Posted on 03/31/2012 6:04:29 PM PDT by Borges
The Grand Canyon, and much of the rest of Earth's geological features, were formed in Noah's flood, and the underpinnings of modern science and textbooks are based on frauds that have been perpetrated in a war between secular culture and Christians. That was the message brought to Northern Arizona University's Cline Library Auditorium on Thursday night by Flagstaff resident Russ Miller, who travels around the country speaking at churches as part of his Creation, Evolution & Science Ministries. He also publishes books like "Noah's Ark and Dinosaurs," and he leads paid tours into the Grand Canyon teaching his beliefs.
"You need to understand that you're involved in the greatest world war in the history of the world, and at a foundational level this is a war of world views," Miller said. "It's not a war of bombs, bullets and airplanes, it's much more serious than that. This is a war that's already claimed the souls of billions of people." Miller believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible that he says confirms the Earth was formed over the course of six days several thousand years ago. He also believes that evolution is a religious belief.
"From the big bang ... to the big rock, to the rain on rock, to the spontaneous generation, to the first cells, to the first vertebrates; there is no evidence whatsoever. It's all a religious belief. And if you wanna believe that, it's fine; just admit it's a belief and stop teaching it in schools as fact," Miller said.
BIBLE AS 'TRUE HISTORY'
The talk was sponsored by the Victorious Life Christian Center in Flagstaff, which paid to rent the auditorium for Miller's talk. The audience was escorted to their seats by ushers in maroon sport coats with nametags and given fliers on the church. Most in attendance were church members, but there were a number of NAU science students and professors in attendance as well.
Miller was introduced by Tim Masters, a pastor at Victorious Life, who said the point of the talk was to present information, not to stir debate. "One thing about the Bible is it's not a science book, but it is the true history book of the universe," Miller said. "If billions of years of death existed before man, then the Bible is not true." Rather than attempt to prove that the Earth had formed in six days or present evidence for a global flood, Miller spent most of the talk attacking evolution. He presented a barrage of slides highlighting what he claimed were problems with everything from radio-carbon dating to humanity's hominid ancestors. Each point was met with alternating smatterings of laughter and 'Amen."
'ALL PRETTY RIDICULOUS'
His presentation flew in the face of modern findings in geology, biology, chemistry, physics and astronomy. "The problem is they have to not only carve the canyon with the flood but they have to lay down all the layers of sediment with the same flood," said Northern Arizona University Associate Astronomy Professor Dave Koerner, who attended the talk. "And so you have to lay down all these layers of sediment that are in the Grand Canyon, they have to solidify within a short amount of time, and then when the waters recede, you have to carve them out again. That's all pretty ridiculous and impossible, but it doesn't keep them from trying."
Koerner does research on planets forming around distant stars using NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope. He also teaches astrobiology -- the study of life in the universe -- among other courses at the university.
Koerner felt compelled to start a course call "Evolution vs. Creationism" in response to the controversy surrounding prior talks Miller gave on campus. The Daily Sun sat down with Koerner before Thursday's talk. "In general it's a free country and you can believe really nutty things if you want to. Why not?" Koerner said. "Where I have a problem is if you are trying to compel a lot of people or teach them things that contradict the scientific results in our culture. ... There's a lot of students and young people who could have promising careers in technical professions. As long as scientists are demonized to them and lied about it, it puts a roadblock in their way."
FROM CREATIONIST TO AGNOSTIC
Koerner was raised in a creationist household in southern California and taught Bible school himself for years. He says he loved science growing up, but was scared to learn science because it was cast as evil. He even believed a literal interpretation of the Bible up until he taught a course using the book of a well-known creationist named Henry Morris. The book, called "The Genesis Flood," actually helped turn him against a literal account of creation because it was so hard to believe, even with a limited understanding of science.
By the time he had finished an undergraduate degree in geology, he had erased any doubt in a scientific understanding of Earth's origins. And after getting his Ph.D. from the California Institute of Technology, he no longer believed in God at all. Koerner says he now considers himself agnostic.
"I was not actually able to go into the science, just psychologically, until I was well into my 30s," he said. "It took me that long to overcome all the indoctrination about young Earth and the idea that scientists are evil, anti-religious people, which is not true."
TWO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS
The talk on Thursday was closed out by Masters, who dismissed the crowd without taking questions.
"We're talking about two religious beliefs, creationism and evolution," Masters told the audience. "One has tremendous proof, one does not. There is an end to everything. ... The question we have to ask ourselves is, 'Where do we want to spend eternity?'"
He then finished with a prayer and asked people to come up and turn their lives to Christ if they saw fit. Many students walked out during the prayer. Miller was approached by several students after the talk who confronted him with scientific errors in his presentation, but the exchanges were mostly polite. That contrasted with previous talks at NAU during which discussions spun into yelling matches.
A small group of students stood outside in a protest, with one carrying a sign reading "Beware of Confirmation Bias."
To all those laughing closed-minded individuals, please see my links at post #12 in this thread if you want to see some truly awesome facts found in creation science. Think about this ~ Seashell fossils are found on the tops of all mountain ranges worldwide.
