Posted on 02/03/2015 6:15:19 AM PST by Kaslin
Among Cold War presidents, from Truman to Bush I, there was an unwritten rule: Do not challenge Moscow in its Central and Eastern Europe sphere of influence.
In crises over Berlin in 1948 and 1961, the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and the Warsaw Pact invasion of Prague in 1968, U.S. forces in Europe stayed in their barracks.
We saw the Elbe as Moscow's red line, and they saw it as ours.
While Reagan sent weapons to anti-Communist rebels in Angola, Nicaragua and Afghanistan, to the heroic Poles of Gdansk he sent only mimeograph machines.
That Cold War caution and prudence may be at an end.
For President Obama is being goaded by Congress and the liberal interventionists in his party to send lethal weaponry to Kiev in its civil war with pro-Russian rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk.
That war has already cost 5,000 lives -- soldiers, rebels, civilians. September's cease-fire in Minsk has broken down. The rebels have lately seized 200 added square miles, and directed artillery fire at Mariupol, a Black Sea port between Donetsk and Luhansk and Crimea.
Late last year, Congress sent Obama a bill authorizing lethal aid to Kiev. He signed it. Now the New York Times reports that NATO Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove favors military aid to Ukraine, as does Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel. John Kerry and Gen. Martin Dempsey of the joint chiefs are said to be open to the idea.
A panel of eight former national security officials, chaired by Michele Flournoy, a potential Defense Secretary in a Hillary Clinton administration, has called for the U.S. to provide $3 billion in military aid to Ukraine, including anti-tank missiles, reconnaissance drones, Humvees, and radar to locate the sources of artillery and missile fire.
Such an arms package would guarantee an escalation of the war, put the United States squarely in the middle, and force Vladimir Putin's hand.
Thus far, despite evidence of Russian advisers in Ukraine and claims of Russian tank presence, Putin denies that he has intervened. But if U.S. cargo planes start arriving in Kiev with Javelin anti-tank missiles, Putin would face several choices.
He could back down, abandon the rebels, and be seen as a bully who, despite his bluster, does not stand up for Russians everywhere.
More in character, he could take U.S. intervention as a challenge and send in armor and artillery to enable the rebels to consolidate their gains, then warn Kiev that, rather than see the rebels routed, Moscow will intervene militarily.
Or Putin could order in the Russian army before U.S. weapons arrive, capture Mariupol, establish a land bridge to Crimea, and then tell Kiev he is ready to negotiate.
What would we do then? Send U.S. advisers to fight alongside the Ukrainians, as the war escalates and the casualties mount? Send U.S. warships into the Black Sea?
Have we thought this through, as we did not think through what would happen if we brought down Saddam, Gadhafi and Mubarak?
America has never had a vital interest in Crimea or the Donbass worth risking a military clash with Russia. And we do not have the military ability to intervene and drive out the Russian army, unless we are prepared for a larger war and the potential devastation of the Ukraine.
What would Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon or Reagan think of an American president willing to risk military conflict with a nuclear-armed Russia over two provinces in southeastern Ukraine that Moscow had ruled from the time of Catherine the Great?
What is happening in Ukraine is a tragedy and a disaster. And we are in part responsible, having egged on the Maidan coup that overthrew the elected pro-Russian government.
But a greater disaster looms if we get ourselves embroiled in Ukraine's civil war. We would face, first, the near certainty of defeat for our allies, if not ourselves. Second, we would push Moscow further outside Europe and the West, leaving her with no alternative but to deepen ties to a rising China.
Given the economic crisis in Russia and the basket case Ukraine is already, how do we think a larger and wider war would leave both nations?
Alarmists say we cannot let Putin's annexation of Crimea stand. We cannot let Luhansk and Donetsk become a pro-Russian enclave in Ukraine, like Abkhazia, South Ossetia or the Transdniester republic.
But no one ever thought these enclaves that emerged from the ethnic decomposition of the Soviet Union were worth a conflict with Russia. When did Luhansk and Donetsk become so?
Rather than becoming a co-belligerent in this civil war that is not our war, why not have the United States assume the role of the honest broker who brings it to an end. Isn't that how real peace prizes are won?
Then why not just say it if you believe it. Do you really think the Dutch society, the German society, the Czech society, the Italian and Spanish societies,,, are ready to send their armies to go fight a shooting war, in eastern Ukraine, in the same place the Germans invaded and mass murdered their way through?
You dance all around it with NATO talk, but do you think those nations actually want any part of refighting the eastern front of WWII?
Remember, NATO was a defensive alliance. Or more accurately, an alliance designed to ensure we always will defend them from external attack.
Russia is invading a nation on NATO's border.
First no one is talking of invading anyone, except for your side, which is actually doing it, and of course I believe that NATO is real.
The issue is sanctions and supplying defensive weapons to Ukraine, and while we are still friends with Ukraine and conduct peaceful military exercises their, no one is talking about contributing NATO forces to fight on their soil.
You are stupid enough to think that I am a defense contractor for absolutely no reason other than you just post goofy things on the internet?
Because there are onion dome churches there, and everyone speaks Russian and eats borscht. It isn’t submitting to see what is simply none of our business.
