Skip to comments.The Myth of Mecca
Posted on 09/27/2001 6:56:26 AM PDT by francisandbeans
The most sacred spot on earth to all members of the Islamic religion is the Holy City of Mecca, revered as the birthplace of Mohammed. It is one of the five basic requirements incumbent upon all Moslems that they make (if their health will allow it) a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lives (the other four: recognize that there is no god but Allah, that Mohammed is Allah's prophet, ritually pray five times a day, and give alms to the poor).
The founding events of Islam are Mohammed's activities in Mecca and Medina, a city north of Mecca. The life of Mohammed, known as the Sira, is popularly accepted to be fully documented historically, that everything he did and said was accurately recorded. According to one hagiographer, although Mohammed "could not read or write himself, he was constantly served by a group of 45 scribes who wrote down his sayings, instructions and activities.... We thus know his life down to the minutest details."
The evidence for this is "the earliest and most famous biography of Mohammed," the Sirat Rasul Allah (The Life of the Prophet of God) of Ibn Ishaq. The dates given for Mohammed's life are 570-632 AD. Ibn Ishaq was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Mohammed lived, precluding his gaining any information from eyewitnesses to the Sira as they would have all died themselves in the intervening years.
However, no copies exist of Ibn Ishaq's work. We know of it only through quotations of it in the History of al-Tabari, who lived over two hundred years after Ibn Ishaq (al-Tabari died in 992). Thus the earliest biography of Mohammed of which copies still exist was written some 350 years after Mohammed lived.
It is curious, therefore, that there seems to have been so little serious scholarly research of the historical evidence for how Islam came to be. Yet what seems to be isn't so. A number of professional academic historians, both Western and Moslem, have produced a large body of research on the origins of Islam. For reasons best known to the pundits and reviewers who should be aware of it, this research remains publicly unknown.
rest of article here
This reminds me of the way Hitler tried to use Nostradamus during WWII. He said the conquests by Germany were already in prophecy.
This makes these guys (Osama and all associates) even more crazed that I thought (which would be pretty hard to do).
. . . "This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some two hundred years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around." . . .
Fiction and Fact from gatorman's Almanac:
1) Islam in Arabic means to "submit". After Mohammed's death began the conquest of what was left of the old Byzantine Christian Empire. The vanquished had to submit to Islam or were put to the sword. Mosques were built upon the destroyed ruins of Christian churches and places of worship to eradicate that culture.
2) Muslims believe that Mohammed was the prophet of God (Allah) as Christ was the prophet of God to the Christians and Abraham the prophet of God to the Jews. However, at the time of Mohammed . . . Islam was a heresy of both religions (what)? ? ?
There suddenly was an American terrorist group by, let's say, the name of "The Minutemen". And, these Minutemen terrorists threatened any Islamic country by blowing up Mecca or the Temple Mount if any more acts of war were waged on Americans anywhere in the world? Would that get anyone's attention? Just daydreaming, again.
Muslims believe Mohammed, Christ, and Abraham (as well as Moses, Noah, and many others) were all prophets of God.
Ibn Warraq's site at the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society is worth visiting and has a lot of very informative links. Here's a quote from the flyleaf of one of his books:"
"Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels in the Oreint that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that on can render him."
The Koran takes great care to stress this common monotheisticheritage, but it works equally hard to distinguish Islam from Judaism and Christianity. For example, it mentions prophets -- Hud, Salih, Shu'ayb, Luqman, and others -- whose origins seem exclusively Arabian, and it reminds readers that it is "A Koran in Arabic, / For people who understand." Despite its repeated assertions to the contrary, however, the Koran is often extremely difficult for contemporary readers -- even highly educated speakers of Arabic -- to understand.
Some interesting reading here if you are so inclined . . .
FReegards . . .
Something to think about ain't it?
The same could be said of the founding of Christianity; what research has been done is resoundingly denounced by those with a vested interest in the status quo ...
A lie within more lies is still a lie even if it's taught as truth .
From my experience in the Middle East, I suspect that much of the conflict stems from the fact that Muslims are taught that everything Muslim is superior to everything infidel.
It is almost impossible for an infidel to teach a true believer, because they do not believe that a an infidel could possibly know anything that a true believer does not already know.
Every superior achievement of the West is a blatant affront to their religion and thus must be the work of the devil. The World Trade Towers were a standing insult to their god and thus they had to be destroyed.