Here’s another cool link showing how pervasive the Noah’s Ark legend is with many varied cultures worldwide. Like you should expect for an event Biblically purported to have occurred some 4,500 years ago.
http://shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/arche.htm
Please indulge me while I paraphrase back what I think you said and my thoughts:
According to Job, a baby's afterlife is a place of rest. This is not what we think of as Heaven.
What we think of as Heaven is simply too intense an environment for someone of the intellectual and spiritual level of an infant.
A baby would no more be comfortable in that Heaven than they would in the middle of a rock concert! Innocents get an age/developmentally appropriate afterlife, a place of warmth, love and comfort.
By contrast, one can look at any number of medieval paintings and see people being "driven into" Hell. A closer look reveals they are escaping into Hell! The terrible light and glory of God and Heaven is overwhelmingly fearful to most.
The highest complement one could give used to be to describe someone as "God fearing". The Bible is rife with examples of prophets and shepherds being terrified by the presence of the divine.
Given a choice most of us would be in a comfort zone with respect to the old God Himself, not so close that we would be overwhelmed and consumed, not so far that we would freeze alone in desolation.
The modern god is a good ol' boy, neutered and harmless, everybody's bud. The modern heaven is sort of a quiet party central, with no sense of purpose, but lots of lotus blossoms to eat.
From my understanding, Heaven -the old Heaven- will ultimately be populated by God, a host of Angels and a select few (144,000?) tough enough and spiritually prepared ex-humans who will have the wherewithal to defeat the Dragon. The rest of us don't make the cut, but will presumably be there for the following peace on earth.
Or not.
OK, first, yes, REST is what Jesus said was Heaven too.
There are over 200 verses to this one and in no way can I do that justice in one post.
However, the strongest and most direct cases are Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4. (excerpt) Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
In Heaven there will be MANY roles: Not every one in Heaven is equal. Not everyone in Heaven is even “Saved”. This gets very complicated, so I will only brush across it and leave the detailed searching of matters to whomever so chooses to explore further.
There are at least 4 different “ranks” in Heaven. What we call the old testament saints, the new testament saints, the tribulation saints and the angels. There is doctrine for more, but these are enough for the proof of concept.
These are in Heaven by 4 different means: Justified by Faith, Justified by Grace, Justified by Martyrdom, and created beings who did not side with Satan in rebellion.
Read all of Romans Chapter 9: (Excerpt) Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
And 2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
So let me place this into a context of babies and “others”. The mentally feeble and last minute sinners.
In Heaven, you will be whatever is left of Christ, that is tried by fire, the old you will be burned away. Some verses also say cleaved or cut away. Many examples. The gist is, if you are 90% selfish sinner and 10% saved, you will be a small thing in heaven. Forever. Unable to grow, change, eternal as is. Perhaps a wooden spoon in the kitchen, while someone else is a gold flower vase in the dining room? Follow that analogy?
So, a baby, did not make many or any choices, they get to go to heaven, they will not be cast out into eternal darkness and shame, but they also will be must more than a baby either.
Same for the guy who repents on death row. He might actually go to heaven, but he may be a chamber pot under a bed. Better than HELL, but surely NOT the eternal glory he could have chosen.
As for the population of hell and that 144,000 number, most outside of the Jehovah’s witnesses, believe that to be Jews “saved” during the tribulation. If they get counted as tribulation saints, or old testament saints, or one of the “other” classifications is simply unknowable. 144,000 do get “saved” in the generic sense, but what of them eternally beyond that? It does not say directly.
As for the “saved” or “church” that will be millions. And the tribulation saints, billions. But only the Church is the bride of Christ in role.
Hope that gives you so fun and interesting thoughts to seek out.
Be blessed.
Hmmm. Not every American ever sees the president...
Yea, Verily. And also ignored or denied by those who say science and Christian faith have never been related.
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things Not seen......Heb 11
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. ......For He spoke, and it was done;.. He commanded, and it stood fast..........Psl 33:6/Psl 33:9
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being... John1:3
Why "through faith"?...... Because "the things that are seen were not made of things which do appear.".... For this is Faith......
"True faith drops its letter in the post-office box, and lets it go. Distrust holds on to a corner of it, and wonders that the answer never comes". ..A.B. Simpson
Modern science and the scientific method grew DIRECTLY out of Western Christianity and there is no analog to the process elsewhere on Earth, or in history.
The conditions (temperature and turbidity) posited for the conditions of the flood waters that are used to account for fossilization and geological formations are incompatible with modern aquatic life having survived in that water.
Add a canard to your toolset.
You need to think for yourself. Listening to men with broken watches tell you what time it is, when you can look up and see where the Sun is, just doesn’t make sense.
Some knowledge is best learned by discovery, rather than by doctrina.
Pressure = height*specific gravity. 400atm seems to be plenty to do the job.
The Spirit Valley I was referring to is the Spirit River and Spirit Lake below Mt Saint Helens. There is unbelievable video footage of the mud flows through there in the days after the eruption in the movie entitled “The Fire Below Us”. It is a movie that is a must have.
The Spirit Valley I was referring to is the Spirit River and Spirit Lake below Mt Saint Helens. There is unbelievable video footage of the mud flows through there in the days after the eruption in the movie entitled “The Fire Below Us”. It is a movie that is a must have.
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