Civil War in Ukraine (But Please Don't Call it That!)

Townhall.com ^ | May 4, 2014 | Mike Shedlock

[Kaslin]

A civil war is underway in Ukraine. Curiously, no one has labeled it as such even though the Ukrainian government launched an offensive, helicopters were shot down, dozens were killed in the process, and military operations took place in multiple cities.

[Always A Marine]

Good grief. A professor of Semantics, with multiple degrees in Excuse-Making.

No, I merely asked you to provide examples in support of a dubious assertion that Russia has been expanding westward. You replied with three very weak examples which I questioned. The fact remains that NATO has made three major expansions since 1994 and is now positioned on Russia's borders. Many here now expect Russia to sit back and allow the Black Sea to become a NATO lake, and I believe that is both wishful thinking and dangerous policy.

[1rudeboy]

"dubious"
"weak"

LOLOL

[FreeReign]

But NATO wanted them, and control of the gas lines.

NATO doesn't recruit nations nor do they control gas lines.

We stuck our nose under the tent.

US involvement was/is minimal.

Putin will not tolerate us playing on ground that has traditionally been Russian territory.

Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

[ansel12]

It is one thing to see an argument of how to best restrain and oppose Russian military goals and operations, I did not expect to be arguing with an element that supports Russian empire over NATO and America.

[Timber Rattler]

Russia is threatening the U.S.? How so?

[1rudeboy]

And that’s the crazy thing, isn’t it? “Empire-building” is only bad when the U.S. does it . . . and can someone show me this “empire” we’re building?

[Timber Rattler]

The fact remains that NATO has made three major expansions since 1994 and is now positioned on Russia's borders.

And then there was this little push from 2008:

Bush Vows Support for Ukraine, Georgia NATO Hopes

And folks wonder why the Russians react like they do?

[ansel12]

Why do you think NATO is having to go on alert, that NATO budgets are being reversed to increase spending, troops are being moved, and nations are looking to join NATO for protection?

[1rudeboy]

Because everyone knows NATO is a threat to Russia. Never mind the other FR threads where we laugh at NATO for not being able to do much at all.

In any case, wasn't Russia asked to join NATO (in some fashion)?

[Always A Marine]

NATO doesn't recruit nations...

Well that's a new one to me, given my own personal involvement in the process. The whole "Partnership for Peace" program back in the 1990s was nothing but a recruitment tool for NATO, and we were very open about that fact.

Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

Of course it does. But it doesn't have any right to expect that help, or to deny its adversaries from doing the same.

[FreeReign]

Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

Of course it does.

Good, end of story.

But it doesn't have any right to expect that help, or to deny its adversaries from doing the same.

I don't seeing anybody arguing differently.

[FreeReign]

seeing —> see.

[FreeInWV]

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea . . . .

Don’t forget Transnistra. Like those other autonomous states, it’s people had not wanted to separate from the Soviet Union years ago. It fought a war so it wouldn’t be under Moldovan control, just like South Ossetia fought 2 wars so it wouldn’t be under Georgian control. Eastern Ukraine is a collection of autonomous states too. They just got lumped into nations they did not want to be a part of when the USSR broke apart. Many referendums and elections were held reinforcing their autonomy (95%+). The US and EU would not recognize them. Landlocked Transnistria is currently blockaded thru an export ban in an effort to break their will. The EU also has a travel ban on many of their leadership.

Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia are post-Soviet “frozen conflict” zones. These four unrecognized states maintain friendly relations with each other and form the Community for Democracy and Rights of Nations.

[winner3000]

You make it worthless by reneging on all the assurances represented on that paper, with your signature on it...kind of like the liberals would like to do with their oath to the Constitution!

[Always A Marine]

Good, end of story.

Since this is not an academic exercise, the end of the story will be determined by the two opposing sides. We are neither, by the way.

[grania]

That paper wasn't a treaty, as it was never ratified and signed. I do think a majority of US citizens are war-weary and have no desire to fight in Europe, or anywhere else unless it's to defend our borders. The reason the anti-war sentiment is muted is that both political parties have gone war-crazy and we don't have much say about what goes on in DC. A lot of us expect the US will implode in the not too distant future.

Maybe it's time for Ukranians to get it together, east and west, or if they can't do that, separate into two nations.

[FreeReign]

Good, end of story.

Since this is not an academic exercise, the end of the story will be determined by the two opposing sides. We are neither, by the way.

Of course. You take the wrong meaning from my "end of story" comment.

Both you and I think Ukraine has every right to ask for help from anybody.

End of debate between you and I.

[Always A Marine]

End of debate between you and I.

Unless you believe that the United States or NATO should extend any such help to the government in Kiev. I hold that the future of Ukraine is not our fight and is none of our business.

[FreeReign]

End of debate between you and I.

Unless you believe that the United States or NATO should extend any such help to the government in Kiev. I hold that the future of Ukraine is not our fight and is none of our business.

That would be a new debate.

Quckly...

If the Ukrainian people wanted to be part of NATO, I would extend an invite. However currently, I believe the majority of Ukrainian people don't want to be part of NATO...although that may change given Putin's actions.

I would tell NATO countries that they need to spend more on their own defense.

If I was Ukrainian, I would want to join NATO, I would not want to be annexed by Russia and I would NOT want to be be part of the EU.

[Always A Marine]

NATO has outlived its purpose, which was to defend Western Europe from Soviet invasion. Without that founding purpose since the early 1990s, NATO has embarked upon a rapid expansion to the borders of Russia and is now attempting to spread to Russia's southern flank along the Black Sea. In any historical context this is a provocative and threatening move, and a precursor to war. And no matter how likely or unlikely that war might seem at a given moment, nations must plan their defenses for an uncertain future.

Admission of additional NATO treaty members has only increased the likelihood of unintentional war. Why have we committed American sons and treasure to war on behalf of Slovenia or Bulgaria or Romania? Nothing that can happen in any of those countries will affect our national security, but those nations may now drag us into war over disputes in which we have absolutely no interest. NATO must be disbanded before its treaty drags us into a war that we do not want to fight and should not have to fight.

This permanent war treaty -- which lingers on without its original purpose -- is exactly what George Washington warned against in his Farewell Address. And it was Washington's wisdom which Thomas Jefferson confirmed when he declared "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." We would do well to revisit our founders' wise words in these dangerous times.