Greece: 'Totalitarian ideologies on the rise among young Greek voters'

Deutsche Welle ^ | Friday, May 4, 2012 | Jannis Papadimitriou, ed. by Nicole Goebel

[SunkenCiv]

In the elections on May 6, the main political parties in Greece are expecting major losses. The protest parties who are against austerity cuts may well profit from that.

Manolis Mavrommatis is a textbook election candidate: in the 1980s he was already a well-known face on Greek televion as a sports reporter. His rapid delivery on live broadcasts endeared him among football fans and earned him the nickname "Manolo." Later Mavrommatis gained political experience as a member of the European Parliament in Brussels.

Now, Mavrommatis is running as a candidate for New Democracy (ND), Greece's major conservative party, in the Athens City district. That area is usually a stronghold for the center-right party. In the last elections in 2009, their election to parliament was a foregone conclusion, but this time round polls show support for the conservatives under leader Antonis Samaras is at a historic low.

The leader of the Socialist party, Evangelos Venizelos, has similar concerns. The two main parties will be happy if they scrape together 40 percent of the vote. But Mavrommatis refuses to believe the polls.

[SunkenCiv]

G’night all.

[Mr Ramsbotham]

Never turn your back on a Greek.

[marron]

When people realize socialism isn’t working, they’ll demand fascism. They always think the guns will be pointing at the other guy.

[SunkenCiv]

> Never turn your back on a Greek.

The Athenian “democracy” turned on Themistocles — architect of the Athenian defeat of the Persians — then on its other successful war leaders during the Pelopponesian War. During that latter war, the Spartans solicited Persian money to build and man a fleet to defeat Athens. That wasn’t novel — they arrived after the Battle of Marathon, fully expecting to take control over defeated Greece, only to find their Persian allies had lost to the Athenians and their allies.

Loans to Greece: Lucrative for Germany?
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15924330,00.html

[Brilliant]

Democracy ended the same way in ancient Greece.

[dljordan]

“When people realize socialism isn’t working, they’ll demand fascism. They always think the guns will be pointing at the other guy.”

Good Morning America!

[Mr Ramsbotham]

True, but (1) I was trying to make a funny; and (2) the modern Greeks probably are not related to the ancient Greeks!

[bill1952]

Thats a rather penetrating analysis - Very good student of history you are.

The cause of all these evils was the lust for power arising from greed and ambition; and from these passions proceeded the violence of parties once engaged in contention."

- Thucydides

[AnAmericanAbroad]

When times are tough and people are troubled, they almost invariably turn to authoritarian/totalitarian forms of government.

Sad to say, but that story’s as old as the hills. Seems to be a curious failing in human nature.

[M1903A1]

“It’s all THEIR fault” and “I have ALL the answers and will solve all your problems if you give me absolute power” are heady siren songs in tough times.

[SunkenCiv]

To more accurately appropriate a famous joke from behind the Iron Curtain (or maybe it was Churchill?)

Under fascism, man exploits man.

Under socialism, it’s the other way around.

[SunkenCiv]

Such as it was.

http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/notes/ch02/n026.htm

[Vince Ferrer]

Never turn your back on a Greek.

And never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

[SunkenCiv]

The modern Greeks speak the Greek language, which has evolved since ancient times, but remains spoken (and written) Greek. They're as Greek as the Greeks of Pericles' Athens.

Regarding the funny, looks like I need to take one of these, and buy myself a sense of humor:

[Mr Ramsbotham]

The modern Greeks speak the Greek language, which has evolved since ancient times, but remains spoken (and written) Greek. They're as Greek as the Greeks of Pericles' Athens.

I recall reading in Gibbon that they were overrun by barbarian tribes to the extent that the originals were fully assimilated, even though the language remained. Kind of like what the British will be in a couple hundred years if things keep up the way they are: mostly Arab, but still speaking English, and still called English or Scots, or what-not.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks b52!

[FreedomPoster]

Well, there isn’t much difference between the two, nor them and communism.

For some succinct commentary on the subject, see the two-paragraph Hayek quote on my FR profile page. It’s the 3rd one down.

[SunkenCiv]

Gibbon based that on nothing much.

There’s a loss of about half of the parental genetic info in every generation, give or take family size, cousin marriages, and of course, everyone’s favorite, random chance.

There’s evidence for the destruction of the (non-Greek) Minoans in the Aegean (Crete for example) by the Mycenaean-era Greeks, who took over immediately on top of the destruction layers (nothing to do with any “super-eruption”), and supplanted them in Anatolia, Cyprus, and possibly in Sicily — that is, the Mycenaeans colonized Sicily, but it’s not clear that the Minoans did (last time I looked it up).

The written language of the Minoans was Linear A, and that was adapted for Greek as Linear B. Linear A doesn’t appear to have any Greek influences, other than (possibly) a number system, but Linear B is clearly derivative of Linear A, rather than the other way around. The Mycenaeans also may have used cuneiform, as the “Hittite” archive in Anatolia actually mentions the Achaeans and copies of some diplomatic correspondence to the Achaeans have survived. But no Linear B.

When the Mycenaean era ended perhaps a couple of generations after the historic Trojan War, Mycenaean sites were either abandoned for good, or were immediately reoccupied by a culturally similar group (pottery styles changed just bit, Linear B continued in use, some of the Mycenaean pantheon of deities vanished for good, others like Poseidon made it through). The mythical founding of classical Sparta attributes it to a defeat of the descendants of Menelaus by a group led by two brothers claiming descent from Hercules (yawn). The “Helen” palace stood on a hill outside the modern town, and vanished, but later on a shrine to Helen was constructed for the ancient tourist trade.

Some towns seem to have swollen in size, perhaps due to refugees, perhaps due to their conquest and enslavement of neighboring towns. Water supplies were enhanced at that time. Since it’s clear that there was a major upheaval throughout most of Greece — the agricultural project at Gla was destroyed by a breaching of the dam — I tend to believe it was the former (refugees), and that the port towns got the most benefit.

There’s not any great amount of evidence of foreign armies sacking cities — non-Greek arrowheads and spearheads, helmets, swords, shields, etc — just the sudden population movement. And towns and palaces were burned, as was the case at Pylos, capital of Homeric Nestor, where Blegen found the whole royal archive of Linear B tablets on his first day of excavating. The whole collapse of Mycenaean Greece is sometimes attributed to something the Brits call “over-specialization”, which is of course completely ridiculous. More likely it was directly or indirectly due to some kind of natural climate change.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks FP.