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Court Says Police Allowed To Kidnap Gun Owners With No Warrant
Western Journalism ^ | 5/22/14 | B. Christopher Agee

Posted on 05/22/2014 6:12:21 PM PDT by blueyon

Court Says Police Allowed To Kidnap Gun Owners With No Warrant Sutterfield pleaded with them, insisting she was in no danger...

The ongoing saga revolving around pro-gun activist Krysta Sutterfield could be seen as a troubling portent for all Second Amendment supporters. The Milwaukee, Wis. resident made some local news prior to this incident for toting a handgun to church and carrying outside a nearby coffee shop.

Like millions of Americans, she went to see a psychiatrist a few years back in an effort to sort out some personal issues. When she mentioned something about suicide during one session, the doctor went straight to the authorities.

(Excerpt) Read more at westernjournalism.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; donutwatch; guncontrol; obama; policestate
Moral of the story..................I would think it is stay away from psychiatrist but what do I know
1 posted on 05/22/2014 6:12:21 PM PDT by blueyon
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To: blueyon

Indeed. No psychiatrists, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc. They’re all agents of the government now. Welcome to the Fourth Reich.


2 posted on 05/22/2014 6:15:00 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: blueyon

An apple a day keeps the guns in your house.


3 posted on 05/22/2014 6:15:03 PM PDT by Rodamala
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To: blueyon

No, the moral of the story is that unless the SCOTUS overturns this decision there is no limiting principle that restrains police from entering your home absent a warrant so long as they “feel” they need to.


4 posted on 05/22/2014 6:16:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: blueyon
The lesson of this case: ALL of the Bill of Rights matter.

In this case, the Fourth Amendment was trashed so the Second Amendment could be trashed. If any of the rights in the BOR are destroyed, the others are greatly vulnerable.

5 posted on 05/22/2014 6:22:09 PM PDT by Repeal 16-17 (Let me know when the Shooting starts.)
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To: blueyon
If she told a psychiatrist she was contemplating suicide, the psychiatrist was obliged by law to report it.

If the police receive a report that someone intends to harm herself, that constitutes probable cause.

It is also grounds for an involuntary psych hold.

These are not radical new developments. This has been the law for decades, even centuries.

6 posted on 05/22/2014 6:24:29 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: jwalsh07
unless the SCOTUS overturns this decision

Not likely

There will be no refuge in the courts for defenders of liberty in America.

The federal courts are not going to uphold the Constitution or defend our liberties. The people help themselves, or they are SOL.

7 posted on 05/22/2014 6:24:38 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: wideawake

“If she told a psychiatrist she was contemplating suicide, the psychiatrist was obliged by law to report it.

If the police receive a report that someone intends to harm herself, that constitutes probable cause.

It is also grounds for an involuntary psych hold.

These are not radical new developments. This has been the law for decades, even centuries. “

You raise a good point, wish we could find out more about this story


8 posted on 05/22/2014 6:31:20 PM PDT by blueyon (The U. S. Constitution - read it and weep)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

Probable cause is enshrined in the Constitution. Why would SCOTUS overturn it?


9 posted on 05/22/2014 6:32:39 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

thanks for a reasoned response...


10 posted on 05/22/2014 6:36:30 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie
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To: wideawake

There is a lot left out of this story, but going on what is stated here, the police were not justified in storming her house and incarcerating her.

The word of one “expert” with no other documentation or history of corroborating events, is not sufficient for “probable cause”. That is a major slippery slope, one the fascists will eagerly use against any sort of political dissent.

Probable cause is for serving a warrant, not for storming the Bastille. The police are not even required to knock on the door and announce their presence and intent? BS


11 posted on 05/22/2014 6:41:50 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: jwalsh07
there is no limiting principle that restrains police from entering your home absent a warrant so long as they “feel” they need to.

