Posted on 02/20/2014 3:05:32 AM PST by iowamark
I stumbled upon a Christian author I was not familiar with the other day and saw that he had written from a host of secular publications about faith. From CNN to National Journal to the Huffington Post to USA Today to the Atlantic to others — these are publications that tend to be hostile to people of traditional, orthodox Christian faith. When a Christian author is routinely published in those publications and cited as a reasonable evangelical voice by those publications, I have to think he or she is really useful idiots of Baal.
From Rob Bell to Rachel Held Evans to Donald Miller to Jim Wallis to Joel Osteen and more, these people seem to think that, if they even share the gospel (as opposed to the prosperity gospel), the gospel can be shared without every offending anyone. If only Christians would not offend people they could woo people to Christ. Truth be told, some evangelicals can be far more confrontational than need be. But, likewise, the gospel is not inoffensive. These people who think the gospel can be sold to everyone without ever offending anyone are committed more to their own house brand than to Jesus and, in so doing, prop up Baal, the god of worldly conformity, more than Christ.
The gospel offends many people. Many people will die this very day somewhere in the world because of the gospel. Frankly, I think some of these people are themselves offended by the gospel. They look at the Bible as a self-help book and redact all the stuff they themselves do not agree with. They focus on social justice Jesus and not the Jesus who said
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
They have convinced themselves Jesus really would have an opinion on a government healthcare program, but never really get into Jesus’s views on damnation, sin, and salvation.
This goes also to my concern about a lot of mega churches. I have friends who are pastors of mega churches. I have friends who attend mega churches. But I think some of the church industrial complex starts building a brand and the brand is more “Six Flags Over Jesus”, as I tend to call a lot of mega churches, and less Jesus. They focus on franchises and revenue stream and weekly attendance. To do that, Jesus can rarely be offensive. More so, the spirit in the attendees can often not be matured.
By that I mean a lot of these churches are so focused on upping the baptism count that they focus solely on “come to Jesus” and never really describe what coming to Jesus entails or how a Christian, once a Christian, grows in faith. So the people in the church run the risk of being spiritually immature or not convicted of their salvation. Here’s hint: often embracing the gospel turns people’s lives upside down and, from a worldly perspective, things end badly for them.
Christ said we should enter through the narrow gate. A lot of the media’s favorite voices on Christendom preach that the gate is as deep and wide as possible for all comers. That’s simply not true. There is only one way. There is only one path. There is only one savior. All truly are welcome. But that one path offends so many not all want to be welcomed.
John 3:10-12 lays out pretty well the three reasons people will not embrace Christ: (v.10) they do not understand the gospel; (v.11) they refuse to receive the gospel; or (v.12) they do not believe the gospel. Many of these useful idiots for Baal sell a gospel stripped of its full meaning and commitment. They should be commended for wanting all comers to come, but need to be cautioned that not all comers will come. They go all Jesus all the time and quickly strip him of masculinity, godliness, justice, righteousness, power, and the ability to save. They try to sand it down so no one can reject it, but often what winds up getting accepted isn’t the real gospel, but a wordily version of an emo, weepy Jesus who can’t throw a punch that people created and not the real Jesus who will one day return on a white horse, with a sword, to judge the quick and the dead.
Too many of these people, often hipster prophets, make people comfortable in their sin while trying to sell Jesus. One comfortable in his sin rarely sees the need to embrace one who will extricate him from his sin. These peddlers of pop Christianity are useful idiots for Baal because they claim their faith in Christ without ever making anyone uncomfortable in their here and now. Christ made people uncomfortable.
As a friend noted this passage from Bonhoeffer last night in email:
“The messengers of Jesus will be hated to the end of time. They will be blamed for all the division which rend cities and homes. Jesus and his disciples will be condemned on all sides for undermining family life, and for leading the nation astray; they will be called crazy fanatics and disturbers of the peace.”
— Dietrich Bonhoeffer, “The Cost of Discipleship,” 1937.
The useful idiots of Baal are not willing to go along for that ride. They’d rather their Jesus bake cakes for gay weddings.
