Posted on 12/16/2015 3:21:41 AM PST by markomalley
The field in Tuesday night’s Republican presidential debate was sharply divided between those in favor of and those opposed to the ousting of dictators in the Middle East, with a particular focus on Syria’s Bashar al-Assad.
Businessman Donald Trump and Texas Sen. Ted Cruz both spoke against toppling Assad – Trump on the basis that the Syrian rebels are an unknown quantity and the U.S. should prioritize defeating the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS); and Cruz on the grounds Assad’s overthrow would lead to an ISIS takeover.
Cruz pointed to the rise of jihadists in Libya and Iraq, and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, after the downfall of those counties’ dictators.
“We need to learn from history,” he said, adding that President Obama, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton “and far too many Republicans want to topple Assad.”
He said the late Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi “was a bad man” and former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak “had a terrible human rights record” – but both had helped the U.S. “in fighting radical Islamic terrorists.”
“And if we topple Assad, the result will be ISIS will take over Syria, and it will worsen U.S. national security interests.”
(video at link)
Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky also doubted the wisdom of ousting dictators in the region, saying the call for ousting Assad was “a huge mistake” and that “out of regime change you get chaos,” leading to the rise of radical Islam.
“There is often variations of evil on both sides of the war. What we have to decide is whether or not regime change is a good idea,” Paul said. “It’s what the neoconservatives have wanted; it’s what the vast majority of those on the stage want.”
“They still want regime change,” he continued. “They want it in Syria. They wanted it in Iraq. They want it in Libya. It has not worked.”
Neurosurgeon Ben Carson said U.S. leaders should be prioritizing the needs of the American people before trying to solve others’ problems, and reached for an analogy from air travel.
“When you’re on an airplane, they always say, ‘in case of an emergency oxygen masks will drop down. Put yours on first and then administer help to your neighbor,’” he said.
“We need oxygen right now. And we need to start thinking about the needs of the American people before we go and solve everybody else's problems.”
Carson said the region “has been in turmoil for thousands of years.”
“For us to think that we're going to in there and fix that with a couple of little bombs and a few little decorations is relatively foolish.”
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and Ohio Gov. John Kasich both spoke in favor of bringing down despots in the Middle East.
Kasich expressed incredulity that any candidate would not want to see Assad gone, pointing to the potential strategic implications of his survival.
“I don’t understand this thing about Assad. He has to go,” he declared. “Assad is aligned with Iran and Russia. The one thing we want to prevent is we want to prevent Iran being able to extend a Shia crescent all across the Middle East. Assad has got to go.”
Kasich said he did not believe the U.S. should be the world’s “policeman,” but added that the removal of Assad would deal a blow to Iran and Russia.
‘I will not shed a tear’
In response to a question about his support for the overthrow of Gaddafi in 2011, Rubio highlighted the autocratic leader’s involvement in anti-U.S. terrorism, citing the 1988 Lockerbie bombing and the 1986 bombing of a Berlin disco, which killed two American servicemen.
“The revolt against Gaddafi was not started by the United States. It was started by the Libyan people,” Rubio said. “And the reason why I argued we needed to get involved is because he was going to go one way or the other. And my argument then was proven true, and that is, the longer that civil war took, the more militias would be formed and the more unstable the country would be after the fact.”
Rubio conceded that the U.S. would need to work with less-than-ideal governments, pointing to Saudi Arabia and Jordan as examples.
“But anti-American dictators like Assad, who help Hezbollah, who helped get those IEDs into Iraq [to be used against U.S. troops during the war there], if they go, I will not shed a tear.”
Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush in response to a question said he still believed that the removal of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein – which occurred during the presidency of his brother, President George W. Bush – was “a pretty good deal.”
He added that lessons learned from the war was the need to have “a strategy to get out – which means that you create a stable situation.”
Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina sought to move the spotlight onto Hillary Clinton, citing her approach to the civil wars in both Syria and Libya.
“Recall that she called Bashar al-Assad a positive reformer and then she opened an embassy and then later she said, over and over and over again, ‘Bashar al-Assad must go’ – although she wasn’t prepared to do anything about it.
“Recall that Hillary Clinton was all for toppling Gaddafi then didn’t listen to her own people on the ground,” Fiorina said. “And then of course, when she lied about the terrorist attack in Benghazi, she invited more terrorist attacks.”
(Clinton did not in fact herself describe Assad as a reformer. In an interview two weeks after the unrest began in mid-March 2011, she said, “Many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer.”)
Yeah, Putin is helping Assad fight ISIS for crying out loud. I’m glad none of them wanted to topple the wrong man at the wrong time.
Good grief, what a weird question.
How about they topple the South African government and try ot help the economy down there? Sound good? / sarc.
Steps to reduce illegal immigrants:
1) No public benefits for illegals
2) Require an e-Verify confirmation number for all employees and contractors. Failure to do so invokes an automatic 30% corporate tax
3) Allow e-Verify to match SSN and IRS tax data
4) Require states to maintain a SEPARATE, CITIZEN ONLY voter roll for federal elections
5) illegals caught in the US work on producing compressed earth blocks to supply the border wall and are then sent home.
6) After about year of the above, allow a US citizen to report an illegal alien and receive a deportation bonus to be paid as tax relief to the person who reported the illegal
Worrying about what effect the removal of Assad would have on Iran and Russia is the wrong approach. Kasich should worry about what the removal of Assad would do to the security of USA citizens, and the region.
In reality, Kasich believes that the U.S. should be the world's policemen.
The killing of Christians was not mentioned by Kasich, because they are safe under Assad. Christians have been the "collateral" damage ignored by the Obama Administration, and by Kasich. Our mid east policies have resulted in destabilization and chaos in that region of the world.
