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The Myth of Mecca
PUSA.com ^ | 9/27 | Dr. Jack Wheeler

Posted on 09/27/2001 6:56:26 AM PDT by francisandbeans

The most sacred spot on earth to all members of the Islamic religion is the Holy City of Mecca, revered as the birthplace of Mohammed. It is one of the five basic requirements incumbent upon all Moslems that they make (if their health will allow it) a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lives (the other four: recognize that there is no god but Allah, that Mohammed is Allah's prophet, ritually pray five times a day, and give alms to the poor).

The founding events of Islam are Mohammed's activities in Mecca and Medina, a city north of Mecca. The life of Mohammed, known as the Sira, is popularly accepted to be fully documented historically, that everything he did and said was accurately recorded. According to one hagiographer, although Mohammed "could not read or write himself, he was constantly served by a group of 45 scribes who wrote down his sayings, instructions and activities.... We thus know his life down to the minutest details."

The evidence for this is "the earliest and most famous biography of Mohammed," the Sirat Rasul Allah (The Life of the Prophet of God) of Ibn Ishaq. The dates given for Mohammed's life are 570-632 AD. Ibn Ishaq was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Mohammed lived, precluding his gaining any information from eyewitnesses to the Sira as they would have all died themselves in the intervening years.

However, no copies exist of Ibn Ishaq's work. We know of it only through quotations of it in the History of al-Tabari, who lived over two hundred years after Ibn Ishaq (al-Tabari died in 992). Thus the earliest biography of Mohammed of which copies still exist was written some 350 years after Mohammed lived.

It is curious, therefore, that there seems to have been so little serious scholarly research of the historical evidence for how Islam came to be. Yet what seems to be isn't so. A number of professional academic historians, both Western and Moslem, have produced a large body of research on the origins of Islam. For reasons best known to the pundits and reviewers who should be aware of it, this research remains publicly unknown.

rest of article here


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: history; islam; jackwheeler; mecca; themythofmecca
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1 posted on 09/27/2001 6:56:26 AM PDT by francisandbeans
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To: francisandbeans
Summary: We don't know so we will speculate and present the speculation as fact.

Weird.

2 posted on 09/27/2001 7:00:40 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: francisandbeans
bump
3 posted on 09/27/2001 7:10:19 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Thinkers of the world
Is Islam is at a crossroads? The events of 9-11 and the reaction of much of the Muslim world gives rise to several observations/quetions:
1. What kind of god, Allah(?) proclaims the mass murder of defenseless people a "righteous" act? What authority in the Koran are these acts based on?
2. Why does the "paradise" that martyrs are promised appear to appeal to the most BASE of male EARTHLY desires (you know the 70 virgins or little boys)?
3. If Islam is a religion of peace why were so many celebrating this mass slaughter in the Middle East?
4. Why does this aggressive intolerant version of Islam appear to be dominant in the Islamic schools we’ve been hearing about? And…
5. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t at one time Islam teach respect and tolerance for other “people of the Book” (Christians and Jews) who are descended from the covenant of Abraham?
And lastly,
6. Why does Islam seem to promote and encourage any two-bit self-proclaimed "holy man" to sentence half the world's population to death! With the blessings of ALLAH?
Help me here????
4 posted on 09/27/2001 7:40:36 AM PDT by FiddlePig
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To: FiddlePig
Profound!

This reminds me of the way Hitler tried to use Nostradamus during WWII. He said the conquests by Germany were already in prophecy.

This makes these guys (Osama and all associates) even more crazed that I thought (which would be pretty hard to do).

5 posted on 09/27/2001 8:01:04 AM PDT by CT
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To: francisandbeans

. . . "This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some two hundred years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around." . . .

Fiction and Fact from gatorman's Almanac:

1) Islam in Arabic means to "submit". After Mohammed's death began the conquest of what was left of the old Byzantine Christian Empire. The vanquished had to submit to Islam or were put to the sword. Mosques were built upon the destroyed ruins of Christian churches and places of worship to eradicate that culture.

2) Muslims believe that Mohammed was the prophet of God (Allah) as Christ was the prophet of God to the Christians and Abraham the prophet of God to the Jews. However, at the time of Mohammed . . . Islam was a heresy of both religions (what)? ? ?

What If:

There suddenly was an American terrorist group by, let's say, the name of "The Minutemen". And, these Minutemen terrorists threatened any Islamic country by blowing up Mecca or the Temple Mount if any more acts of war were waged on Americans anywhere in the world? Would that get anyone's attention? Just daydreaming, again.


6 posted on 09/27/2001 9:35:34 AM PDT by gatorman
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To: gatorman
Muslims believe that Mohammed was the prophet of God (Allah) as Christ was the prophet of God to the Christians and Abraham the prophet of God to the Jews.

Muslims believe Mohammed, Christ, and Abraham (as well as Moses, Noah, and many others) were all prophets of God.

7 posted on 09/27/2001 9:41:57 AM PDT by Who is George Salt?
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To: francisandbeans
Yes. A search of all the national bookstore chains probably won't yield you one volume of objective criticism of the Qur'an or early Islamic history. After years of working in the Middle East, I would come home on vacation looking for some serious scholarship as a antidote to the pap that everyone is fed who lives and works there. You won't find it on the "Islam" shelf in the religion section of any major book dealer even in their outlets in major cities in NY or DC.

Ibn Warraq's site at the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society is worth visiting and has a lot of very informative links. Here's a quote from the flyleaf of one of his books:"

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels in the Oreint that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that on can render him."

-E. Renan

8 posted on 09/27/2001 10:05:43 AM PDT by a merkin
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To: Who is George Salt?
You are correct Who Is George Salt? However, the Koran makes a clear distinction in Mohammed being the prophet of God (Allah) to the Arabic peoples.

