Posted on 01/11/2019 10:43:14 AM PST by DoodleDawg
What an economic retard you are. What would the salaries be for "Systems" Ph.D. in Computer Science if all the foreigner were sent packing? Hmmm. Double probably.
Like I told you many times before the world's "Captains of Industry" want to manipulate the price of labor in the USA by flooding the USA with cheap labor. See, guys like you really don't believe in free markets and are hypocrites of the worst kind. Simply stated they ( globalist capitalists ) want to set price for labor through market manipulation via political means, i.e pay off politicians to open the borders. I guess the technical term is global labor arbitrage.
Communists like to set wages too. You Free Traitors™ and global capitalists are really just Trotskyites with thick wallets. Oh yeah and please F off.
Maybe we should just have a separate visa for the high-level graduates and disallow these low-skilled workers period.
If you are a natural US citizen, and your GREs are anywhere close to good, you will waltz into any good Ph.D. program in CS, because there are very few USC applicants who are willing to do the (incredibly intense, shitty, thankless) work required to attain that level of education. This isn't your typical IT administrator stuff...think more along the lines of the nexus of advanced mathematics, systems design, and operations research.
The nationality of admitted students at this level has very little to do with any profit motive either, as almost everything admitted to these types of Ph.D. programs are fully funded (by assistantships that require a ton of hard work, almost slave labor, but still funded). An international student will actually *cost* the university more than a USC, on average.
I am very close to people who sit on the admissions committee at my university...they certainly don't pass over USCs for their health.
Competent USC PhDs are snapped up lightning fast in this field. I believe this is one of the few levels of industry where there truly is a shortage of qualified USC applicants for the needs of industry.
As for why people cannot use other visa types, it is more complicated than it sounds. It is very very difficult practically and logistically (because of how academic publishing works in our field) to publish enough during a typical Ph.D. study interval to meet the required proof level for an (alien of extraordinary ability) green card. Many of these people will eventually meet this requirement handily, but without H1B or some other visa to hold them over, they will likely have to leave the USA before they can complete enough publications to prove their excellence.
BTW, the Indian low-level coders are not making nearly those salaries, and neither should they, as very few of them provide that much value.
You got it. Have a kid go into significant debt, only to find employment opportunities being given only to foreign nationals.
Enough.
Did I see Orrin Hatch’s name on of Trump’s H1B tweets? If so, we’re going to get shafted by cheap foreign labor.
That's a good idea. Send email, sign a petition, or something...
Now that is infuriating.
The politicians keep talking about student debt and what to do about it. Meanwhile, the same politicians are stealing job opportunities from those students.
The problem with H-1B abuse has little to do with PHd’s. That is a side issue.
Many US citizens stop at an undergrad CS degree for financial reasons, not because they're unwilling to do the hard work for an advanced degree.
Many of them have student debt to pay off for their BS degrees. The last thing they need is more debt. They might want to go to grad school and work toward an advanced degree. But, realistically, are there enough job opportunities, with higher salaries, open to advanced degree holders? I read that most employers aren't looking for people with graduate-level CS degrees because they don't want to pay the higher salary.
Sometimes an employer will supplement the cost of a graduate degree. Otherwise, most American CS majors who stop at the BS degree are being practical, not lazy.
If I know of a kid looking at Engineering School, I tell them to find another career path for college. There’s no reason for a bright kid to into Engineering these days.
My package was at the higher end of normal, with $25-27k per year stipend, tuition waiver, and state employees health/dental, but similar arrangements are ubiquitous at good universities.
Sure, lots of students just want to go to work after the BS, and that is completely respectable, but the cost (other than lost wages) is not typically a reason to not pursue a CS Ph.D. in the US.
I can agree with that.
It's great that it all worked out for you. An advanced degree is impressive. But this issue is all about jobs (and money), and that stipend would be a sacrifice for most people.
A CS student with a BS degree can earn at least twice that amount right out of college. Sacrificing income, for years, in order to earn an advanced degree might not be practical for most people.
Those Americans aren't being lazy, but practical. The experience they gain in the workforce can be valuable. If needed, they could work toward an advanced degree later, especially if their employer covers their tuition.
Most CS jobs don't even require more than a BS degree. And some employers are fine with tech school. I know people without any kind of degree making six figures working in the CS field. They worked their way up, with certifications here and there.
Most H1B IT workers don't have PhDs, or even MS degrees, either, and some have the equivalent of an associate degree.
