 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: bruinbirdman
It's about time.
Greece is a third-world country, despite what Greeks THINK they are.
4 posted on 02/18/2012 5:40:52 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: bruinbirdman
It's about time.
Greece is a third-world country, despite what Greeks THINK they are.
5 posted on 02/18/2012 5:41:08 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: bruinbirdman
Where there's smoke....

Report: Insider Documents Detail a March 23 Greek Default Plan; Gov to Freeze Bank Accounts, Eliminate Euro, Restrict Capital Flow

6 posted on 02/18/2012 5:41:28 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

I agree. The one statement in the article says it all “the general public will be left holding the bag”. They are positioning themselves to protect their investments and dump the dead cat on the uninformed.


7 posted on 02/18/2012 5:58:44 PM PST by RetiredTexasVet (There's a pill for just about everything ... except stupid!)
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To: cloudmountain

The U.S. is a 3rd world Country. We are living on debt. We are living off of debt. Thanks to Obama and “free trade” with China, the U.S. is worse off than Greece . It is only that the U.S. can print the stupid dollar (for now). Greece is being forced into austerity measures. The U.S. has much more debt than Greece . The U.S. should be reducing spending not borrowing trillions more. This borrowing trillions will lead the U.S.to a much worse collapse than Greece.


8 posted on 02/18/2012 6:03:23 PM PST by Democrat_media (China is destroying all our jobs and manufacturing ability. China makes everything.)
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To: freedumb2003
Germany has been working its butt off — especially when it took in East Germany after the fall. Greece is like that drunk cousin who keeps asking for money and saying “really, I will get off the sauce today.” And Greece is the USA in 5-10 years if the democrats continue to hold sway. In the meantime, say “auf widersehen” to the Euro, the 2nd stupidest idea mankind ever came up with (Communism being #1)

It was a 2-way street. When Greece adopted the euro, it was at a rate that meant a revaluation of the drachma against the mark. This meant Greece became more uncompetitive than it already was, trade-wise. And for over a decade, Greece has been unable to devalue, even as Germany racked up massive trade surpluses vs the PIIGS. It's as if we got into a currency union with China, which would prevent us from getting the Chinese to revalue their currency. The result would be even bigger trade deficits for us vis-a-vis the Chinese.

The problem with a common currency for the EU is that it really only works if EU members have a common language, and discrimination on the basis of national origin is outlawed EU-wide. In reality, Greeks cannot get jobs in Germany. They are stuck in Greece. During the Great Depression, Okies could and did go to California, which was in much better economic shape. The lack of economic safety valves due to language differences is why the euro is ultimately doomed.

9 posted on 02/18/2012 6:05:39 PM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

The Greeks want out of the Euro for the simple reason they want to be free to print up as many drachmas as they want.


10 posted on 02/18/2012 6:08:28 PM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: cloudmountain

If they drop the euro the new currency will be so devalued I’ll be able to afford a vacation there


11 posted on 02/18/2012 6:09:15 PM PST by utherdoul
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To: Democrat_media
If you think the USA is a third-world country then you have a real surprise when you go to places like the middle east, Africa, Asia and south of the border. You ain't seen nuthin' yet. THOSE countries are what makes US look like a first world country, so matter how horrible YOU think things are here.
12 posted on 02/18/2012 6:09:23 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: bruinbirdman
Mr Schäuble maintains that since Greece is already regarded by the financial world as bankrupt, a formal bankruptcy would have no negative consequences for other euro members.

Maybe not for countries, but what about the people and companies who loaned them money? We might see more MFGlobal type collapses.-tom

13 posted on 02/18/2012 6:09:52 PM PST by Capt. Tom
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To: bruinbirdman
Others will be leaving as prophecy says there will be ten when IT happens.
14 posted on 02/18/2012 6:10:06 PM PST by fish hawk (Isa. 42:12 Let them give glory unto the Lord and declare his praise in the islands. (Maui))
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To: Zhang Fei

>>The problem with a common currency for the EU is that it really only works if EU members have a common language, and discrimination on the basis of national origin is outlawed EU-wide. In reality, Greeks cannot get jobs in Germany. They are stuck in Greece. During the Great Depression, Okies could and did go to California, which was in much better economic shape. The lack of economic safety valves due to language differences is why the euro is ultimately doomed.<<

That is an extremely insightful analysis.

Thanks!


15 posted on 02/18/2012 6:10:58 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: RetiredTexasVet; blam

“We’ll likely see massive outflows of capital from Europe to the United States, which would have an almost immediate and adverse impact on dollar denominated assets including US stocks, commodities, and precious metals.”

