Skip to comments.What's really happening in the Ukraine.
Posted on 04/07/2014 1:02:54 PM PDT by dangus
I don't claim to be able to peer into Putin's soul. I don't even claim to be an expert on Russia or the Ukraine. But if we're to have a chance of dealing intelligently in Eastern Europe, we should at least have a mastery of the basic facts. And that's where media sources, left, right and center have made complete fools of themselves. So without wanting to in any way defend the indefensible Yanukovich:
If the Russians hadn't been in Crimea, there's no way the Crimeans would've voted to join Russia.
Crimea has pretty much always been Russia since its first civilization, except for various times when the Turks had conquered it. It has never been part of the Ukraine, until 1992. It was not even part of the anti-communist Ukrainian Republic of the early 1920s. It only split from Russia when the Ukraine went democratic, but the Soviets still ran Russia. It voted in 1992 to become a fully autonomous region affiliated with the Ukraine, but then the Ukraine unilaterally revoked that autonomy. [From 1965 until 1991, it was part of the Ukrainian SSR].
The Russians want Crimea because of oil!
There is no oil in Crimea. There is no oil pipeline. The largest ports in the Ukraine are not in Crimea.
The Russians want Crimea because it is so wealthy!
Crimea possesses some potentially wonderful tourist beaches. But it is not wealthy. At all. Crimea's one of the poorest Oblasts in a poor nation; most of the wealth of the Ukraine is concentrated in Kiev.
It's 1930s Germany all over again!
Maybe. But not because of the Russians. When the mob took over Kiev, they installed several neo-Nazis to key posts.
That neo-Nazi talk is just Russian propaganda!
It refers to the Socialist-Nationalist party, also known as Svoboda, which idolizes the Banderites. The Banderites tried to prove to Adolf Hitler that they'd be valuable allies by killing an entire region's population of 80,000 Polish people. But at least the Banderites have never been ties to the Nazis' hatred of Jews. Svoboda blames Jews for ruling Russia.
Surely the HEADS of the Maidan aren't Nazis, though!
Julia Tymoshenko, the once and probably future Prime Minister of the Ukraine, was recorded in a phone conversation that the only way to establish secure rule over the Ukraine would be to kill all Russians.
No-one really wants to secede; it's just the Russians stirring trouble.
Did you miss the part about the Tymoshenko wanting all Russians killed? Was it just hot-blooded rhetoric? Perhaps, but after mobs overthrew the people they voted for, you can hardly blame the citizens of Donetsk Oblast for being wary when their leader calls for their genocide.
The Russians really just want a land bridge to Crimea.
Russia does not need a land bridge to Crimea. In fact, it would be insane to travel hundreds and hundreds of miles all the way around the Sea of Azov, instead of taking a two-mile planned bridge across the placid Straits of Kerch.
But the Russians have been causing trouble in the Ukraine all along! They poisoned President Yushenko!
My only point in bringing the following up is that the initial narrative is likely false, not to cast blame on other parties; It's really too shrouded in conspiracy to know what happened. But actually, Victor Yushenko himself believes he was poisoned by pro-EU former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko's ally, Davyd Zhvanya. His initial diagnosis was refuted by a commission established by his own legislature. Why would Tymoshenko, from his own party, want Yushenko poisoned? His poisoning helped his election; once dead, she would lead the country.
No-one would want to join Russia! It is a godless, dying society.
Russia's birth rate is up 50% in the last few years. The abortion rate is down 80%. The life expectancy has gained 5 years in just 8 years. And more than 80% of Russians now identify as Christians (Yes, church attendance is in the single digits, but church attendance isn't seen as necessary as it is among Catholics and high-church Protestants.) It's the West which is now dying out.
No-one would want to join Russia! The Oligarchs control all the income!
The top 10% in Russia earn 33% of the income. In America, they control roughly half of the income. Family-run micro-farms produce 58% of the agricultural output. The GDP has increased by a factor of 10 since the post-Soviet economic collapse.
