Posted on 01/10/2014 5:28:10 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o
Exactly. The pope is actively laying down battle lines to take away our freedoms and causing the weaker-minded Catholics to join him in the fight against those of us that support freedom from government tyranny.
[At the root of sin is people with needs, meeting them the wrong way. Yes there is the culpability aspect of having done it at the behest of Satan at the Fall of humanity.]
Well I need to say more. This is a situation where the spell of Satan applies. Satan selectively puts out spiritual light to the sinner either invested, or after salvation still affected, by him. “Suppress[ing] truth in unrighteousness.” I don’t want to imply that a whole array of choice is available to those people as is. Some choices have been obviated.
Well said, m'dear...
Sometime we ought to go read the whole bloomin’ thing to have accurate comments to make about it. Sometimes we’re just commenting about other people’s impressions. Nonetheless it appears a weak or trouble-prone spot if not actually “active.” If only weak, it could be remedied by being supplemented with more information.
Here’s where I would like to digress and point out that people never choose bad things just for the sake of the bad. They choose them because they think it’s good, in their expurgated world view. It’s the Garden folly, powered by the devil, of presuming to know good and evil when that is beyond finite human ken, but one can construct an expurgated system that presents the illusion of outlining good and evil in a neat little package.
Bless you, Mrs. Don-o!
Actions speak louder than words.
I am just looking at the title of this thread again.
Frankly I don’t give a duck about polite society. It isn’t even in the picture here. Argument on that level is going to be fatally flawed. And I certainly hope that Roman Catholic Christians will be savvy enough not to look for that false port in the storm. God is going to be victorious. Let’s laugh off any suggestion otherwise. Now the question before us is how to seize it so to be carried on to victory too.
To me as broad minded Crazy Evangelical it appears it would not matter if the prayer were assisted with a rosary or with Tinkertoys or a list on paper. And any Roman Catholic who is doing it for more than rote reasons will know this. Baptists use lists. More power to the prayers however supported. The key to success in the prayer is to make the request for God to be glorified in the situation. That’s praying according to divine promise and the result WILL, not MIGHT but WILL, be spiritual dynamite.
Yes, and that's why I oppose the Catholic system.
Pope Francis has come out as a socialist and many Catholics have gone from being quasi-conservative to socialist now in order to follow who they think is the representative of Christ. Like you say, they think it's the right thing to do.
That's why God says "Study to show yourself approved". If these people would study rather than follow, they would be approved. God wants those who care enough about Him and have enough faith to believe what the Word says without running what has been written through a church "official". Yes, look to teachers for guidance, but then decide for yourself who is worthy to guide, instead of following every "official" that is sent down the pike.
Mystery Babylon is being revealed at this moment, it's time for God's people to come out of her.
I will excuse your bigotry because I believe it is due to ignorance.
Certainly when one reaches across the aisle, one’s hand can be bitten. I accept that as par for the course. (I ask you to look in the bigotry mirror.)
If that “system” (note I mean human theology, not actual Christ who does not change) were to be likened to a Mystery Babylon, it would only be a pale shadow of what is going to be roaring down the pike in the Revelation events. We’re spoiled, and I will firmly stand by that statement. Revelation is talking about something that is utterly Christless.
Perhaps the reason why we don’t see so many Mystery Babylons in the evangelical world is because it often shies away from mysteries. That produces a pale, wan semblance of Christianity. Because there are good mysteries too!
I can talk about mysteries quite a bit, actually.
From an evangelical point of view we have solid scripture. “The mystery of godliness is great.” Now here’s an interesting detail in what follows: “Vindicated by the Spirit.”
Oh, that is so, so much more than the events of the literal bible era. Christ is vindicated by the Spirit NOW.
The acid test of a mystery is... what does it serve to vindicate, or seem to vindicate? Is glory going to God? Or to some ungodly entity? I see problems in the Roman Catholic system, but to be charitable some of them came because the church WAS open to mystery. Doing mystery means being able to get the mystery wrong or distorted. I also see problems with evangelical critiques because they discount the Conquering nature of Christ. For example, a Christmas tree is a CHRISTmas tree because of Christ. It’s been snatched out of any satanic clutches it might have attracted in the past.
