Posted on 11/17/2012 8:36:46 AM PST by kindred
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Yet the dirty bastards want to kill us all!
America has indeed degenerated into a friend and helper of the communist and islamic nations and is certainly decaying and will collapse as being just another pagan nation and enemy of God and Jesus Christ our Lord, who created and sustains and will judge all men.
That would be very nice if Muslims come to Christ during the Tribulation.
But you didn’t get it from the text.
More likely, they’ll have the mark on their forehead, seeking to wipe out Jews and tribulation saints.
Let me put this in very simple words: No where in the Bible does it say that Moses and Elijah, or even Enoch, is coming back during the tribulation.
Revelation 11:3-4, "'And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.' These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth."
These are the same two entities alluded to in Zechariah.
Zechariah 4:11-14, "Then I answered and said to him, 'What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?' And I further answered and said to him, 'What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?' Then he answered me and said, 'Do you not know what these are?' And I said, 'No, my lord.' So he said, 'These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.'"
Very simple; there are two anointed ones who stand before God who will become these two witnesses. No amount of conjecture or reasoning, even if it's taken from Bible (which can only be done so out of context), can produce solid fact that Moses, Elijah, Enoch, or any other Old Testament saint or prophet will come back and become these two entities.
I don't care what Jimmy DeYoung or any other student of prophesy says.
It’s a very widespread conjecture acccepted virtually as fact in conservative southern Protestant circles, that Elijah is one of the two witnesses. However, the other would be not Moses, whose burial is recorded, but Enoch.
The two of them never died, according to scripture. We know from scripture that it is appointed to all men once to die. That they will, for three days lying in the streets while the whole world sees it and rejoices, minus the Church which will have been removed, caught up, raptured.
This is a very old belief. Conjecture it is, however there are no other figures to fit the prophecy.
This is a very old belief. Conjecture it is, however there are no other figures to fit the prophecy.
Ok, first, the fact that they never tasted death as we know it is not a condition that they should have to come back to the earth and die. Yes, Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" but to take that verse totally out of context and apply it to Enoch and Elijah is wrong. They were of two different dispensations, two different ways of doing things, two different covenants, pre-Flood and post-Flood, and we are in a third dispensation, the Dispensation of Grace. You can't take a verse like that in Hebrews and try and make it apply to Genesis or Kings.
Second, why do we have to try and put them into the equation? Why do we have to figure out who these two individuals will be? The Bible says "two witnesses." They are in the Old Testament described as "two olive trees, two olive branches, two anointed ones." That's it; no earthly names or designation are given to them. That's good enough for me. But to say that God will bring Elijah, Enoch, Moses or anyone else from Paradise back to earth for 3.5 years, there's no Biblical truth to it.
Now it’s you who is conjecturing. You do not know they are in Paradise, they never died. To engage in conjecture myself, they could have been transported across time for all we know.
Rigid dispensationalism does a disservice, if you have broad statements of scripture, regardless of time, place, covenant or Testament, it applies broadly. Are you seriously claiming that it is no longer appointed for men once to die?
Nice. Enoch was translated, and he was not for God took him. Elijah? Chariot of Fire.
Hence - Swing low sweet chariot. Comin’ for to carry me home.
Bump for later.
Abraham’s bosom - This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase, therefore, denotes intimacy and friendship. The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was, therefore, the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there.
And Enoch walked with God — a common phrase in Eastern countries denoting constant and familiar intercourse.
was not; for God took him — In Hebrews 11:5, we are informed that he was translated to heaven.
Heaven = Paradise
Any more questions???
Paradise and Abraham’s Bosom are synonymous, they were levels or compartments of Sheol. They were not the heavens let alone Heaven. The righteous dead were led out of captivity there to Heaven by Jesus Christ according to all orthodox Christian belief, to my knowledge.
Your interpretation of Hebrews is quite at odds with the understanding of generations of Christians. That understanding being that neither Elijah nor Enoch died.
If you want to believe something else that can be plausibly backed up with scripture, it’s not a crucial matter of faith that affects salvation as far as I’m aware, so have at it. But, your insistence does not place you into even a majority let alone correct with any level of certainty.
It is as I’ve said numerous times conjecture. It will be known when that time comes.
Now, I know that came from Wikipedia but it seemed to be the best description of Sheol that I could find. A person can fall into 1 of 2 camps on this one:
1. Sheol was a place for both the righteous and unrighteous dead, or,
2. Sheol was only a place where the unrighteous dead went, and still go, to await final punishment at the Great White Throne judgment.
Most Biblical commentators that I normally reference (John MacArthur, Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, John Darby, John Gill, Matthew Henry and John Wesley to name a few) teach that Sheol, more commonly called Hades, is the place of the unrighteous dead. Paradise was the opposite and was the destination of the righteous dead.
Paradise and Heaven are usually taught as being the same place, separate from Sheol/Hades. Furthermore, I never said or suggested that I didn't believe that Elijah and Enoch escaped death as we know it. One was pretty much "beamed" to Heaven, and one got a one-way trip via flaming chariot ride.
And there are sub-theories around this, like a putative transition from the neutral/good part of Sheol to heaven and paradise.
It would satisfy a lot of human curiosity to know more about the details but I think such detail would cause us to miss out on larger issues. God hasn’t spelled them out beyond the scriptures, and we can only speculate on likelihoods.
