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Jahi McMath video claims to show her feet and toes move
San Jose Mercury News ^ | 1/27/14 | Rick Hurd and David DeBolt

Posted on 01/29/2014 10:00:04 AM PST by Tired of Taxes

Edited on 01/29/2014 10:02:17 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

Three weeks after Jahi McMath was taken out of Children's Hospital Oakland, a video claiming to show the girl's feet and toes responding to sensation has turned up on the Internet.

The video, posted on the "Keep Jahi McMath on life support" Facebook page on Sunday, showed a person's hand rubbing ice gently across the feet of a girl said to be Jahi, the Oakland teen who developed complications after tonsil, nose and throat surgery for sleep apnea and was declared brain-dead.


(Excerpt) Read more at mercurynews.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: jahi
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1 posted on 01/29/2014 10:00:04 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes
She is brain DEAD. The movement is called the Lazaurus effect

Prayers for the family and the eternal soul of Jahi, whom departed this earth last year.

2 posted on 01/29/2014 10:03:34 AM PST by DCBryan1 (No realli, moose bytes can be quite nasti!!)
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To: Tired of Taxes

This is about money...If the story ended in the hospital....The liability was limited to $250,000. By going this route...there is no ceiling.


3 posted on 01/29/2014 10:05:04 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Tired of Taxes
I imagine her body is in a horrible state right now. Her brain is either a big, disolved cyst in her skull, or has leaked out through her sinus's the last few weeks. Her retina and ear drum will have oozed out and fingernails falling off.

This is a very sad story, in that it was a tragedy that her family let her get the way so she had to get the surgery, second tragedy is the brain death, and third tragedy is how the family acted. They could have easily donated a majority of her organs to help save other(s) lives. Sad sad sad.

4 posted on 01/29/2014 10:06:58 AM PST by DCBryan1 (No realli, moose bytes can be quite nasti!!)
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To: All

For the record, I posted the story only because I didn’t see it here yet. I don’t even know if the video is real.

The only opinion I have is: I can understand even more now why the family is unwilling to believe the doctors.


5 posted on 01/29/2014 10:09:13 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: DCBryan1

The things you are saying have apparently not happened yet.

Why are you so invested in her being dead?


6 posted on 01/29/2014 10:09:49 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Tired of Taxes
spontaneous movements aren't rare in brain-dead patients

Correct:
Spinal cord reflexes cab be spared in these cases.
Withdrawal to noxious stimulation of the feet is a spinal reflex.

7 posted on 01/29/2014 10:14:01 AM PST by HangnJudge
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To: Tired of Taxes

Who’s paying for this?


8 posted on 01/29/2014 10:16:17 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: ifinnegan
She is dead. Legally, physically, spiritually, and morally.

There is no improvement, and no coming back unless Christ, our Lord, comes down and raises her Himself.

People are confusing brain death vs. coma.

9 posted on 01/29/2014 10:19:14 AM PST by DCBryan1 (No realli, moose bytes can be quite nasti!!)
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To: Sacajaweau
By going this route...there is no ceiling.

Yeah there is. California is a tort reform state. Non-economic damages are capped at $250,000.

10 posted on 01/29/2014 10:20:52 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: DCBryan1

I all ready know your opinion.

The question is why is it so important to you?


11 posted on 01/29/2014 10:22:12 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Tired of Taxes
There's only one physician quoted in the article about the video:

Dr. Neal E. Slatkin, a neurologist and chief medical officer at San Jose's Hospice of the Valley, said spontaneous movements aren't rare in brain-dead patients and can be seen in 50 percent or more of such patients.

The movement, according to Slatkin, could be spinally mediated reflexes or due to irritable nerves or muscle membranes reacting to the application of cold.

The movements are not an indication that she is alive, he said.

"She's brain-dead. She has no thought. She has no ability to control or interact with anything in her environment," Slatkin said. "She's completely dependent on machines and forever will be."

I don't know God's plan.

I believe Jahi, her soul, and all that made her that smiling little girl who she was, has been with the Lord since December 12.

I blame the family's attorney, Chris Dolan, for giving a family false hope for a brain-dead child.

That, of course, is only my opinion, and the opinion of every physician who has examined her, including the independent pediatric neurologist selected by the court to examine Jahi. Jahi's mother said she would accept the findings of the independent pediatric neurologist, until, of course, the physician agreed that Jahi was brain dead.

Jahi's uncle presumably believes she's dead. After all, he's the one who declared the $250,000 damages cap as 'chump change' in a press conference, and has already declared that $30 million is the more appropriate amount of damages.

12 posted on 01/29/2014 10:27:06 AM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: DoodleDawg
By going this route...there is no ceiling. Yeah there is. California is a tort reform state. Non-economic damages are capped at $250,000.