There is a limiting force at one's disposal should logic, reason and morality fail to keep the constabulary from entering. More citizens will begin to avail themselves of this force and cops will die as a result. But then, I suppose that's why there is such a push to grab all the guns.


12 posted on 05/22/2014 6:44:36 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Only Liberals can look at an amendment that says "shall not be infringed" and see blank parchment.)
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To: blueyon

If you want to be able to buy or own a gun, be very, very careful as to what you say and who you say it to.


13 posted on 05/22/2014 6:45:33 PM PDT by sport
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To: blueyon

Doctor went straight to the authorities??? Is that proper? Is that ethical?

So now people have to be very guarded in what they tell their doctor? Can’t blame this one on the government - what has happened to the medical community?


14 posted on 05/22/2014 6:48:31 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: ChildOfThe60s
A sworn affidavit from a medical professional is indeed probable cause, and if exigent circumstances are present (like someone threatening to kill herself) the police can proceed without a warrant.

Again, this is not new.

15 posted on 05/22/2014 6:53:05 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: blueyon
I would think it is stay away from psychiatrist but what do I know

I agree. You would have to be crazy to open up to a psychiatrist.

16 posted on 05/22/2014 6:53:43 PM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: wideawake

Excellent points.
Hard to see the psychologist or cops at fault here.


17 posted on 05/22/2014 6:56:48 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: MichaelCorleone
So now people have to be very guarded in what they tell their doctor?

Yes. We have examples for and against this principle. Jared Lee Loughner demonstrated psychotic behavior prior to the shooting, but nobody paid any attention to that. Adam Lanza was seen by a psychiatrist, but not often, and he was allowed to go entirely insane. On the other hand, we have this situation where, perhaps, the LEO overreacted, but nobody got killed.

Doctors are more likely to learn about a danger; however everyone can face this situation. An inebriated friend trying to get into his car is just one example. What should be done about it? It's a matter of what the society wants to build: a Wild West world on one end, and the herd of sheep who'd pay anything for absolute safety on another - or something in between. The government, of course, wants the sheep option to become the new reality, no matter what the Constitution says.

18 posted on 05/22/2014 7:03:15 PM PDT by Greysard
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To: blueyon
Liberals probably believe this is their way to ban guns.

EXAMPLE: you're pulled over for speeding, improper lane change, whatever, and it is "discovered" that you own a gun (or guns), or even (horror!!) that you have a conceal carry license (you were probably targeted to be pulled over as the cops already know you own guns), you'll be forced into a psych eval, where it will be determined that you should not be allowed access to firearms.

Voila! You lose forever your right to own a gun. Do this to enough people and the libs figure they can handle the few remaining gun owners.

19 posted on 05/22/2014 7:04:41 PM PDT by jeffc (The U.S. media are our enemy)
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To: blueyon; xzins

In many states suicide is no longer illegal and assisted suicide is acceptable. As long as suicide is considered a normal behavior and no longer a crime, the police have no justification for attempting to prevent any person from offing themselves.

Thus in states that sanction suicide as an alternative to a natural death, the state has no compelling interest in forcing a person into an involuntary commitment.

That being said, I think it is really a stupid idea these days that if you have psychiatric problems that you discuss them with a psychiatrist. I would suggest finding a gun loving red neck church with a pastor or pastoral staff that has experience in spiritual counseling.


20 posted on 05/22/2014 7:06:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds)
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To: P-Marlowe; blueyon
That being said, I think it is really a stupid idea these days that if you have psychiatric problems that you discuss them with a psychiatrist. I would suggest finding a gun loving red neck church with a pastor or pastoral staff that has experience in spiritual counseling.

I agree for the most part. Psychiatrist's really have no commitment to confidentiality in the way that a good priest/pastor in the Christian tradition will have. Psych's have the dodge about "injuring someone else or yourself." And that can be stretched to cover just about anything.

How do you tell a good priest/pastor? They are the ones who won't even acknowledge that they talked with you. It never gets to the stage of "what did he talk about?"

