Posted on 06/07/2012 4:50:49 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
WATERLOO, Iowa — Joe Carpenter has more questions than answers about what happened on June 8, 1967 — but no question about the valor of his shipmates.
Carpenter, a 1965 West High School graduate, was a crew member of the USS Liberty. The U.S. Navy ship was attacked by Israeli forces during the 1967 Six Day War, in which Israel defeated a host of Arab nations and captured the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.
Thirty-four of Carpenter's shipmates were killed and 174 wounded — two-thirds of the crew of 294. Carpenter himself was reported to have been severely wounded when he was mistaken for another "J. Carpenter" on the ship.
Friday is the 45th anniversary of the Liberty incident. Peace organizations are planning observances in Iowa City and Cedar Rapids. Carpenter wants no part of anyone's political agenda.
"Some of the guys on the ship got consumed with this," he said. "I didn't do that."
He believes his shipmates — particularly those who fought fires, kept the ship afloat and tended to the wounded — should be remembered for their heroism along with those wounded or killed.
Though the U.S. was officially neutral in the conflict, Israel and the U.S. traditionally had been considered friends. Initially Carpenter thought the attack was from an Arab nation.
"Myself, I thought it was probably Egypt," Carpenter said. But the attacking planes and torpedo boats were identified as Israeli.
It was ironic, given the pro-Israel sentiments of much of the Liberty's crew
"We could see the war on the coast. We could see the planes," Carpenter said. "We were cheering the Israelis ... and then they came out and shot at us."
Israel claimed the Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian vessel. Others have suggested the attack was deliberate. U.S. official reports say the Liberty was flying an American flag.
Now, 45 years later, Carpenter thinks the truth may never be known despite numerous investigations by both sides.
He believes Congress should have held hearings, "but the principals who were involved are all dead," Carpenter said.
"I would have liked to have seen McNamara grilled," Carpenter said. Robert S. McNamara, U.S. defense secretary under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, died in 2009.
Some have suggested U.S. officials downplayed the incident to preserve relations with Israeli -- and may even have been negligent in a military response to support the Liberty.
"It was a spy ship" for the U.S., Carpenter said, conducting surveillance on the war in international waters near Gaza and the Sinai. Carpenter was a communications technician, transmitting encrypted messages.
But the Liberty was alone and significantly outgunned.
"We had four .50 caliber machine guns," Carpenter said, going up against French-made Israeli Mirage fighter jets and torpedo boats.
"It was pretty chaotic, to be sure," said Carpenter. He may have missed death by moments. He and a friend had just left an area of the ship when it was struck by an Israeli torpedo that was responsible for most of the deaths on board.
Much of the crew's efforts were spent putting out fires and keeping the ship afloat. Carpenter recalled one sailor who got separated from the group Carpenter was with and was killed by the attacking planes.
Carpenter enlisted in the Navy at age 17 upon graduation from West and had planned to re-enlist .
"That was before June 8, 1967," said Carpenter. He is now close to retirement from Tyson Fresh Meats in Waterloo.
Forty-three sailors received medals for heroism in the incident. Ship commander William McGonagle received the Medal of Honor.
Same could be said for a lot of stories from every war we've been in.
It's my understanding Israel is not a US ally.
I herd an explanation that the Liberty was a spy ship monitoring and mapping the war in real time. The computing power to analyze the data was in Cyprus under joint operations with the British. A spy was giving the intelligence on Israel to the Arabs (Egypt) So Israel is fighting for her life and they discover source of the intelligence to the Arabs. So it makes since that we didn’t want our capability to map battlefields in real time compromised and we need to catch a spy too.
5.) USS Liberty intercepts Israeli transmissions indicating Israeli first strike against Egyptian/Syrian air forces provoking ‘67 War... despite Israel government political rhetoric that Israel is a peace loving nation.
The Israelis had already destroyed the Egyptian and Syrian Air Forces by the time of the USS Liberty attacks. Any intelligence gathered concerning the first strikes had long been acquired and analyzed. Your number 5 is not a possibility.