Which is why I wonder if the 'undisclosed' location that they had her transferred was to a state without tort reform.

13 posted on 01/29/2014 10:29:38 AM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: ifinnegan; DCBryan1
I am not speaking for DCBryan1, but I am very suspicious that Jahi has been known to have been deceased for quite a while and some members of the family and a lawyer are trying to fraudulently extract money from the System. I sincerely hope that I am wrong - but that is my read of this situation, and why I am interested in knowing what is happening.
14 posted on 01/29/2014 10:34:49 AM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: ifinnegan
The question is why is it so important to you?

None of your business Noob. It is also not opinion. She is brain dead. When the vent stops/fails, she will go into cardiac arrest.

It is important to keep the ignorant and the gullible into believing this is a Terry Schivo type of situation. She ain't coming back. She is not going to improve. Five (5)!!!!!!! doctors declared her brain dead. She has had all thirty three (33) tests to confirm brain death, including radioactive isotope test.

Good enough for me. The whole situation is maccabre and morbid. Half of me thinks the family is just ignorant, and/or in this whole charade for the money. Anyways, If I was declared brain dead, my family trust stipulates immediate donation of organs.

15 posted on 01/29/2014 10:44:56 AM PST by DCBryan1 (No realli, moose bytes can be quite nasti!!)
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To: ifinnegan

She is dead.... multiple doctors weighed in. There is NO brain stem activity.

This body is on machinery to keep the parents illusion of hope buoyed up. Why are you so invested in ignoring the truth? Why do you not find out about responses that have nothing to do with being alive. The ignorant woman in the video is so deeply in denial there is nothing that can be done to change her view point. Certainly you have a brain that functions well enough for you to understand more than she.

Apparently you have never sat at the bedside of a person ‘kept going’ by machinery and seen the deterioration..... bones break, skin sloughs away from bone, bruising leads to muscle rot, it is heart breaking to watch people put their loved ones through this defilement because they refuse to let go.

Already you can see that there is significant bruising on the extremities..they even have compression on the legs to minimize this effect (and it is not working).

That this youngster died (Alameda county had already issued a death certificate) is a tragic occurrence. The fact that the family is in compete denial is another form of a tragedy. IF they actually thought that this girl was not brain stem dead then they would remove her from the machines. They have not done this because deep down they must know she cannot ‘live’ without them.

This is not a case of a coherent person needing breathing assist (say an iron lung polio patient) nor is this a case of persistent vegetative state. This child is dead. I feel sorry for the parents but it does not change the facts


16 posted on 01/29/2014 10:52:33 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Sacajaweau

Actually Alameda County had already issued a death certificate.... she had been pronounced and declared not only by docs at the hospital but by additional docs ordered by the court and approved by the family. The parents just have decided that facts aren’t important


17 posted on 01/29/2014 10:54:31 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster; ifinnegan
The parents just have decided that facts aren’t important

Just like certain freepers! /sarc

18 posted on 01/29/2014 10:58:48 AM PST by DCBryan1 (No realli, moose bytes can be quite nasti!!)
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To: DCBryan1

You could have made your point without the insult. Being rude does not reflect on the person it is aimed at. It makes the person who uses it look microscopic.


19 posted on 01/29/2014 11:14:20 AM PST by Essie
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To: Tired of Taxes

I was wondering what has been happening to her. I’ve seen people on respirators come back to life and I’ve been there when they died. If you have never seen anyone die, it is instantaneous the second the soul leaves the body and very obvious.
While I don’t know what caused the complications, the Doctors knew without any tests that she was gone. They then did the tests confirming death. She is gone, her soulless body kept going artificially. The family needs to face the fact and grieve for their daughter and let her go home.


20 posted on 01/29/2014 11:20:02 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it? Do you like it, Scott? I call it, "Mr. & Mrs. Tenorman Chili.")
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To: DCBryan1; ifinnegan

I hear you. Your descriptions are accurate and factual. I do not understand the need of some to make all cases the same


21 posted on 01/29/2014 11:20:13 AM PST by Nifster
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To: DCBryan1

Definition of a noob (nice attempt to change the subject and deflect attention from your irrational obsession) is post-impeachment, which includes you.

You also need to learn what opinion is. You did not do the diagnosis. Our acceptance of the doctor’s diagnosis is all opinion on our parts.

My question is why the emotion and animosity?

You perhaps can’t answer, but your hostile response is very interesting.


22 posted on 01/29/2014 11:21:25 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Nifster

My questions were not and are not related to the diagnosis or description of being brain dead.

Those descriptions are well known and have been presented over and over.

The question is why is it so important to some that they obsess and become angry about this?