I don’t see Russia invading Europe. I’ve seen the EU try to push NATO, literally right up to the Russian border, and then act SHOCKED that the Russians seem threatened and react.
This isn’t rocket science...(well, I guess it could be eventually if McCain and Obama have their way.)
Battle of Salsu; 612 AD
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Salsu)
350,000 Sui Dynasty Chinese vs 10,000 Goguryeo Korea.
“This led to an overall campaign loss of all but 2,800 Sui troops out of 350,000 men.”
(Almost no casualties among the Koreans)
Im not NATO. Im an American. NATO is defensive. If it was Offensive, then its just a club where Europe gets to pick who to invade and we get to supply the muscle.
No dice.
We are seeing Russia trying to kill their way literally up to NATO’s borders, and you support it.
If you don’t think that Russia is going to invade us, then quit worrying, we will continue to find ways to support Ukraine through sanctions, and aid.
“NATO is defensive”
You are catching on now, perhaps we can talk about Russia as the invader, and quit the straw dog arguments that we are invading Russia.
Ukraine becoming part of NATO puts NATO 300 miles from Moscow. Given that Russia lost 20-30 million people in WWII to the Germans (who a mere decade before seemed defeated), do you think it is likely they will permit Ukraine to become part of NATO?
How would the US react if North Carolina became an independent country, and then China tried to form a military alliance with North Carolina?
The citizens of the (former) United States of America are standing on the shifting sands of a nation that is on the brink of collapse; morally, culturally and economically. They have allowed their educational system to deteriorate to such an extent that the general public is civically illiterate. They have twice elected a President who is clearly bent on the “transformation” of the what once was the greatest nation, healthcare system and value system on earth to just another third world jumble of chaos. And, I might add, has been hugely successful due to the aforementioned civically illiterate population.
And yet, they applaud and cheer the efforts of a malignant narcissist President to instigate, create and encourage chaos by turning his back on tried and true methods of working with allies, who, though not of our ideology, have kept relations from being unmanageable between our nations(Gaddafi, Mubarak and now Netanyahu).
Has everyone forgotten that this President has watched American citizens publicly beheaded along with citizens of other nations and done absolutely nothing and said very little? Has everyone turned a blind eye to our President refusing to call the faction that murdered thousands of us in cold blood terrorists? Has anyone forgotten our President regularly entertaining subversives who encourage and applaud the murder of our law enforcement officers? Has everyone forgotten that our President and his Administration blatantly labored to free a deserter that caused several of his brave fellow soldiers to be killed?
There isn’t enough bandwidth to list all the subversive and traitorous acts that have been committed by this imposter and his minions that we are trusting to send our blood and treasure on his misguided, underhanded attempts. Benghazi is another cloak and dagger, secret operation that cost American lives with no mention of any retribution.
And yet, the American public stands ready and willing to have their attention diverted time and again by the international upsets that are gleefully picked up and magnified by Obama’s dutiful propaganda machine so as to divert attention from the absolute destruction that is going on right under our noses in our own country!
By all means; boots on the ground in a foreign country while our own is being flooded with foreign invaders and a bunch of Communist/Marxist Liberals finish us off!
Ok, ill stop worrying because I don’t see any sign that Russia is killing their way up to NATOs border, or planning to invade us.
The pure fact is that NATO has relentlessly expanded eastwards, and has started bloody wars to expand the EUs grasp. Kosovo, Libya, etc.
Discussing this with you is becoming circular and I don’t think you have the critical thinking skills to continue this any further. You seem to think this is 1960. NATO is the aggressor today. And it is done on behalf of the EUs economic interests, not even our own. I couldn’t care less where Europe buys their gas.
Yes, and about 40 miles from Kursk, and about 90 miles from Volgograd (Stalingrad). The SS devastated Karkhov a few times too. And had a huge siege at Sevastopol. And fought through Donetsk.
They correctly consider this their turf. And we are pushing to have NATO tanks sitting there. And this lunacy shows no signs of slowing down. The EU today is the USSR of yesterday. they are the expansionist empire. We have been made into their enforcement arm. NATO is no longer defensive.
This all started because part of Ukraine wanted to become part of the EU. Let the EU come to their defense then.
Your side has though, that is what we are discussing right now, Russia killing it's way right up to NATO's borders.
There is no point arguing with an idiot my FRiend.
Anyone that thinks Ukraine is worth fighting Russia for needs to suit up and go fight there...maybe McCain can be convinced to lead a motley crew of rabid warriors in an attempt to wrest Crimea from Russia. I will watch in horror and eat popcorn.
You think the Poles feel that asking to join NATO was the same as being conquered and murdered by your Russian empire?
You think that Reagan called both NATO and your side, the “evil empire”?
No one is the Soviet Union today, and you really need to get your head off that radical leftist equivalency nonsense.
Anyone who keeps claiming that the discussion is about invading Russia, or even sending NATO troops in Ukraine is a liar and an idiot.
As far as having to be willing to enlist for a second or third, or fourth time every time we disagree with you surrender monkeys, get me a waiver and I will go for my third turn as a NATO member soldier.
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