Shalom
too true
“mapping the war in real time” makes absolutely no sense under the circumstances of the USS Liberty attacks. With only one Hebe linguist onboard, there could be no “real time” anything. This is 1967 and there was no such ability to do real time anything. Everything was funneled back to the analysts where ever that might have been and it would have taken a long time to figure out who was doing what to whom.
The spy angle is fiction. It makes for an interesting novel but it just is not true. How would the Israelis know of such a spy and how would they have known to whom he or she was passing such information? This is 1967 and the ability to catch such a spy real time is very limited as can be seen by the Pollard situation and others. It took years to finally catch the spies.
The idea that the US was passing info to the Russians to calm fears of losing client states is possible. An unknown spy passing TS information real time is almost impossible. Pollard and others did not steal real time information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Cooperation_Agreement
They are our ally in terms of concrete strategic alliance - they are the #1 recipient of our foreign aid since WWII (although we give to our enemies as well) - and we share a common enemy, or two, or three - and we have similar ideological alignment, both being Republics of free men.
Israel is our ally.
“The United States stands by its friends. Israel is one of its friends Peace can be based only on agreement between the parties and agreement can be achieved only through negotiations between them. The United States will not impose the terms of peace. The United States is prepared to supply military equipment necessary to support the efforts of friendly governments, like Israel's, to defend the safety of their people.” Nixon
“America must and will pursue friendship with all nations. But, this will never be done at the expense of America's committment to Israel. A strong Israel is essential to a stable peace in the Middle East. Our committment to Israel will meet the test of American stead, fairness, and resolve. My administration will not be found wanting. The United States will continue to help Israel provide for her security. My dedication to Israel's future goes beyond its military needs to a far higher priority — the need for peace. My commitment to the security and future of Israel is based upon basic morality as well as enlightened self-interest. Our role in supporting Israel honors our own heritage.” Ford
“We have a special relationship with Israel. It's absolutely crucial that no one in our country or around the world ever doubt that our number one committment in the Middle East is to protect the right of Israel to exist, to exist permanently, and to exist in peace. It's a special relationship. “ Carter
“Since the rebirth of the State of Israel, there has been an ironclad bond between that democracy and this one. In Israel, free men and women are every day demonstrating the power of courage and faith. Back in 1948 when Israel was founded, pundits claimed the new country could never survive. Today, no one questions that Israel is a land of stability and democracy in a region of tyranny and unrest.
America has never flinched from its commitment to the State of Israel—a commitment which remains unshakable.” Reagan
“The friendship, the alliance between the United States and Israel is strong and solid, built upon a foundation of shared democratic values, of shared history and heritage, that sustains the life of our two countries. The emotional bond of our people transcends politics. Our strategic cooperation—and I renew today our determination that that go forward—is a source of mutual security. And the United States’ commitment to the security of Israel remains unshakable.” Bush
(and change your signin name)
Did that attack continue for two hours using multiple F-4s and additional torpedo boats to try to sink the HMAS Hobart? Just curious (NOT),
the Liberty could map all/most communication and Identify the transmission and location they could make a real time map with the aid of a computer. The question is; could Communication be ID by the uniqueness of the transmitter? (no need to analyze the text of the transmission) The computing power at that time would have to be in Cyprus. The Liberty was attacked on the fifth day of the war. The Liberty would have been IDing transmission a long time before the war started. It makes since to me there would be more assets than just the ship. This would be the beginning of real time mapping of a battlefield in progress.
I think anytime you are in visual range of a war zone, you are in dire straits.
I don’t know if we told them it was there or not. If we told them, and gave them the location, and they shot it up anyway, then I think it’s more than just a mistake.
If we didn’t tell them, then we should have told them... or not have been there.
Sheesh, War is not a spectator's sport.
In 1974, only one place on the planet had the ability to map (not real time) such a war time situation and it had to gather information from hundreds of different locations. coordinate that information with other sources and then analyze the results. Many times it took weeks and even months to figure out units and locations. The Israelis are particularly difficult to work as they are very sensitive to opsec. No real time mapping capability existed in 1974 and I therefore suggest that it did not exist on a single limited capable USS Liberty.