Point 2, don't confide in a note taker. Period. If he has to write down what you're saying, then he has files.

21 posted on 05/22/2014 7:11:37 PM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: P-Marlowe

How about Jesus loving.

If anyone was born a redneck He was.


22 posted on 05/22/2014 7:32:08 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

“Probable cause is for serving a warrant...”

Exactly right. The police make their case for probable cause and if the judge concurs, a warrant is issued. Cops deciding on their own that they have probable cause won’t wash.


23 posted on 05/22/2014 7:51:24 PM PDT by beelzepug (You can't fix a broken washing machine by washing more expensive clothes in it.)
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To: blueyon

The governing class is looking for any way it can deny, at its option, to suspend the Constitution in any way it can, big and small. Since shrinks work is very subjective based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (the “DSM”) a book that few average people even know exists, a person cannot know to what standards they will be held should they interact with a mental health professional.

Putting aside how many shrinks are raging leftists, it is my opinion that a person interacts, even informally, with mental health professionals at grave peril to their Constitutional rights. I think that the only course of action for anyone who is forcefully “evaluated” against their will should be to say that they reserve the right to remain silent.


24 posted on 05/22/2014 8:27:52 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: jeffc

Few remaining? Up to 100 million Americans own firearms. I sincerely doubt your logic will be able to hold up to such numbers, regardless of the fact that I also believe that such a ruling is detrimental to the lawful owners of firearms.

They can continue to attempt to slowly encroach upon our rights, but sooner or later they will get overly ambitious and go just a little too far and the dance will begin.

The real question is, who is prepared to put their money where there mouth is and stand up for their rights, regardless of the consequences.


25 posted on 05/22/2014 8:51:40 PM PDT by Pox (Good Night. I expect more respect tomorrow.)
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To: blueyon
Moral of the story..................I would think it is stay away from psychiatrist but what do I know

Yep. Got a problem? A good friend and a good bottle of something dark and at least a decade old should do the trick...

26 posted on 05/22/2014 9:14:01 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: wideawake

The thrust of the story suggests something else — not to say your assessment is incorrect.


27 posted on 05/22/2014 9:18:12 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: wideawake

I concede your points.

But we are usually at a disadvantage debating because the facts, such as they presented here, are inadequate.

I’d like to see a much more detailed timeline of the events. I’d also like to know the details of just exactly how the cops went into her home and how they handled her. None of which we will ever find out without the court transcripts. Even this, it’s he said/she said.

I’d like to know a lot more about her history with the local authorities. Is she the local nutcase or a rational gun activist who is in their sights?

Since I am wishing for what I can’t have, I’d like to hear in detail what she claims to have said to the shrink & what he claims to have heard. Verbatim.


28 posted on 05/22/2014 9:22:23 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: wideawake
Again, this is not new.

So true, the bill of rights has been so watered down by the government over the years with exceptions, loopholes and just outright throwing out any of it that they find to be temporarily inconvienient, that we shouldn't be surprised at all when police storm your house, kill your dog, and take you into custody for something you said to some quack.

We're nothing but federal property. Walking wallets that must conform to the will of our masters.

29 posted on 05/22/2014 9:26:40 PM PDT by zeugma (Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss)
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To: beelzepug
Cops deciding on their own that they have probable cause won’t wash.

Given the right circumstances it can. But this piece is very short on facts and details. Unless all of this happened pretty damned fast with very strong sense of immediate urgent danger, which my gut says is not the case, a judge, a warrant and a knock on the door should have been all that was required. People get Baker Acted all the time and it doesn't happen as described here. Cops just don't go busting in without a warrant on every person that a shrink says *may* present a danger to themselves.

If this doctor burst into the police station claiming this woman clearly stated that she was going home to kill herself as soon as she got home, that they literally had minutes to spare before she stuck a gun in her mouth, that's one thing. That's also not what is inferred here as I read it. I just get the feeling that there is a lot of fudge room here.