Putin doesn't allow opposition parties!
The opposition parties hold 47% of the seats in the Duma.
Putin is a Eurasianist! He's a neo-Stalinist! He's a Socialist!
The main opposition parties are Zhirinovski's Eurasianists, the communists, and the Nationalist-Socialists. Putin regularly campaigns against socialism, economic centralization, and government control in a way few but the most ballsy Westerners do. And THAT'S why socialist Lebedev, whose newspapers' commentary dominate Western reporting on Russia, hates him.
Don’t bother asking for sources. Although I checked primary sources, there’s not a word in here you can’t verify from Wikipedia.
Svoboda Party and the Right Block are very Neo-Nazi.
Putin wanted territory, and he took it. Simple as that. (even before 0bama said he couldn’t lol)
It’s a DAMN GOOD THING there isn’t another Hitler right now with a nation like Germany behind him. He would sweep across Europe before the State Department even got out their first sternly worded press release.
Or Russia state-owned media, for that matter.
I don’t think so. Putin didn’t engineer this. He was taken by surprise. It’s important to keep in mind that the cessationists are not necessarily pro-Putin. Some are, I am sure, but not the majority, by far. This movement is not about politics; it is about cultural and linguistic self-determination.
“AlthoughI checked primary sources, there’s not a word in here you can’t verify from Wikipedia.”
Or GOP Establishment-approved media for that matter.
Or RINO-approved media for that matter.
Informative post. Thank you.
Then please don't bother posting. You've supposedly been on FR for approximately half of my lifetime and you haven't yet figured out that unsubstantiated posts are red meat for FReepers?
Absent sources a post like yours is just a mere vanity.
>> Or GOP Establishment-approved media for that matter. <<
>> Or RINO-approved media for that matter. <<
Did you read the article before posting? Because each and every point contradicts the MSM narrative directly.
Do you have any information which contradicts any of these points? Besides the Yushenko poisoning (which I noted the truth of which is just about impossible to intangle)?
Sure. I’ll post some links when you do.
Just so. Putin did not start this mess. He stepped in after violent revolutionaries overthrew the elected government of Ukraine.
And that revolution was funded by George Soros and his buddies, and the CIA.
Putin stepped in AFTER that happened. He was not about to let revolutionaries take over Ukraine and persecute the Russian speakers there, or make trouble for Russia.
Soros made a big, stupid mistake. And now the Ukrainians are paying for it.
Add to that, of course, the evident fact that Obama is a cowardly jerk and John Kerry is a ding berry. And the Defense secretary is a Communist whose assigned job is to destroy our military. And so forth.
So, Putin didn’t start this. But now he finds a golden opportunity to undo some of the agreements Russia made with the West when it was much weaker.
It’s actually considered poor form to cite references to “encyclopedic knowledge.”
There’s a lot natural gas in Crimea, especially offshore.
I read that if tapped, might eventually be equivalent of 10% of Ukraine annual consumption.
Russia is going to build a pipeline to Crimea, will take 2 years.
Thanks for the post.
The Soviet Union gifted the Crimea to Ukraine in 1954.
The Russians want Crimea for Sevastopol, its only warm water port.
Poverty engenders many extremist parties.
Because oil is at ~$100 Russian income is at around $22k GDP per capita and the neo-Nazi movement very prevalent in Russia in the 90’s has receded. Most of Russia’s wealth is concentrated in Greater Moscow. Calling the Russian Communist Party and A Just Russia Party headed by one of Putin’s close buddies “opposition” parties is a farce. They are a window dressing for Russian “democracy.” They are part of Putin’s state apparatus.
Ukraine with a GDP per capita of ~$4k is a breeding ground for extremist of all kinds including Neo-Fascist. There are strong Neo-Fascist(Nazi) movements inside the EU like Hungary, Austria, and Greece. But they are a small minority in Ukrainian Government.
Ukrainians have the right to protest and Parliament has the right to remove the president, which the Ukrainian Parliament exercised. No coup.
Thought this might be of interest to you.