Competent USC PhDs are snapped up lightning fast in this field. I believe this is one of the few levels of industry where there truly is a shortage of qualified USC applicants for the needs of industry.
Not in industry...perhaps in academia—at least not for CHemical Engineering PhDs...No waltzing in...competition is tough these days...I know because my son did not “waltz” into a good PhD program with well-funded assistantship**—and yet he graduated w/BS from a top school and had perfect GRE score...He did not have a particularly easy time finding good entry level PhD position in industry during the Obama years either. I know his pay, and I believe it would be higher if there were fewer foreigners working for less.
I see from your post, it seems very likely you are in academia...So sort of makes sense that you would be supporting interests of foreign grad students. As I noted in another post, at UofIllinois, (one of the top engineering schools) Chinese students are RECRUITED by recruiters who go to CHINA to recruit—UofIllinois is known as Univ of Illinois-China at Champaign-Urbana as they have the highest Chinese Student enrollment are recently insured themseves for $400,000 loss due to potential trade war issues...****The Chinese students pay full ride undergrad —at state schools— state schools which find the full-ride out-of-state tuition that Chinese pay to be far more lucrative than the in-state tuition paid by Illinois residents. Though student seats are capped, Student visas are UNLIMITED, so lots of cash coming in.***
From what you say, because foreign students need longer to finish dissertation and publishing, they should be entitled to stay longer through VISA extensions?
With all due respect, IMHO, foreign students should not apply for PhD programs if they cannot secure a student VISA that grants enough time for research, publishing, etc...Why don’t they get a PhD in India or China? Well, as I worked in a graduate students office in college of engineering at a major university, I know the answer—India and China don’t have nearly the number of PhD level programs that the US does...Perhaps Maybe they need to bit the bullet and pay more to establish additional programs...
My son w/PhD in Chem E had a 4-year undergrad scholarship—if he did not graduate in 4 years, he would have to pay full out-of-state-tuition for any additional ...He sucked it up and graduated in 4 years because that is what he needed to do...
I think foreign students should have to do the same...Many US Citizen grad students run out of funding and cannot finish—it is sad but reality, and no concessions are made for them. Again, why does everyone care about the foreign grad students interests and less so for the US Citizen students?
Your profile says you are from New Jersey. My computer engineering son works in San Jose for a large company, so I will take his information that foreign workers have bent the pay curve over the past decade+ over your post. He is in industry in the “hot” area and he is the only Caucasian US citizen in his group.
We disagree, but then I have kids who are competing with foreign workers—universities (of which I am pretty sure you are a part) you have students who are foreign that you want to place, so obviously we would disagree on this.
Fregards
***Another Freeper, a Univ. of Illinois Engr grad said the Chinese students were well known for their cheating (which makes sense as getting ahead by whatever means necessary seems to be a bedrock value of Chinese communist society)...that does not help the more honest US citizens
Technically yes I am in academia, but maybe not in the way you assume...I am finishing my Ph.D. soon and hopefully getting pretty far away from academia as soon as I can. I've been working in industry along the way whenever I've had the chance. Its been a long haul, and I've gained a wife and three little ones along the way :)
The Chinese students pay full ride undergrad...
We are in full agreement on Chinese students...the universities go after them because they pay more, and they are notorious for cheating and acting like a mafia to do it (distributing answers, helping each other, etc.).
From what you say, because foreign students need longer to finish dissertation and publishing, they should be entitled to stay longer through VISA extensions?
I think maybe you misunderstood me. Student visas (F1) grant status for the duration of your program, so as long as you are enrolled full time in an accredited program, you may remain on F1...of course you can't work outside the university etc. So, as long as a Ph.D. student manages to secure funding, they can stay.
My other comment was in the context of H1B...another poster asked why highly qualified people with Ph.Ds cannot use another immigration vector if they are so qualified. I said that such a thing exists in the form of "alien with extraordinary ability" status, but that practically it requires a ton of publications and a level of academic standing that is very hard to attain JUST during your Ph.D. study tenure...this is where H1B comes in for these people.
He sucked it up and graduated in 4 years because that is what he needed to do...I think foreign students should have to do the same...
Fully agree. I also had a limited term scholarship for undergrad and busted my ass to complete my BS on time...see my previous point, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about time to attain certain academic standing.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, and best wishes.
FYI
FINALLY SOME TRUTH ABOUT THE ISSUE!
H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of U.S. colleges over American grads, feds allege
https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3723042/posts
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