Pentagon civilian workers in Germany get raises while those in U.S. get cuts (Germans get raise)

McClatchy ^ | 2 Jul 13 | Renee Schoof

[SkyPilot]

American civilian employees of the Defense Department have put up with pay freezes and are going on furloughs starting next week, but German civilian workers at U.S. military bases in Germany are getting a pay increase.

Some U.S. lawmakers say it's unfair that the German union ver.di, which represents about 2 million workers, negotiated a pay increase in June. Sen. Kay Hagan, D-N.C., complained about the raise for German workers in a letter to Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel dated Monday and released by her office Tuesday. She asked him to suspend the raises.

[sickoflibs]

Germany is a very risky assignment in a harsh environment.

Disgruntled Nazis and communists from the old regimes are planning a comeback.

[Gaffer]

????????? Is this a sarc?

[SkyPilot]

I used to be assigned to Germany, so I understand the nation and the US basing situation better than most.

We have closed a great deal of our bases and facilities over there in recent years. In fact, the only major Air Bases in Germany these days are Ramstein and Spangdahlem, and Spang may be closing. The Army has shut down, inactivated, or sent units home in droves.

We do need at least one major Air Base there - people think we are "defending Europe" or such nonsense. What you need those bases for are jumping off and receiving points for aircraft, personnel, and equipment transiting Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

The German Nationals are not being furloughed via the justification that they are paid from a "different pot of money" as every American civilian. That is a specious argument - Sequestration was supposed to be across the board, but the real reason here is Politics. The host nation civilians could not get a pay cut without pissing off the host nation. Politics is the same reason Hagel caved to the German unions.

What is incredible to me is that NO ONE is looking our for our DoD veterans and civilians. Where is the party of Ronald Reagan on this? They have been complicit with the rape of the Dept of Defense these last few years by Obama, and they simply do not care.

Dear God, it almost seems like a far away dream that America was even the same country 30 years ago compared to today's hellish nation.

[sickoflibs]

RE :”What is incredible to me is that NO ONE is looking our for our DoD veterans and civilians. Where is the party of Ronald Reagan on this? They have been complicit with the rape of the Dept of Defense these last few years by Obama, and they simply do not care”

I had a friend I met in 1980s who worked for NSA (here at Fort Meade) directly as a GS.

From what I gather his work performance as never great but as he aged his alcohol problem became worse and worse and he ended up doing work that a trained monkey could do, He said ~ 70k or 80K with standard benefits .

He got offered the contractor alternative as many in NSA did under Bush and turned it down for obvious reasons.
Then they tried to make him miserable with reprimands and accusations and it still didnt work.

He knew he could never get a real job like that.

Eventually he was convicted of a driving offense (alcohol) lost his clearance and finally they fired him.

NSA has the same civil services rules as IRS does.

[SkyPilot]

Interesting story. Anecdotal, but thanks for posting. There is always something to learn about someones experience. I think what you are implying is that every DoD civilians is a worthless alcoholic who could never get a real job.

There are hundreds of thousands of people that support the military being furloughed - from nurses, to engineers, to maintainers.

The DoD is the largest employer in the world.

It is also the one Federal agency that steps up, answers every crisis given to it, and actually does something important (as opposed to HUD or EEOC).

I have a friend's anecdotal story too. He was severely injured while serving, and earned the Purple Heart. He left the military with honor, and is employed by the DoD as a civilian, where he does magnificent work despite his disabilities. He still loves his nation.

He is getting screwed over by Hagel, Obama, and Boehner.

But have no fear: the Food Stamp crowd is getting fatter and their cards are getting reloaded every month.

I weep for this nation.

[sickoflibs]

RE :’I think what you are implying is that every DoD civilians is a worthless alcoholic who could never get a real job.
There are hundreds of thousands of people that support the military being furloughed - from nurses, to engineers, to maintainers.”

Or that you cant fire (or lay off) just the ones who are worthless because of THEIR government union work rules, so given that the government instead furloughs a huge group of them to part time instead to save $$$(and they still get their benefits) . Apparently that is allowed.

Lois Lerner and that other IRS employee are under the same union rules, they get asked questions about their activities on the job and refuse to answer and take the 5th instead and they still get paid.

No real employer would survive with those rules. This makes it very hard to sympathize with them,

[SkyPilot]

Or that you cant fire (or lay off) just the ones who are worthless because of THEIR government union work rules

I was a military officer, and over the years, I supervised many other officers, enlisted, civilians, foreign nationals, and contractors.

The laws against arbitrarily picking and choosing which ones I would have selected for lay off or termination (if I could have done that) would have been Federal or SECDEF policy by signature, not union rules.

There was dead wood, but many other who were heroic (in all ranks). I knew contractors who were better than field grade officers, as individuals and as performers.

Despite what 95% of the public thinks, there are real and firm policies to punish those who step out of line, and I am referring to DoD civilians here. They CAN be fired, and it does not take an act of Congress either. If there is a Reduction in Force (more massive layoffs, which are coming), the seniority plays a huge role in retention, but is also does for the Airlines and many companies, so there you go.

What is so unfair about what is happening now is that no one is stepping in to stop the injustice. I will tell you right now, GW Bush or Reagan would have NEVER allowed DoD personnel, military or civilian, to be suffering as they have been under Obama. And the Republicans, in a cowardly fashion of piling on while not trying to reign in the real problem (Entitlements) are just as guilty.

