Posted on 06/25/2012 2:55:04 PM PDT by Olog-hai
The planned unveiling in London of a memorial to the 55,573 Royal Air Force Bomber Command airmen killed in World War II has sparked muted criticism in Germany, where many regard the Allied air raids that destroyed entire cities and killed over 500,000 civilians as unjustified and criminal.
Helma Orosz, the mayor of Dresden, which was devastated in an Allied attack in February 1945, criticized the plans for the monument when they first became public in 2010, and spoke to London Mayor Boris Johnson about it.
"The planned memorial triggered astonishment in Dresden and was judged critically by us in diplomatic terms," she told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "I am pleased that this exchange of views led to the monument now featuring an inscription commemorating the victims of the bombing war. The objections many people in Germany had to such a memorial have been taken seriously and I welcome this very much. It's a further gesture of reconciliation between Britain and Germany." …
The bombing raids were a response to German attacks on British cities and were stepped up massively in the summer of 1944 after the D-Day landings. Their aim was to destroy Germany's military machinery and to crush public morale.
Many Germans believe that Dresden, where up to 25,000 people were killed in the Feb. 13 raid that caused a firestorm, symbolizes the ruthlessness and pointlessness of a bombing campaign that failed to break their spirit or bring their industry to its knees. …
(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...
I will have to check it out. Tonight. It looks interesting, thanks for the tip.
Also...what is it about the word “appalling” and the English? If anyone else says “appalling” (especially the French) it just doesn’t fit. It sounds funny.
But when the British say it, it fits so much it nearly makes you want to laugh...I mean, really? Who else could say “It’s bloody appalling.” without sounding pretentious? (Except for the Aussies, of course...)
Thanks for the history lesson.
That was no longer the goal of bombing at that time. Most of the German industry was either already destroyed or decentralized enough as to not be effective targets. Much of it was hidden in cities. The Luftwaffe was becoming short on two things, fuel and experienced pilots. Starting in the last year German resources became so dear that their planes were ordered not take off to meet our fighters. As the end came near about the only way for them to get airborn was to meet allied bombers. So bombing targets became secondary as bombers main purpose eventually became drawing German fighters into the air so ours could destroy them, to the relief of our ground forces. But we still didn't send bombers up just as bait so they had to have some target in mind but targeting wasn't as important as it was before DDay. This was suspected for decades but only confirmed a few years ago.
IIRC Stalin asked the Allies for the Dresden raid. If it wasn't for Kurt Vonnegut's book Dresden would have been just another place on the list of destroyed cities of WWII.
Warsaw was one of the most beautiful cities in Europe before the War, the Germans virtually destroyed all of it.....after the war, Warsaw was rebuilt, but in the image of their Soviet masters, save for Stare Miasto, and very few of her post-war inhabitants had ties to the pre-war city, Warsaw literally had to be started back up from scratch.
So again, forgive me, if I don’t shed a tear for Dresden.
Darn. When I looked it up, there was a Google entry that said “Watch “It Happened Here” in iTunes...”
I thought “Great! I can watch it tonight...”
Turned out to be some kind of travel app for the iPad...:(
I’ll have to see if I can find it in a library or something.
It wasn't though. Does that make you sad?
It was also a very expensive war crime in terms of men and equipment. The casualties were enormous. It was not even a clever bit of evil. If you are going to commit a war crime, at least make it pay!
It paid off in spades on D-Day and beyond. No Luftwaffe.
The bombings in Japan using the A-bomb were similarly war crimes. The only excuse is that they shortened the war (which was already essentially over, anyway). That is no excuse: it was still a war crime. It was also unnecessary, as Japan was in ruins, and on the verge of starvation. Japan was ready to surrender.
Your revisionist history is BS. Of course, since you weren't around for the assault waves on Kyushu and beyond, it is easy to make. However, it makes you all the more a coward when compared to the men who faced that time in the boats.
World War II was not a pretty picture, and there is very little heroic about it.
I didn't think it was possible based on the rest of your post, but could you be a bigger fag?
If you are going to talk about such things, please remove your head from your ass. When you do, read up on the Law Of Armed Conflict (LOAC), that the US operates under. As with of the rest of your assertions on this thread, they too are BS. As to fighting terrorism, once we can get rid of the dope in the White House who thinks as you do, we'll do fine. Up until your ideological twin was elected the US killed non-uniformed combatants just fine.
Wow, docbnj! You’re clearly “educated.” Too bad you’re also so uninformed.
To everyone else:
My grandfather was bombed twice in two days by those brave, Brit airmen because they weren’t very good at their jobs. (Grand dad was 743rd Tank Bn., Sherman driver; first saw action at Omaha on D-Day. Had 5 tanks shot out from under him in 30 days.)
He said that “the Limeys” actually asked if they could give it a third attempt to make up for the other two. No sh$#. The 743rd declined their request.
My grand dad, “Guy,” ended up losing his right leg to an 88 some miles past St. Lo.
He never spoke much of the war, but when he did, he always mentioned three things:
1. He would have turned his tank around and fought those stupid, f$%^ing Limey airmen if a German had lived long enough to ask him.
2. Sherman armor wouldn’t prevent a round from coming in, but it sure would prevent it from going out. Ricochet.
3. Direct quote: “I never did get used to driving over people.”
Still makes me shiver. God bless them all.
docbnj - bite me. Seriously. You’re an ignorant tool.
Sentiments such as your grandfather’s seem to have been pretty well reciprocal among the allies. A common saying among British ground troops in the later stages of the war went something like this (from memory):
When the Kraut planes come over we open fire
When our planes come over we cheer
When the Yank planes come over we take cover...
should be required reading for anyone commenting on the morality of WWII.
- The New Dealers' War:
- FDR and the War Within World War II
by Thomas Fleming
Hmm. Got lost on the way to antiwar dot com, did ye?
...has sparked muted criticism in Germany, where many regard the Allied air raids that destroyed entire cities and killed over 500,000 civilians as unjustified and criminal...Guess they're big fans of Kurt Vonnegut.
And Glasgow. And Belfast. And Manchester. And Liverpool. And Bristol. And Cardiff.........
‘Commander Harris of the British Royal Air Force is one of the greatest heroes of the war.’.
I wouldnt go that far. Nothing to with morals, just purely from a military perspective.
The RAF were good at their job. But they are only human.
The USAF bombed its own troops in WW2. In Normandy they dropped bombs short and killed the most senior American commander to be killed in NW Europe (Lesley McNair) and almost wiped out an entire division.
S*it happens.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. Indeed, calling him a hero is far-fetched. My comment was a subconscious reaction to compensate for all the awful things undeservedly said of him. Thanks for your comments.
Interesting how the facts can change based on perspective.
Let us not forget that the Germans practised total war and targetted civilians. They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind --> Germans were kicked out of Eastern Europe, even those who had lived in Romania, the baltics etc. for centuries, nearly a millenia.
the Red army reportedly raped 2 million women when they marched into Germany. The Germans got literally hell to pay. And they paid it
But, unlike the Red army atrocities, the British bomber command actually had a sensible target and aim -- destroy the enemies ability to make war and show them how vulnerable they are. Unlike the Red Army, the British bomber command was not just 'let's give them hell for giving us hell' -- though that did undoubtedly play a part.
For helping shorten the war, Artur Harris deserves a statue.
I don’t believe the Japanese were picking about who they killed or ate — they treated everyone the same, whether Chinese or Filipinos or Brits or Indians or Australians or Americans — the same, horribly...
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