30 posted on 05/22/2014 9:34:54 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: sport
If you want to be able to buy or own a gun, be very, very careful as to what you say and who you say it to.

A few decades ago I met and spoke with the famed attorney Melvin Belli. One thing I learned from him, is to be careful what you say. Rather than say something directly implicating yourself, use the third person in speech.

"Some might say that you're a (insert objectional words), but not me."
"Someone I know is depressed and suicidal and feels (insert what you're feeling), what should they do about it?"
"Someone says Obummer is a sh*thead and wants to kick his a** to shreds, I would never say so, but that's what someone is saying."

You get the point.

31 posted on 05/22/2014 11:06:05 PM PDT by roadcat
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To: jeffc

True, but they will get more through domestic violence laws now that Sota ayor has changed the rules.


32 posted on 05/23/2014 12:28:11 AM PDT by Pikachu_Dad (Impeach Sen Quinn)
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To: zeugma
Again, there was no mythical time in America's history when there were no exceptions to Constitutional protections.

In the Founders' days there was civil commitment of debtors.

There were post facto warrants secured by affidavit then as well.

This woman has legal recourse if her rights were violated.

She will have her day in court.

Would it have been better if she had snapped, killed innocent people, killed herself, and then became the occasion for hundreds of headlines about: "Gun Rights Advocate Goes on Rampage"?

What the left needs most are so-called conservatives who never think anything through and who do whatever comes into their heads without reflection.

33 posted on 05/23/2014 4:17:06 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: JPX2011
No psychiatrists, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc. They’re all agents of the government now. Welcome to the Fourth Reich.

It's getting that way, sorta like living in occupied territory.

34 posted on 05/23/2014 6:35:30 AM PDT by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: wideawake
This woman has legal recourse if her rights were violated.

She will have her day in court.

She's lucky they didn't just kill her on the spot. I'm sure she'll get all the 'justice' from the government that she can stand.

35 posted on 05/23/2014 7:21:20 AM PDT by zeugma (Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss)
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To: JPX2011

I’ve told my cardiologist exactly where I stand, but he won’t report me to the “authorities”. What are the odds that a fiftyish Jewish doctor would agree with me on Obama, the constitution, the expanding “taker” class, repealing Obamacare...

I love the guy!


36 posted on 05/23/2014 8:01:06 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: Pox
I sincerely doubt your logic...

Not me! It's what liberals believe, or want to believe. I know it'll never happen, but I don't live in liberal la-la-la land. You don't think liberals would love to do this?

37 posted on 05/23/2014 8:01:47 AM PDT by jeffc (The U.S. media are our enemy)
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To: Pikachu_Dad
True, but they will get more through domestic violence laws now that Sota ayor has changed the rules.

That, too!

Ever get the feeling that liberals aren't very... well, "liberal"? True children of the novel, 1984, where the Ministry of Truth's job was to tell lies, liberals are anything "liberal".

38 posted on 05/23/2014 8:05:47 AM PDT by jeffc (The U.S. media are our enemy)
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To: blueyon

Sounds like psychiatric hospitals will soon be the new concentration camps.


39 posted on 05/23/2014 10:35:38 AM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be earned and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: zeugma
She was apparently planning to kill herself on the spot before they interrupted her weekend.

If the Trilateral Commission or The Illuminati or whoever wanted her dead, they had a ready-made excuse: her psychiatrist said she was suicidal.

40 posted on 05/23/2014 3:27:38 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: ChildOfThe60s
OK, I said I thought something smelled funny, & it looks like I was right. More details of the police invasion.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/sutterfield-vs-milwaukee/

41 posted on 05/23/2014 4:00:49 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: wideawake

You know that when ever you have to bring the trilats or illuminati into a discussion that whatever you’ve got is pretty weak. It must really suck being an apologist for the police state.


42 posted on 05/23/2014 5:20:30 PM PDT by zeugma (Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss)
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