That again would require the elect to also have an eternity like that of animals, while rather than making a difference btwn the punishment of fallen angels and that of the lost, the Lord places them in the same place, and only speaks of eternal torment.
As for your analogy, It's ok as far as it goes. Except that it is always risky to reason from analogy. The validity of your conclusions depend on the correspondences in the analogy.
In this case, it's not that the woman is in a perfectly great place, and the man offers to marry her and give her good stuff, or torture her, but not let her remain in the state that she is already in.
No. The situation is that she is in a poor situation, and the man offers to save her from it.
Eternal damnation is the default position of all mankind. A way to be saved from it is offered, but can be rejected. God casts no one into Hell (which I am using in the sense of a place of eternal torment). They freely choose to go there.
As far as interpretations of Revelation, I certainly do not insist that my interpretation is the correct one. I believe that it is, but this is a subject on which I am willing to concede that the possibilities that it is something else are quite substantial.
However that may be, I believe in an eternal torment of some kind, whether it consists of fire which burns that does not consume for all eternity, or just the knowledge of separation from God, and what you are missing out on. I lean toward the former.
However, I can find no Biblical justification for, say, death as obliteration and total destruction of the consciousness.
That is simply not the case but is forcing God to conform to your idea of God, as He both deals with the wicked by slaughtering them in the temporal realm and, as said, being tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:10,11)
It also says “the smoke of their torment” rises forever and ever. The original Lucy show broadcast waves are STILL eminating from our solar system and will until the universe is destroyed. However, the show only lasted a half hour. This implies that what happened to them WILL linger in eternity.
However, it could be translated that they suffer for all eternity. It’s why there is any discussion here at all. :-)
The thing is, when both sides find themselves arguing “true” meanings of words, especially words that are used in heavily symbolic and allegoric scripture, nobody wants to be “married” to tightly to their position. Honestly, my MAIN personal reason for believing the annihilation interpretation vs the turn or burn one is that it more fits with the personality of my God as presented in the bible as well as His dealings with me personally.
This is the canvas on which my interpretations of all these “Fate of the lost” opinions I have are written.
Genesis 1:26
I guess I should have said scripture that supports such a position. Using Genesis 1:26 to support it is like using John 14:2 to say that there are many mansions, when that is a grossly broad interpretation of scripture, much as translating me saying I’ll pick you up after work in my car, being translated “Cuban leaf is going to pick me up in a “limo” without knowledge of what kind of car I own.
It’s wishful thinking.
We are created in God’s image and likeness. What that really means regarding what God looks like and how eternal we are is definitely up for speculation. One could even argue that we “were” created eternal until Adama and Eve ate of the apple, and it takes the blood of Christ to get it back - blood that is not available to those that die in their sin.
As far as the mansions you mentioned regarding John 14--Jesus regularly referenced souls and people as buildings ("Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"). That passage means (to me) that we, as believers are the mansions, with our eternal, perfect bodies, living within God. There are many mansions in my Father's House.
I sincerely appreciate youar attitude about this. It actually corresponds to what the writer of the article said in his conclusion: “Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell.”
But I do take issue with you regarding this statement: However, I can find no Biblical justification for, say, death as obliteration and total destruction of the consciousness.
Fact is, most scripture that discusses the fate of the lost, especially when comparing them to the saved, if one translates the plain language, indicates permanent ending. It is the way a person would interpret John 3:16, as well as phrases like “second death”, death, destruction, etc.
I think a fun side study would be of the word “punishment”, it’s meaning and sources and the words translated to that word in scripture. Sometimes punishment doesn’t hurt at all.
God’s image is not a physical likeness-it is an eternal soul.
I could go down a serious rabbit hole here, but my point was merely that we could argue until death what “in God’s image” means since now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. i.e. we have partial knowledge that is sorely lacking to come up with a difinitive answer to the question. The answer is NOT in Genesis 1:26.