Again, the DoD is a massive organization, and yes, the innocent are being punished along with everyone else.

America will pay a price for this, mark my words. We will have a "brain drain" away from Defense and the DoD. The best will leave if this keeps up (pay freezes, furloughs, layoffs, etc).

When war comes (and it will), we cannot throw Food Stamps or Medicaid at the enemy.

[SkyPilot]

This makes it very hard to sympathize with them

I have to disagree with you, although that is the majority sentiment on this board.

We are not talking about Dept of Agriculture SNAP counselors here. We are talking about people who maintain aircraft, care for our wounded, help train our uniform personnel, and manage our weapon systems.

85% of the DoD civilians work outside of DC. 45% of them are veterans themselves who served this nation in uniform.

If you cannot make that distinction, then that's on you.

[sickoflibs]

RE:” 85% of the DoD civilians work outside of DC. 45% of them are veterans themselves who served this nation in uniform.
If you cannot make that distinction, then that's on you.”

If they are direct GS employees then they hit the jack-pot at taxpayers expense.

Alternative to that NSA GS loser I personally know a number of engineers programmers etc who work for NSA as private contractors and they can be laid off very easily for whatever reason.
Some started as direct hires then moved to be contractors.

His sister works as a GS but not DOD and she is a waste of taxpayers money too.

[Future Snake Eater]

I agree. I work with a lot of gov’t civilians at my unit, and they’re very dedicated people. This furlough crap is a bad joke.

[Cyber Liberty]

It’s designed to get people pissed at the Republicans in Congress. Take a quick scan up and down this thread and tell me if it’s working?

[SkyPilot]

If they are direct GS employees then they hit the jack-pot at taxpayers expense.

How so? Most of them are not retired, they simply served for 4 years in uniform, but during those years in uniform they sacrificed and served this nation more than 90% of most Americans. Less than 1% of the population of this nation serves, and less than 7% have ever served (and that number is rapidly dwindling).

I can tell there is no getting through to you. Facts don't seem to work, you are like a Democrat who is ruled by your emotions. You have your script, and if the scene changes, you will submit script edits to force the story to comply to the sand castle you have constructed in your mind. To you, all of "them" are evil and you are the hero, even if the "them" are nurses who care for our wounded, a policeman who has been deployed to the AOR twice, or a mechanic working on Air Force aircraft at Luke AFB in 117 degree heat - and they happen to be DoD civilians getting screwed over for working hard and contributing to this nation while the great majority of America collects an Entitlement check that has not been cut one penny due to Sequestration because they are exempt.

On this thread, you have brought up stories that relate to you personally (nothing wrong with that), but your mindset is clear: these employees are either alcoholics, losers, or "a waste." Let me tell you, I have personal stories too. I know a GS-5 who makes close to nothing who takes care of a child with severe medical issues. Her husband ran out on her, and she is a Christian woman who is a hero.

My advice to you is to use the grey matter between your brain to analyze facts and let your biases against your sister or your old alcoholic friend slip by the wayside when considering what is happening to the Defense of this nation.

Have a nice life.

[SkyPilot]

I am as Christian Conservative as they come, but it is no secret that the Republicans have abandoned the military. They have allowed Obama to run roughshod over the military, and it is continuing unabated.

That famous line in "The Outlaw Jose Wales" is apt: "Don't p_ss down my back and tell me it's rainin." The Republicans want to tell the military it's rainin. We know who and what Obama is. But the GOP of Ronald Reagan is no more.

[SkyPilot]

I work with a lot of gov’t civilians at my unit, and they’re very dedicated people. This furlough crap is a bad joke.

I spoke to a 2 star general not long ago about all of this, and he was visibly shaken by what is happening. He told me even when service money was found (due to incredible cut backs to readiness and cost saving efforts) to use that money saved in order to fully pay people, they were told, in very direct terms by Washington DC: "No!"

And to see Obama pledge $7,000,000,000 last week as a give away to Sub-Saharan African dictators to reduce power blackouts, while cutting hard working American's salaries by 20% is simply evil.

I believe Obama and Hagel are deliberately punishing the DoD workforce as a way to get back at Congress. The Republican's hands are not clean on this either - they voted over 85% through their ranks in approval of the Budget Control Act of 2011 that punished Defense way, waaaaaaay more than any other agency while completely exempting exploding Entitlement spending.

[Future Snake Eater]

I saw the same thing at my level. There was no saving the gov’t civilians, but we got full funding for our contractors. We were specifically prevented from spending that money on our people. Now they’re gone and we’re severely understaffed.

[sickoflibs]

RE:”I can tell there is no getting through to you. Facts don't seem to work, ...

So to you when someone personally knows examples to back up what he has learned is going on from other sources then they are ignoring reality, if they disagree with you.

If I agreed with you the same you;d be citing those as a great set of criteria, you really handle facts you dont like....

GSs get job security at taxpayers expense far beyond what anyone having to live in the real world can imagine.
And then there's their paid leave, its a crime,

To lose their jobs ordinary incompetence or worthlessness is not enough. They have to fly off to China and spread secrets like Snowden did.

[sickoflibs]

OOOPPPS,
Snowden is a contractor not a GS, if he was a GS he’d probably be on paid leave now like Lerner is.