Wait, what? I am lost. Or the author is.


16 posted on 02/18/2012 6:17:45 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: Zhang Fei
This meant Greece became more uncompetitive than it already was, trade-wise.

Similarly, using the common currency made Germany and France become more competitive than they would have been with their own currencies.

However bad the euro was for Greece and others was balanced by it being that much better for Germany and France.

17 posted on 02/18/2012 6:18:52 PM PST by Wissa (Gone Galt)
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To: utherdoul
If they drop the euro the new currency will be so devalued I’ll be able to afford a vacation there

That's a fact, jack. It will be just like it always USED to be.

18 posted on 02/18/2012 6:22:20 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Zhang Fei
the EU is that it really only works if EU members have a common language...In reality, Greeks cannot get jobs in Germany.

Nice theory, but wrong.

Turks have have flooded into Germany, and because they are willing to work, they get jobs. A surprising number of Russians, as well. Poles have flocked to the UK.

And finally, Europeans with a modicum of education do have a common Language. English.

19 posted on 02/18/2012 6:22:59 PM PST by PAR35
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To: patton
"We’ll likely see massive outflows of capital from Europe to the United States"

It has been going on since Ireland went bust, at least 18 months.

U. S.A. gets downgraded and so much money flows to Treasuries, interest rates go down.

We're good for the next five years while EUrotopia goes broke, or unless The Obammunist is re-elected.

yitbos

20 posted on 02/18/2012 6:37:10 PM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: patton

I tried to figure that one out too:?


21 posted on 02/18/2012 6:50:14 PM PST by Cold Heart
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To: bruinbirdman

http://ww2db.com/images/person_blaskowitz13.jpg


22 posted on 02/18/2012 6:51:20 PM PST by tumblindice
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To: bruinbirdman
U. S.A. gets downgraded and so much money flows to Treasuries, interest rates go down.

Even with the inflows of money out of euro-denominated assets, interest rates wouldn't stay down where they are if the fed wasn't buying up all the debt that the public won't buy at current rates.

23 posted on 02/18/2012 6:54:00 PM PST by Wissa (Gone Galt)
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To: Cold Heart

Well, the theory seems to be, if somebody yanks a trillion or so out of the DAX, and puts it into the US stocks, it will then cause US stocks to tank.

Are these people on drugs, or dog food?


24 posted on 02/18/2012 6:56:27 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: utherdoul
Cheap Greek chicks baby!

25 posted on 02/18/2012 7:09:49 PM PST by TSgt (Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.)
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To: patton
“We’ll likely see massive outflows of capital from Europe to the United States, which would have an almost immediate and adverse impact on dollar denominated assets including US stocks, commodities, and precious metals.”

Yeah...I would have thought the opposite would occur...flight to safety and all that.

26 posted on 02/18/2012 7:10:55 PM PST by spokeshave (Mitt will release his tax returns when 0bambi releases his Birth Certificate and grades)
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To: spokeshave

Eh, economists. Who can understand them.


27 posted on 02/18/2012 7:21:12 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: Cincinna; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; ...

Thanks bruinbirdman.


28 posted on 02/18/2012 7:25:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: patton

“Well, the theory seems to be, if somebody yanks a trillion or so out of the DAX, and puts it into the US stocks, it will then cause US stocks to tank.

Are these people on drugs, or dog food?”
******************************************
Nah, I think they’re on LSD.

But I did like the last paragraph of the linked article:

“There have been false alarms in the past, and we won’t deny that this may be one of them. But we’re of the view that when a smoke alarm goes off, we evacuate first and substantiate it once we’re out of harm’s way. The alternative is that you end up trapped in a burning building.”

We may ALL end up, figuratively speaking, trapped in a burning building -— led there by Obama and the other statists in the ruling elite.


29 posted on 02/18/2012 7:36:02 PM PST by House Atreides
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To: bruinbirdman

So now Deutschland would prefer Greece is booted out of Europe basically.

While Turkey is in NATO.

OK. Turkey stronger. Greece kicked out of the Euro. German central control, anyone else just a tiny bit leery where this is heading?

Just asking.


30 posted on 02/18/2012 7:45:39 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: House Atreides

“We may ALL end up, figuratively speaking, trapped in a burning building -— led there by Obama and the other statists in the ruling elite.”

That is true.


31 posted on 02/18/2012 7:47:37 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

No, not really. The germans are quite peacefull when they rally.

When they start to march - well, that is something to behold.


32 posted on 02/18/2012 7:51:04 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: patton

Obama did not start sending American factories to China.