23 posted on 01/29/2014 11:26:23 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Nifster

Nifster wrote: Apparently you have never sat at the bedside of a person ‘kept going’ by machinery and seen the deterioration..... bones break, skin sloughs away from bone, bruising leads to muscle rot, it is heart breaking to watch people put their loved ones through this defilement because they refuse to let go.


Could you illuminate some of us with your firsthand experiences in this type of thing?


24 posted on 01/29/2014 11:27:12 AM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: El Cid

I can’t know the family’s true feelings or motivations.

I’m not sure in such a scenario how not accepting the brain death would help their case.

It would seem being brain death due to a recommended surgery that does not normally have a great risk would be sufficient.


25 posted on 01/29/2014 11:29:51 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

Because you are ignoring facts... magical thinking does not change FACTS. You have not answered why it is so important to you to IGNORE what already is


26 posted on 01/29/2014 11:31:39 AM PST by Nifster
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To: angryoldfatman

I already have.... and apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit


27 posted on 01/29/2014 11:32:20 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Where did I ignore facts?

You are so obsessed you can’t even think rationally.


28 posted on 01/29/2014 11:33:24 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

ifinnegan wrote: You also need to learn what opinion is. You did not do the diagnosis. Our acceptance of the doctor’s diagnosis is all opinion on our parts.

My question is why the emotion and animosity?

You perhaps can’t answer, but your hostile response is very interesting.


He’s invested in it because he thinks that makes him smarter than the bucktoothed Biblethumpers he sees on FR, like anybody who slightly questions his science-blessed opinion.

I don’t have a dog in this fight myself, but it’s interesting to see what is labeled as reflex and what isn’t. It makes me wonder how to falsify (in the Popperian sense) the diagnosis of brain-death, given the near miraculous medical capabilities we have today.


29 posted on 01/29/2014 11:34:55 AM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: Nifster

Nifster wrote: I already have.... and apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit


You haven’t given any details in this thread, like with whom or when. If you have, please point me to your post number here. Otherwise, keep insulting me in order to display your inability to rationally discuss anything.


30 posted on 01/29/2014 11:38:33 AM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: ifinnegan

people answer your question and you ignore theirs... why is it so important to you that she NOT be brain dead???

You implied that some how it was wrong for people to state the FACTS.... it is not being invested in this child’s being dead it is being invested in dealing with FACTS.

You are the only one not thinking rationally

So answer my question or just go hide


31 posted on 01/29/2014 11:39:41 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster
"Apparently you have never sat at the bedside of a person ‘kept going’ by machinery and seen the deterioration..... bones break, skin sloughs away from bone, bruising leads to muscle rot, it is heart breaking to watch people put their loved ones through this defilement because they refuse to let go."

That's awful. If you personally experienced it, I am very sorry.

32 posted on 01/29/2014 11:40:02 AM PST by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization.))
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To: angryoldfatman

I have described what happens. I have sat at many a bed side and because I chose not to give you the particular details is not an insult to you. I do not have any relationship with you other than sharing space on FR. That I chose to keep some personal parts of my life private is not a slam it is my choice.


33 posted on 01/29/2014 11:41:35 AM PST by Nifster
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To: CatherineofAragon

I have and on more than one occasion.


34 posted on 01/29/2014 11:42:06 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

All I can think to say is God bless you. I can’t even imagine.


35 posted on 01/29/2014 11:44:40 AM PST by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization.))
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To: CatherineofAragon

And as an aside, I chose to do so. Do not be sorry for me, I have done this because it is something I have chosen to do as part of my job. I try and help families understand but sometimes they will not or cannot. For me it is a mission of compassion that I try to bring to the bedside of those who are sick and dying. Sometimes it is at the bedside of those already gone from this veil of tears


36 posted on 01/29/2014 11:44:43 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

“why is it so important to you that she NOT be brain dead???”

I never said that at all.

That’s what I mean by you are irrational.


37 posted on 01/29/2014 11:45:06 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

then why even ask the question in the first place???? Facts (which you never deal with) were presented and you drop in question that to even an outside reader such as myself (because your initial comment was not to me) sounds accusatory, suspicious, and doubtful.

Perhaps you need to check yourself as to why you need to be a an irritant on a difficult situation


38 posted on 01/29/2014 11:47:03 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Understood.

I have a lot of sympathy for the family of this girl, but at some point, they’re going to have to acknowledge what has happened when reality becomes too harsh to ignore.


39 posted on 01/29/2014 11:48:41 AM PST by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization.))
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To: Nifster

Irritant?

Exactly my point. Why does it irritate you so much how this family copes with the death of their daughter or that others may take the family’s side in believing she is isn’t brain dead?

It’s none of our business, but people on these threads are quite invested in her being DEAD DEAD DEAD.