I was in Turkey when we first set foot on the Moon. Muslims were either in shock or in denial. It was not a happy time in the nation of Islam.
How can Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet and at the same time claim he's a liar?
1) Why is the color green on their countries flags?
2) Why is the crescent moon and star on their flags?
3) Why is the meteorite in the middle of the city so important?
Always wondered about these things.
Thanks for the insight.
OK, shoot. Give me one specific criticism of the the Bible and the Catholic church or one contradiction in either. That shouldn't be too hard.
An absolutley fascinating article and unfortunately, Dr. Crone's book is out of print and the local library doesn't carry it.
Know your enemy...
The New Testement was complete by 100 AD, less than 70 years after Jesus' death. There are more manuscripts of the NT than any other Greek work. We don't doubt the writings of Julias Caesar--why Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
If the disciples lied and Jesus didn't rise, there's no reasonable explanation of why they were willing to be martyred for a lie. Do you have one?
There suddenly was an American terrorist group by, let's say, the name of "The Minutemen". And, these Minutemen terrorists threatened any Islamic country by blowing up Mecca or the Temple Mount if any more acts of war were waged on Americans anywhere in the world? Would that get anyone's attention?
That's the road I think we should take, except that we need not create a terrorist group ourselves. We should just point a nuclear missile at Mecca, announce to the Arab world that Islamic terrorists of all stripes are now their problem and their problem alone to deal with if they wish for Mecca not to become a smoldering crater of glass. We will provide them with every aid and incentive that they might desire to save their most holy city and root out the terrorists once and for all, but if the terrorism begins anew, they have no one but themselves to blame for what happens to Mecca if they allow their madmen to get out of control one more time.
We've been reasonable through the bombings of embassies, the bombing of the USS Cole, the numerous suicide bombings of Palestinian nutcases in Israel, but it is clear that being "reasonable" hasn't gotten us anywhere. It's now time to become unreasonable.
Thanks for the post, and bump it.
None of the links work anymore, but the whole article is posted at #20.
If anybody has a new link please post on that thread. Also if anyone knows where to find more from Dr. Wheeler, I would love a ping.
NOTE: You will not find a lot of literature on the Koran because the Koran is the Word of God made text, and questioning its sanctity or authority is thus considered an outright attack on Islam -- as Salman Rushdie knows all too well.
FReegards . . .
So does the Bible.
Sure, but they come somewhat short of acknowledging Christ as the offspring of God.
They would easily accept Noah, as he was the father of Seth, from which many Muslims (and of course the Jews) derive.
I'm sad to say it, but I suspect that certain fringe elements of the Christian right lust for a holy war as much as the Taliban.
Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina is a myth, a "baseless fiction." This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working on Islamic Studies today. They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear. Yet they and their research are virtually unknown.
Islam a myth - now that says it all.
If that were in fact the case, moslems would be perfectly willing to invite Christian missionaries in, and would permit them to distribute bibles freely. The fact that they do not implies that they realize that if the masses ever become enlightened, they will conclude that islam is a myth and a fraud, as the article showed.
The answer to your question seems to be predicated upon the religious perspective of the questioner.
......``But any Muslim who dies on the side of Afghanistan will die as a martyr and go to paradise.''.
''the first martyrs in the battle of Islam of this age.''...
"the Muslims of Chechnya is a religious duty and anyone who killed a Russian would become a martyr and enter heaven."
"He said he was praying to Allah that they would be accepted as martyrs, and ``their children are my children and I will be their caretaker.''
True. They regard Jesus as a prophet, but they reject any claim of divinity. They consider all the prophets - including Mohammed - to be mortal. I believe the Koran does address Jesus as "the blessed one" and I think that has something to do with the virgin birth.
They do believe that in the Ascension, but they believe Jesus ascended to heaven as a mortal, where he lives to this day. They believe Jesus will return to earth during the end times to complete the remainder of his destiny on earth (and ultimately die as a mortal). BTW, they have their own version of Armageddon, where everyone dies. No rapture. They also believe in a Judgment Day.
They also reject the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" - they regard it as a form of polytheism. I've got to confess, I have a hard time swallowing that one. Even at the age of 7 or 8, it sounded pretty fishy to me.
Man, we've covered all these in dozens of threads on this forum, and I know you've been part of these discussions, or someone using your screen name has been.
You see, the punishment for being an ex-Muslim is spelled out in the Koran -- death.
The questionable historicity of Jesus.
There is more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for the existence of Aristotle.
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