Let’s be honest about at least part of the problem.

Outsourcing.

Not a liberal problem. That’s one, which is firmly owned and the fault of, those who abuse the ideas of Ayn Rand to justify firing Americans and closing our factories.

Let’s please not pretend otherwise.

America first. At long last.


33 posted on 02/18/2012 7:51:49 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Heck of a segue you had there - I had to re-read the thread, to figure out what you were on about.

Yes and no - outsourcing is not really an outcome of taxation, or low wages - it is an intended outcome of the EPA. Blame Nixon.


34 posted on 02/18/2012 7:59:19 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: patton

There’s never a thread in my opinion, not to point out America is stupidly giving away our national industry and greatness.

Never.

Thanks for changing gears. :D


35 posted on 02/18/2012 8:03:18 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Cold Heart; patton
"I tried to figure that one out too:?"

The reference was to dollar denominated equities. These would be EUrotopia equities with ADRs (American Deposit Receipts) on the U.S. exchanges, like Siemens AG (NYSE: SI).

yitbos

36 posted on 02/18/2012 8:05:17 PM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: bruinbirdman

A “haircut,” meaning Germany is forgiving Greece’s debt. Yet clown journalists in the UK complain that Germany is somehow taking more from Greece.

And here, it’s all a distraction from our US debt situation, which is terminal. The distraction is part of an effort to prop the dollar unnaturally high in the globalist economy, while trade imbalances against us are also high.

Deflate, and shut ‘er all down now? Or inflate, buying more time and making the future shutdown more severe?

Most influential political folks depend mostly on debt for their incomes to support their licensed, pedigreed and approved sitting positions, each crying for funding to be cut from some other group in the population. It’s quite a strange show.


37 posted on 02/18/2012 8:05:46 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: bruinbirdman

Expand, please.


38 posted on 02/18/2012 8:12:50 PM PST by patton ("Je pense donc je suis," - My Horse.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; patton

No worry. Uncle Jintao send more gifts to daughters of government-connected, progressive American elite. He even send more debt to buy gifts. Republicrat call one-way exchange, “conservative” and “capitalism,” like great progressive-conservatives Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. Halla! How! Make okay!


39 posted on 02/18/2012 8:17:08 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: familyop

40 posted on 02/18/2012 8:21:52 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: All

(that means “correct” in Rio Linda)


41 posted on 02/18/2012 8:26:36 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

You are cheating. How can a person comment on 對 and talk to you when you only say 對 ?

I will see your 對 and raise you Thailand.

42 posted on 02/18/2012 8:27:29 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

NOW you tell us.


43 posted on 02/18/2012 8:28:47 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: combat_boots

Thailand?


44 posted on 02/18/2012 8:32:43 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: combat_boots

I’ll see your Thailand, and raise you a YouTube video of Katreeya English.

So there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_8PB88bo6I&feature=related


45 posted on 02/18/2012 8:36:17 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
LOL.

I didn't understand her either. ;>

THIS, however, anyone understands, and the movie was about stealing artifacts of the Greek national heritage: Gosh, that was a long time ago.

46 posted on 02/18/2012 8:51:38 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: combat_boots

Heritage huh?

That’s your story?

OK those are very famous temples in the background of that video too.

Sure.

(actually they are)


47 posted on 02/18/2012 8:56:16 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Aha. THAT’s what they are! Temples!

In all seriousness, I hope every Greek knows how to fish and does so regularly. It is a pretty place. Well, parts of it.

I don’t know how to spell this in Greek, but kali nichta.


48 posted on 02/18/2012 9:14:05 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: cloudmountain

“If you think the USA is a third-world country then you have a real surprise when you go to places like the middle east, Africa, Asia and south of the border. You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. THOSE countries are what makes US look like a first world country, so matter how horrible YOU think things are here. “

Actually I think he’s saying that we’re following the tracks of Argentina, which was a first-world country until about 80 years ago. They were kicking butt economically. But then they fell for Socialism and now you have boatloads of poor people, beautiful houses that are rotting, and a country that is anything but first-world.

That’s our path, and once China cuts off our lifeline, we collapse just like Argentina did. It’s only a (short) matter of time now for us, thanks to our debt.


49 posted on 02/18/2012 9:30:42 PM PST by BobL (I don't care about his past - Santorum will BRING THE FIGHT to Obama)
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To: combat_boots

I believe the temple is called Wat Arun, or Temple of Dawn.

Downtown Bangkok by the Chao Phraya river.

Stunning temple.


50 posted on 02/18/2012 9:35:23 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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