Anyhow. The concern about Mystery Babylon isn’t new. Martin Luther attempted to address the influences in place, and walking out to become a physically independent worship community was a plan B which he didn’t even envision when he complained about theological abuses.
But again. If you can do mystery better, please do. It looks as though, if reluctantly and imperfectly and in fits and starts, an evangelical influence is getting into the Roman Catholic church. Francis is even part of that, and I’d be very wary of just walking up some fleshly dynamite and setting it off. Better to try to fill in what is missing. Christ with His Love is the thing that keeps any church from going all to hell, and He needs to be respected. Evangelical churches are actually pretty lukewarm due to their scant-mystery policies. Be careful that the divine “ptui” does not go your way!
(Now having been called a bigot by a Catholic, I am about to get ostracized by everybody. No friends!)
Yes, and that’s why I oppose the Catholic system.
...so, when a Pope comes out with an opinion that you wholeheartedly agree with, I assume I can come on this forum and see a similar post about the Catholic ‘system’...
Ma’am (tell me if it should be the other gender) I am not sure why you call my dissent “bigotry.” Disagreeing means disagreeing. It has nothing to do with “why” I disagree.
I’m not always diplomatic to a fine point. But I try robustly to bring the love of Christ to bear over the picture. I don’t say a rosary can’t be useful. I would dissent from some of the theological characterizations connected with particular rosary beads. I understand it to be a very revered tradition. It is a mnemonic for a list of prayers. I believe I very much grasp the sense of honor. I simply disagree with some of the referenced theology. Evangelical followings give very rational reasons for this. They are concerned with any mystery that does not (at least to them) obviously point the glory at God. At the risk of sounding utterly hateful, I could say that just because you asked an entity to pray to God doesn’t mean the entity will, or the entity is what you think it is.
I agree, sometimes it seems shallow.
I see churches composed of sinners being saved. Being sinners they can and in fact WILL sin. They will fall short of the glory of God. Yanking the chain of the 4-alarm fire bell because of the bent of a particular sin, and hollering “Mystery Babylon!”, is a bit much. Babies are in great danger of getting chucked out because of bathwater issues. And if the history of the world and bible trends are any indication, we Crazy Evangelicals and you Roman Catholics (and the Orthodox too) are going to need one another, badly. Better that we get those bridges of a common Christ, in the face of theological difficulties, in place NOW.
-— just because you asked an entity to pray to God doesn’t mean the entity will, or the entity is what you think it is -—
Unless Christ’s Church, “the pillar and foundation of truth,” confirms sainthood.
Can you tell me more about the church’s claim to be “pillar and foundation of truth”?
As Crazy Evangelicals we beg to differ. We view our (and your) rightful role as being messengers. Never dictators. It’s only logical anyhow; you can’t get any truth unless it’s from God. You and I can’t “make” truth. We propose and God disposes. When walking hand in hand with God it is the same thing. But it’s possible NOT to walk hand in hand.
The term "civilized discourse" probably doesn't do well in a headline, so he closest equivalent is that the pro-abortion, anti-life, anti-Catholic contempt should have n place in "polit society."
I agree that it's not the best phrase. It tends to connote some sort of phony "niceness" and dissimulation to me.
Thanks for a good discussion, Hi-Tech.
From your fellow Redneck.
Part of that could also be a matter of perspective. In which case we say that there is a Crazy Evangelical part of the church and a Roman Catholic part of the church. Both bearing their roles, but imperfectly yet.
Anyhow, the church at large is how truth gets expressed and borne into the world. You folks as a “denomination” are assuming that in your current incarnation you are getting everything you call truth right. We dissent about that. We try to be careful on our side too, but sometimes we slip and the slips keep us from getting overwhelmed with pride. We believe in the end there will be no denominations, only one united church. Nobody will care whether a saved Christian in heaven had been a Baptist or a Catholic or an Orthodox etc.
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