As far as the mansions you mentioned regarding John 14—Jesus regularly referenced souls and people as buildings (”Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days”). That passage means (to me) that we, as believers are the mansions, with our eternal, perfect bodies, living within God. There are many mansions in my Father’s House.
I would disagree with the author however on one point. Mega-churches are not ipso facto world-centered rather than Christ-centered.
Indeed, I've never met a person who attended Gateway in the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex who was not deeply committed to Christ and Him surpassingly above all else. No doubt there are some, but I've never met them. Then again, that mega-church preaches heavily and directly from Scripture and has many other ministries beyond the weekly service.
This link takes a different approach:
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
Thing is, when you debate subjects like this, one of two things happens. Either you change your position, or you learn better to support your position.
Within those two are all sorts of things: the stubborn person that refuses to learn anything, the person who changes their opinion with the wind, etc. But there is nothing wrong with being steadfast in ones views, if one can back them up.
Of course, you’ll always find people who disagree with you. And often they just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I confess that I fall into that rut from time to time. But it really is important to be able to support your own opinion, and often one increases that support in the tasks required to support it against someone who disagrees and can articulate why.
It’s one of the reasons I come here. I’m looking to be convinced I’m wrong. Sometimes I come across something that looks to be promising only to be disappointed. But even that experience solidifies my views in the good way.
Yes. I agree.
I can’t quite remember the bible verse that says salvation depends on the size of your local church. Lol.
LOLOL! Soooo very true, dear brother in Christ!
A very simple biblical answer: Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
I continue to be surprised by the enormity of what happened at the Cross. Sure, I understand that Jesus Christ left perfection, lived among us, and willingly submitted to being sacrificed for us. This alone is so big it's hard to appreciate how great a love this is and how easy salvation has been made for us. However, just recently Gamecock posted a thread by Steven Keller in which he points out how the civil state was separated from the religious order by the Cross because the penalty has been paid. The old order was compeletly turned upside down at the Cross. Yet today, just as in the Apostolic Era, the "wise" laugh at the simplicity of The Gospel.
We are so blessed beyond our understanding just because we have faith.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
So God is a Spirit, and that’s the sole similarity we have with Him.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God isn’t subject to our beliefs. We’re subject to His. He can do with us as He wishes as our Creator.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
But I’m sure you don’t think these “eternals” or “everlastings” mean what they say either.
And others have shown you verses that indicate the eternality of hell and the lake of fire. This understanding is what millennia of Christians have believed. Annihilationism was regarded as heresy.
I guess my question is, what if you’re wrong? Is it our responsibility to strive to know God as He is, or to strive to know god as we want him to be?
I believe God can do with us as He pleases (See Romans 9). I worship Him in His sovereignty over us. You seem to be horrified at such sovereignty. I’d venture to say that you’re Arminian in theology. I’m not, because I’d have to ignore too much Scripture, squint with both eyes, and stand on my head to reach your conclusions. :)
When the Bible says that
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
and
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What you are reading is that the "lake of fire" is a metaphor for the "second death".
What I am reading is that the "second death" is a metaphor for the "lake of fire".
In other words, we disagree on which is the reality and which is the metaphor.
Oh, well, we'll all find out plenty soon enough :)
Thanks for the link. It looks interesting. I will have to look at it later, though, as lunch time is over, and I have a meeting.
:)
;-)
Exactly. :)
Yes, you're quite correct. God is a God of justice. He gives us our wages-what we are due. And He would be unjust if He did not give us what we're due. That is, unless someone else paid our price.
But people are blinded to wanting and desiring to live a righteous life before God. They are enslaved to sin. And because they are enslaved to sin, they are free against living a righteous life.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
This is most important in understanding. Unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things unless God opens their hearts and eyes. They are like the men of Sodom groping for Lot's door but never reaching it. And they'll make all sorts of excuses. We were once like them, walking in the ways of this world. It is Christians that have been blessed through grace in understanding the mind of Christ. If we understand this principle, we can be much more tolerant of godless people living unrighteous lives and less tolerant of seasoned Christians who seem to want to join in with the frivolities.
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