June 5, 1967 - The operation was more successful than expected, catching the Egyptians by surprise and destroying virtually all of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground, with few Israeli losses. A total of 338 Egyptian aircraft were destroyed and 100 pilots were killed,[55] although the number of aircraft actually lost by the Egyptians is disputed.[56] (wilkipedia)
The Egyptian AF had already been wiped out. The first strike “alleged evil deed” had already occurred when the USS Liberty was attacked. Any intel damage would have already been collected. Only a person who really wants to believe the Israelis are evil would believe such a ridiculous theory. The USS Liberty was not the only asset active in the area. The Israelis were and are well-aware of assets that were available in the region.
As I stated, no serious person trying to get to the bottom of the reason why would buy into your theory. If you have a credible author who provides credible evidence, please let me know so I can reevaluate my position. I consider myself to be a serious person who will gladly change his mind when confronted by evidence. Once again, IMHO, the answer lies in the Golan Heights.
Unique Transmitters
The crystal of a radio transmitter is the most stable structure on the planet. Each radio has its own uniquely structured crystal and thus would have its own unique ‘fingerprint.” Theoretically, once a crystal transmits and it is cataloged , then that crystal, whenever it is used, could be located and IDed. This capability did not exist in 1974 and it did not exist in 1994 when I retired. The problem is that there was no technology sensitive enough to pick up the unique qualities that would be necessary to identify variations in the transmission coming from each separate and unique crystal.
Can’t say for sure that the technology does not now exist but . . . I know for a fact it did not exist in 1994 but was being looked at by a friend who was a defense contractor. He was an absolute genius with lots of degrees in telecommunications so . . . who knows.
Final Input - Golan Heights
From Wikipedia
On June 7 and 8, the Israeli leadership debated about whether the Golan Heights should be attacked as well; the attack on Syria was initially planned for June 8, but was postponed for 24 hours. At 3 am on June 9, Syria announced its acceptance of the cease-fire. Despite this, four hours later at 7 am, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan “gave the order to go into action against Syria.”[i] Syria had supported the pre-war raids that had helped raise tensions and had routinely shelled Israel from the Heights, so some Israeli leaders wanted to see Syria punished.”[113]
Noticed they posponed the Golan Heights attack for 24 hours from its initial plan of 8 June. Why was this postponed? The theory I buy into for the reason the USS Liberty was attacked is based on this 24 hour postponement.
The Israelis knew that the only asset capable of possibly collecting transmissions (LVHF military coms) from the Golan Heights was the USS Liberty. To insure the operation was not monitored, they tried to sink the USS Liberty prior to the planned move into the Golan Heights. Insiders in the Israeli government were disgusted by the objectives of the Golan Heights operation. It was not really to punish the Syrians for their unsuccessful attempts of attacking Israel but it was done out of simple greed. The Golan Heights, as I mentioned earlier, is fantastically fertile and a great strategic location. With the USS Liberty out of the way, the move into the Golan Heights could be done with total deniability.
Notice, too that the Syrians had already agreed to a cease fire, yet the Israelis carried out the attack four hours after this cease fire. No one had any evidence that the plan was anything other than a punishment thanks to the crippling of the USS Liberty.
IMHO, this makes more sense than any of the other theories.
This incident was subtly explained by the israelis in the book “Spymasters of Israel”. The Russians had managed to intercept the intelligence being gathered by the Americans on the USS Liberty, and the Israelis discovered the leak. The Israelis asked the Americans to leave the area & plug the leak. American intransigence over the issue led to the attack.
Well, you know what people say about opinions and the Golan Heights thing was my opinion. Just because the preparation is known does not mean the Israelis would want “ears on the event.” Nothing about this whole affair makes any sense. The survivors (for the most part) are convinced it was deliberate. Wonder why that is? Recce plane flying over to identify the ship hours before the attack, two hour attack with torpedo boats trying to sink her. To say that if the Israelis wanted to sink her, they would have is an opinion not backed up by facts - they tried to sink her and as the article stated if only for the extraordinary efforts of the crew did she not sink. Their intent was to sink the ship even if it was an honest mistaken identity, the strafing attacks and surface attacks were designed to sink the ship. Don’t think I have to use sarcasm to back up the evidence provided by the survivors and what they saw and felt.
Opinions are like . . . everyone has one. It is still a mystery. The Golan Heights theory is the only one that makes sense to me and it could very well be wrong.
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