I would say Failure to do so results in the principals of the business being publicly perp-walked, jailed without bail, and charged with a felony. With lots and lots of press releases and news conferences by the local US Attorney. Conviction on this felony includes mandatory prison time and forfeiture of all property (same as penalties for drug dealers).
The ME requires tyranny, they have no concept of self discipline.
Well said.
You could even extend that statement to include the descendants of former slaves, who have lost their freedom to Democrat handouts.
In hindsight I think we might have been better off putting Saddam Hussein on a leash.
He would have still gotten to play the role of leader but we would provide his security/jailers and all of his orders and speeches would have been filtered through us.
Sorry, immigration should NOT be the onus of BIZ and you make my point: You punish BIZ for GOVT *NOT* doing its job.
Point 1 should be: kill the illegal/uncon. welfare state. That will ‘cure’ 75% of the illegal problem.
Next is a solid reading of the 14th Amendment; the Socialists have, for too long, been allowed to mis-read and over-look the plain English (in as much as the 2nd).
Then, setup a bounty for the rest.
Lastly, any govt entity/agency/employee failing to do their job is removed, all benefits rescinded and JAILED. THAT’s where the fear needs to be placed.
How about they topple the South African government and try to help the economy down there? Sound good? / sarc.
Good point.
And today, many black south African’s say that they had a higher standard of living under apartheid, they had food to eat, money to spend and they were not afraid at night of somebody out to murder them.
The hell with the foreign dictators, start right here in the U.S. and get rid of our own “dictator, odumbo and his ilk. Once that has been accomplished, start with the senate and congress until they too get the message, “Enough is enough”.
You are correct in that immigration is not the problem of business, however, only hiring people authorized to work in the United States is absolutely the problem of business. And that is the point I was trying to make. If a person who is unauthorized to work in the United States is unable to find employment even on a cash basis, that will greatly reduce a draw on people who wished to invade this country.
I am NOT for a minute suggesting that businesses be required to deport people or even to call the police. As stated above, I think a reward system would be appropriate, but it should not be compulsory.
Making sure businesses comply with existing employment law is not overly odious, unless you think a business should be allowed to import and employ anybody who they can sneak across the border.
My opinion is never take an option off the table and completely rule it out.
Yeah. It would make more sense to topple South Africa than Assad. But of course, neither would be a good idea. The South African people need to learn about socialism and a high minimal wage the hard way.
Trump is going to DESTROY Hillary over her horrific “We came, we saw, he DIED” cackle over Gadaffi’s murder and the subsequent takeover of the half of Libya by ISIS, and the sparking of the refugee flood from Libya.
You are so right. I’m buying several books on Islam, Mohammed and Arab history and Arab thought. I’ve learned quite bit that I didn’t realize. And those folks are nothing like the West.
Interesting observation is that the influence Islam has on a conquered country depends on what the country was like before Islam.
I have 3 docs from Pakistan, the least amount of time with any of them is 10 years. I wouldn’t want any other doctors, they are very competent, thorough and extremely kind and caring.
I realized why so many Pakistanis are like that, Pakistan actually came out of the British system when the Muslims where part of British ruled India. They have been greatly influenced by the British educational system.
We often talk about the ME conflicts. But the one thing they all have in common, they hate the Jews, I mean seriously hate them.
Really? I just cannot see ISIS ever having been more than a few guys meeting in a barn somewhere if Hussein was still in power. Say what you will about what a murderous, psychotic SOB he was (and, indeed, he was ALL of those things), but he didn't put up with the religious nuts of Islam. When he was put in his cage, he generally stayed there because he was somewhat rational. He'd have also kept Iran somewhat in line.
It is all fine and well to topple some horrible dictator - but he is going to be replaced by someone else, and unless you know who that is, and also that they can be dealt with just as easily, then you are creating a far worse problem than you are solving. Oh, and as a bonus, you are getting the people in that part of the world to hate the U.S. even more.
Ummm... No.
The punishment for BIZ is in the case where they fail to ensure that their employees are legally allowed to work.
Now, with border jumpers, it could be construed as government failure. However, the same system is designed to ensure that student visa holders, tourist visa holders, etc. are also excluded from the work force. These people have a legal (albeit temporary) permission slip to be in the country, but are not allowed to work.
If the business follows the steps to assure employees are legal, then they should be held blameless for government failure to identify illegal workers (such as when the e-verify system fails).
But if the business fails to follow the steps, the business should be liable. And the liability must be personal to those who most benefit from the illegality.
‘Authorized to work’, ‘legally allowed’...boy, how far we have fallen from a once Free Nation.
Therein lies the rub, is it not? GOVT, not doing its job, pushes the requirement to the ‘next level’, aka ‘biz’. Biz is there to sell/produce XYZ and make a profit doing so, nothing more.
If the issue is tracking visas/non-national work permits, that (again) is a function of govt...to institute a better system (as if there weren’t plenty in existence I’d bet).
Instead, we’ve allowed govt to usurp our Freedoms and Liberty and trample our Rights. No, thanks. Get ‘em to do their job, or vote in those that WILL do it.
Course, if govt were still within the bounds of the Const., this discussion would most likely be moot: no welfare, no regs/rogue agencies = lower TRUE unemployment, etc.
No offense but, IMO, it’s just sad to see/read/hear those (C) whose 1st, knee-jerk reactions is taking the debate at face value instead of drilling down to the ROOT cause...and 99%, it’s called GOVT (specifically, NOT doing what its instituted).
Still, I appreciate where you’re coming from, but, to me, it’s NOT the (L), or (C), nor Constitutional route.
We’ve seen just how well govt is vetting on visas already; should biz now be given NSA, FB, Twit, etc. access to ensure they aren’t hiring some bat-sh!t crazy w/ a finger on a trigger?
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