It’s bizarre and macabre and seems over the top.


40 posted on 01/29/2014 11:54:38 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Nifster; DCBryan1; ifinnegan
As stated above, I'm not sure what to think about this case, other than I can understand and sympathize with the family.

But, since the death certificate was brought up as a point, I think it should be clarified that, according to the family's attorney, the judge would not allow Jahi to be moved unless a death certificate was issued.

Here's the part where the lawyer explains:

Over my legal objections, Nailah Winkfield was cruelly made to go to the Alameda County Registrar of Births and Death to get a "death certificate" in order to move Jahi out of the hospital to a site where she could receive care. It required the intervention of the coroner because, at first, even the official at the agency didn't want to issue the certificate — after all, Jahi was connected to a ventilator and her heart was still beating.

41 posted on 01/29/2014 11:59:43 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: DCBryan1; ifinnegan

The Terry Schivo debacle nearly destroyed my faith in the medical and judicial systems. It also validated my complete distrust of the MSM. The plug pullers insisted on conflating “persistent vegetative state” (Terry’s condition) with “brain dead” (which she was not). Yes, “brain dead” is dead — but, I can understand anyone doubting the medical establishment on the question.


42 posted on 01/29/2014 12:00:21 PM PST by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: El Cid
Which is why I wonder if the 'undisclosed' location that they had her transferred was to a state without tort reform.

Shouldn't matter.

Lex loci delicti commissi.

Google "conflict of laws", "proper law," or "choice of law."

Any claimed negligence took place in California. Speaking generally, the standard rule is that, where an event happens in a state that gives rise to a claim of negligence, the proper law to be applied is the law of that state, including limitation on damages.

The family may not even be able to get jurisdiction over the hospital in another state.

43 posted on 01/29/2014 12:01:11 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Nifster

Nifster wrote: I have described what happens.


I have no way of knowing how truthful that is.

The closest thing to what you describe that I’ve seen is documentation of caretaker mistreatment or negligence, completely independent of brain-death.

My personal observations on such matters have been of my maternal grandmother and my paternal grandfather. Neither one of them were declared brain-dead; my grandmother was in a coma on a feeding tube; both were treated well.


I have sat at many a bed side and because I chose not to give you the particular details is not an insult to you.

No, what’s insulting is this snark from you:

“apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit”

Completely unnecessary and insulting. But that’s fine, I’m a grown man, I’ve been insulted worse. I give as good as I take, too.


I do not have any relationship with you other than sharing space on FR. That I chose to keep some personal parts of my life private is not a slam it is my choice.

Certainly, it’s your choice. It’s not particularly educational for me, but it’s absolutely your right to do so. So far I haven’t seen anything that backs up your claims, from you or from independent sources, but you can say whatever you want.


44 posted on 01/29/2014 12:02:09 PM PST by angryoldfatman
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To: Lx
If you have never seen anyone die, it is instantaneous the second the soul leaves the body and very obvious.

My mother, my two brothers, and I were with my father when he passed. It was obvious the instant the soul left the body.

It was so obvious that the four of us were overwhelmed by it and almost immediately began talking about it in whispers, realizing the glory that is the soul.

45 posted on 01/29/2014 12:05:44 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Well said.


46 posted on 01/29/2014 12:05:53 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Lx
If you have never seen anyone die, it is instantaneous the second the soul leaves the body and very obvious.

Unfortunately, I have (at the bedside of my late beloved father). And, you are right - there's no doubt. That's why this video caught my attention. If what we see on that video is for real - whether it's the "Lazarus effect" or whatever the reason - I can understand the mother not believing what the doctors are saying.

47 posted on 01/29/2014 12:09:13 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Wolfie

It seems the care of this patient is being covered by private donations. (?) I haven’t heard if insurance or anything else is involved in payments - probably not.


48 posted on 01/29/2014 12:14:43 PM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes
Take anything Christopher Dolan said or says with a grain of salt.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo ruled on December 24, 2013 that Jahi McMath was dead as a matter of law.

It wasn't until January 3, 2014 that Judge Grillo said he wasn't going to let Jahi's family remove her body from the hospital without a death certificate and an autopsy.

The death certificate was a formality at that point; Jahi had already been ruled legally dead in court for well over a week.

49 posted on 01/29/2014 12:20:10 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Tired of Taxes; Lx
When my father died and I witnessed his soul leave the husk of his body behind, his lungs were not being kept in motion by artificial means, so his heart was not left beating by artificial means.

I don't know what the situation was like for your loved ones, nor what affect that would have on being able to observe the soul leaving the body.

I also don't know if any of Jahi's family were present at her death to witness the soul leaving the body, but I haven't read anything leading me to believe they were.

50 posted on 01/29/2014 12:30:44 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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