USMC: Muslim-American recruit was called ‘terrorist’ prior to his death

Beaufort Gazette ^ | 12 Sept. 2016 | WADE LIVINGSTON

[davandbar]

That’s very true—my son had to refer to himself as “this recruit” every time he spoke to a drill instructor during boot camp.

I believe that once he completed “The Crucible” at Camp Pendleton, he was able to refer to himself as “this marine,” or perhaps even in first person (I don’t remember exactly—it was over ten years ago)!

[BAN-ONE]

HiTech RedNeck -> “By whose law?”

What law do you recognize?

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

i.e. , a practicing muzz cannot in good faith take this oath since his first oath is not to the Constitution, but to his demon god. This is a religion that demands HiTech RedNecks either be killed or subjugated. But don’t take my word for it. You will see for yourself.

[DoughtyOne]

...the instructor made an unforced error...

The recruit ran to a door, opened it, and threw himself over a railing.

Yes he did.  And it seems to be your take that he did this on the spur of the moment with no more promting that what we know about here.  Thus you seem to think the insturctor had no bearing on the outcome.  I disagree.

Something drove this recruit to do what he did.  I don't think a person is likely to do that sort of things without a number of contributing factors built up over time.

It's my take that the instructor had made it perfectly clear he wanted this recruit gone or at the very least hazed to the extreme.  I submit that the instructor had men within the class that were sympathetic to his goals, and harrassed this individual to the breaking point.  The individual finally came to the point he couldn't take it anymore, and either killed himself on purpose or was seeking to flee the scene.  Either one of those eventualities is problematic to me.

Let me ask you this.  If the recruit had stayed in the corp and survived this hell (for him), do you think that would have spurred more loyalty to the corp and the United States, or would it have spurred him to be open to being used by the other side to get even with the corp or the United States?  This guy could have stayed in, been trained to do all manner of things that could be used against localities, or different levels of government or even the public.  Do you think this action on the recruiters part would be more likely to help the situation or make it worse?

I think it would have undoubtedly created a situation where this recruit may have been more receptive to subterfuge than he otherwise might have been.  You can dismiss that if you like, but it would seem illogical to the extreme to think this sort of treatment would have endeared him to the corp or the U. S.

We know this drill instructor had another Islamic recruit placed in a clothes drier. It was turned on, and the recruit received burns.  This is a drill insturctor who doesn't know his limits.

I find it illogical to think this drill instructor acted alone to get the Islamic recruit into the drier.  It would seem logical to me for him to have recruited some like minds amonst the class to help him.

These same recruits would have given this guy hell in the unit, and in the barracks.  They may have intimidated the recruits.   Who knows how much this contributed to the present recruit's mindset here.  I don't see this recruit doing this sort of thing short of extreme desperation.

This Islamic recruit was deemed fit enough to enter the corp.  He was acceptable healthwise.  Then within the training, he turned to flight or outright suicide.  Something more than a simple refusal to go the the infirmary was involved here.

I think this drill instructor contributed to this man's death.  There's a likelihood he recruited others, and they also contributed to it.

When women entered the services, some of the training was modified.  Some of the long runs and packs carried were reduced.  Some of the hazing was reduced.  Over time it was deemed too harsh to give recruits a hard time.  This is my take from what I've read.  I have disagreed with this philosophy.  I think we need hardened troops, and hazing to the point of someone wanting to leave of their own volition, is not something I'm against if it is done right.  You do have to give a guy an out.  If you don't, this sort of thing is more likely to happen.  Here it did.

These are the thoughts that occur to me here.  Hey, I could be wrong.  I'm trying to make sense of this.  Perhaps your sense is better.

Take care.

.

[Ray76]

He wasn’t ordered into a dangerous location or action. The kid cracked and committed suicide.

As far as the drier that is improper.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your response Ray76.

The kid was telling him he had throat pain, and the instructor deemed it proper to have him run, thus compromising his airway more.

No sale.

[Ray76]

I have a sore throat can I be excused from drill?

[DoughtyOne]

It depends.

[Ray76]

Depends on what? The expectation that a person will throw themselves off a third floor stairway?

It’s unfortunate what happened. It’s unreasonable to expect people to foresee this act.

[DoughtyOne]

Ray76, I addressed the issues germane to this situation.

You have chosen to ignore all of it and stick with the same line of reasoning.

That’s okay. Rehashing this isn’t going to change either of our positions.

You take care.

[Ray76]

You have chosen to judge from a position of hindsight. That is unfair to the accused.

Unlike the drier incident where the possibility of burns are reasonably foreseeable, no one could possibly foresee someone throwing themselves from the third floor.

You ignore this fact and stick with the irrational belief that the DI should have expected this outcome and therefor is culpable for the death.

[DoughtyOne]

I gave you an extensive situational description that was fairly reasoned. This DI either knew the kid was close to the breaking point, or he was unfit as a DI.

It’s his business to be inside the heads of his recruits, evaluate them, and know if they are near the breaking point.

You’re not going to get away with covering for his ass with me.

You can either give that up, or continue to make absurd claims about him not having any idea this kid was near the breaking point.

Not buying it.

[Ray76]

Yes of course, all reasonable persons would foresee him throwing himself from the third floor.

That’s your absurd claim.

[DoughtyOne]

You’re not winning Ray76.

You’re refusing to admit to yourself what this DI was up to.

He had a personal dislike for Islamic recruits. He had a pattern of driving them very hard.

You’re refusing to admit to yourself what that would result in.

You can sit there and play like you can’t grasp this, or you can admit this DI went too far.

You’re not scoring points with me here and so far I have explained my position much better than you have.

[Ray76]

You’re not scoring any points with me, either.

[Ray76]

> I have explained my position much better than you have.

You have a pretty high opinion of yourself.

[Let's Roll]

Yep, if it ain’t broke, the govt will fix it until it is.

[DoughtyOne]

No problem at all here Ray76.

I’ve laid out my case and you’ve made a smattering of remarks that all display a complete rejection of reality.

You think that bothers me?

[Ray76]

You can stick with your absurd claim that the DI should have foreseen the recruit jumping from the third floor, it’s an outcome any reasonable person would expect, therefor the DI is culpable for the death. You can stick with your assumption of godlike powers.

This is why your case is unconvincing.

[DoughtyOne]

You know Ray76, you’re not doing yourself any favors.

Your premise has been that this guy just up and killed himself because the DI wouldn’t let him go to the infirmary. How could the DI have known?

A child of ten would know better than that. Something else was driving the kid. There had to be.

If you wish to hide your head in the sand and go, “La la la la la...” so you can’t hear any other logic, go ahead.

As I have said, it’s not making you look good.

This kid was driven to the breaking point by the DI and his group of go-alongs.

Wake up.

[Ray76]

You’re not doing yourself any favors with your personal comments.

If he felt he was being driven to the breaking point he could have filed a complaint, went to the company commander, or thrown himself from the third floor. One of these is absolutely unforeseeable, yet that is the route the kid chose and you want to hold the DI culpable for it.