So, with that understanding of the spirit in which my replies to you are intended, it seems you're being very broad with Christianity and applying AD to BC without acknowledging the profound impact of the birth, life and crucifixion of Jesus Christ upon Judaism and those believers who became the first Christians.
Paradise ceased to exist after Jesus Christ freed the righteous dead and led them from captivity there. Understanding the impact of that will lead to understanding the basis of the various Christian commentaries upon the matter. Hellenized concepts of heaven and hell when applied to the Old Testament Sheol of Judaism have led to all manner of vagueness and confusion.
You yourself have cited scripture pertaining to Lazarus and the rich man. Where do you suppose Lazarus was if not Paradise or Abraham's Bosom if such a level or “compartment” was merely a later addition or supposition? It's no such thing it's scriptural, right there in black and white. Parable or literal, the teaching remains clear.
Was Lazarus in hell? No. Was he dead? Yes, clearly so. Jesus Christ brought him back from death. Where was he? Same place but separated. The rich man was in great torment but Lazarus was not.
That place was Sheol. That is the Old Testament belief and the Old Testament reality. That reality changed as a result of Jesus Christ, not just due to His actions but via His very being.
What came before was not wiped out or negated or retroactively altered in some way, though. It was. What was, was not changed. That is the seeming source of confusion.
I've not even gone into the implication that Enoch and Elijah were assumed bodily into heaven. Regardless of their righteousness they were still subject to sin and therefore corrupt. Scripture is clear that corruption cannot be in the presence of the Lord. So, there's a problem with what you've posited on this as well.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, the traditional belief, among conservative southern Protestants at least with which I am very familiar, that Enoch and Elijah never died is more grounded and defensible from a scriptural basis than what you've attempted here thus far.
Whether or not the two of them will be the two witnesses of prophecy remains to be seen, but they are the only two candidates in scripture who fit. Assuming there are other, unnamed and unknown individuals who will fulfill this role is just as much a conjecture, really conjecture much more so because there is no scriptural grounding to be found for that assumption.
Does this make at least some level of sense?
I think you’re right, there was a time and a place for those profits from the past, whose to say the two witnesses aren’t new prophets for their respective time and place.
First, let's get this one thing out of the way, and I don't know how much clearer I can make it: ahem, ahem, clearing my throat here.
You said, and I quote, "Like it or not, agree with it or not, the traditional belief, among conservative southern Protestants at least with which I am very familiar, that Enoch and Elijah never died is more grounded and defensible from a scriptural basis than what you've attempted here thus far." Where did I ever state otherwise? Look at what I typed and get your facts straight before accusing me of saying something which I did not! You're arguing against something I didn't say. Let it go.
Second, let's go on to this:
You yourself have cited scripture pertaining to Lazarus and the rich man. Where do you suppose Lazarus was if not Paradise or Abraham's Bosom if such a level or “compartment” was merely a later addition or supposition? It's no such thing it's scriptural, right there in black and white. Parable or literal, the teaching remains clear.
Was Lazarus in hell? No. Was he dead? Yes, clearly so. Jesus Christ brought him back from death. Where was he? Same place but separated. The rich man was in great torment but Lazarus was not.
Now you're getting your Lazarus's mixed up. Don't forget there were 2, the beggar named Lazarus over which we're arguing about now and Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha. The two are mutually exclusive and not the same person. Which one are talking about? If you're thinking they're the same person, you're gravely mistaken, and from the sound of those paragraphs that's what you're trying to say.
Third, there are some other things you stated. They are:
1. "Paradise ceased to exist after Jesus Christ freed the righteous dead and led them from captivity there." Chapter and verse please, reference your source.
2. "I've not even gone into the implication that Enoch and Elijah were assumed bodily into heaven. Regardless of their righteousness they were still subject to sin and therefore corrupt. Scripture is clear that corruption cannot be in the presence of the Lord." Again, they were under different covenants, different dispensations. We can't take the Dispensation of Grace and apply to either one, the Dispensation of Conscience or the Dispensation of the Mosaic Law, especially Enoch.
Concerning Enoch, Hebrews 11:5 says, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." The word "translated" means "to translate, or transport." The word "pleased" means "to gratify entirely." Enoch gratified God so much, so entirely, that he took him out of the world. Don't you think that if God had a problem with Enoch and the possibility of a sin problem that He would have taken him out of the world? He loved God so much that he formed a bond with Him that was what God wanted from Adam and Eve. As such, He took him to Heaven without having to see death. End of story, case closed.
Now notice what the Word doesn't say. It doesn't say that the Lord God took him, or them (Enoch or Elijah), just so they could come back again and die a physical death.
This whole thing started because I argued that Enoch and Elijah will not the two witnesses in Revelation, and has now evolved into a huge theological debate. Dude, I can keep this up forever, how about you?
You’ve gotten very nasty despite my efforts to keep it above board and civil, so it ends here. There’s your answer.
Have a nice evening.
Corruption is what Jesus sought, the corrupt stood with Christ, He hung out with thieves, prostitutes, and murderers for a reason, a sick man needs a doctor not a well man, an individual sitting in prison will have a better chance to go to Heaven than a man who attends church every Sunday, for the first shall be last.
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