The Koran takes great care to stress this common monotheisticheritage, but it works equally hard to distinguish Islam from Judaism and Christianity. For example, it mentions prophets -- Hud, Salih, Shu'ayb, Luqman, and others -- whose origins seem exclusively Arabian, and it reminds readers that it is "A Koran in Arabic, / For people who understand." Despite its repeated assertions to the contrary, however, the Koran is often extremely difficult for contemporary readers -- even highly educated speakers of Arabic -- to understand.

Some interesting reading here if you are so inclined . . .

For People Who Understand

FReegards . . .


9 posted on 09/27/2001 10:22:18 AM PDT by gatorman
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To: CT
Re your #5: It's kinda funny, Hitler was burnt with fire. His belief in Nostradomas' prophecy didn't work out.......Hmmmmmmmm! What does the Bible say about real Prophets.....and false ones?

Something to think about ain't it?

10 posted on 09/27/2001 10:34:04 AM PDT by Truliberty
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To: FiddlePig
Radical Islam is the Anti-Christ...imho.
11 posted on 09/27/2001 10:55:54 AM PDT by Ann Archy
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To: francisandbeans
Very interesting. BUMP.
12 posted on 09/27/2001 10:59:42 AM PDT by traditionalist
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To: francisandbeans
What a fantastic article!!! Thanks for posting it!
13 posted on 09/27/2001 11:05:51 AM PDT by Ann Archy
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To: francisandbeans
It is curious, therefore, that there seems to have been so little serious scholarly research of the historical evidence for how Islam came to be.

The same could be said of the founding of Christianity; what research has been done is resoundingly denounced by those with a vested interest in the status quo ...

14 posted on 09/27/2001 11:07:09 AM PDT by Junior
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: francisandbeans
Religion is based on myth. If you chip away enough myth, religion dies. This is a serious mission creep. Now he wants to undermine all strands of Islam. The Old and New Testament are also vulnerable to the same kind of criticism
16 posted on 09/27/2001 11:18:01 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: francisandbeans
Religion is based on myth. If you chip away enough myth, religion dies. This is a serious mission creep. Now he wants to undermine all strands of Islam. The Old and New Testament are also vulnerable to the same kind of criticism
17 posted on 09/27/2001 11:18:13 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: FiddlePig
and you forgot 7) How come there are so many Muslim football players willing to do anything to get their hands on a pigskin while at home they won't let their children watch Porky the Pig cartoons?
18 posted on 09/27/2001 11:24:26 AM PDT by Woodkirk
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To: francisandbeans
The Koran teaches that the sun revolves around the earth .

A lie within more lies is still a lie even if it's taught as truth .

Cheese .

19 posted on 09/27/2001 11:26:15 AM PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: Woodkirk
They (NFL) quit using real pigskin some time ago
21 posted on 09/27/2001 11:31:59 AM PDT by francisandbeans
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To: FiddlePig
Excellant questions.

From my experience in the Middle East, I suspect that much of the conflict stems from the fact that Muslims are taught that everything Muslim is superior to everything infidel.

It is almost impossible for an infidel to teach a true believer, because they do not believe that a an infidel could possibly know anything that a true believer does not already know.

Every superior achievement of the West is a blatant affront to their religion and thus must be the work of the devil. The World Trade Towers were a standing insult to their god and thus they had to be destroyed.

I was in Turkey when we first set foot on the Moon. Muslims were either in shock or in denial. It was not a happy time in the nation of Islam.

22 posted on 09/27/2001 11:32:25 AM PDT by bayourod
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To: Who is George Salt?
Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through the Son". Muslims say not so.

How can Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet and at the same time claim he's a liar?

23 posted on 09/27/2001 11:40:26 AM PDT by DManA
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To: gatorman
Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around." . . .

Worth repeating.

24 posted on 09/27/2001 11:44:52 AM PDT by Steve1789
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To: DManA
Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet

1) Why is the color green on their countries flags?

2) Why is the crescent moon and star on their flags?

3) Why is the meteorite in the middle of the city so important?

Always wondered about these things.

25 posted on 09/27/2001 11:48:48 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: bayourod
I was in Turkey when we first set foot on the Moon. Muslims were either in shock or in denial. It was not a happy time in the nation of Islam.

Thanks for the insight.

26 posted on 09/27/2001 11:51:57 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Junior
The same could be said of the founding of Christianity; what research has been done is resoundingly denounced by those with a vested interest in the status quo ...

OK, shoot. Give me one specific criticism of the the Bible and the Catholic church or one contradiction in either. That shouldn't be too hard.

27 posted on 09/27/2001 11:58:06 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: francisandbeans
In her book, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Dr. Crone demonstrates that Islam did not originate in Mecca.

An absolutley fascinating article and unfortunately, Dr. Crone's book is out of print and the local library doesn't carry it.

28 posted on 09/27/2001 12:01:13 PM PDT by Solon
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To: RightWhale
I've always wondered about the night ride through tht esky and the black oblisk(sp?)in Mecca. Seemsweird and alien to me.

Know your enemy...

29 posted on 09/27/2001 12:07:31 PM PDT by Rev DMV
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To: Who is George Salt?
Muslims believe that Mohammed was the final and supreme prophet of God. Every day, 5 times a day, they pray "There is no Allah but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet". No mention of 'one of his prophets' or 'the head prophet'. Anything that was said before Mohammed received revaltion from Gabriel does not exist in Islam.
30 posted on 09/27/2001 12:09:00 PM PDT by constitutiongirl
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Hi Tiger. Christianity has been under historical attack for over a hundred years, starting with the German "rationalists." It's held up really well. We have archeological evidence backing up the Old and New Testements, histories by their enemies (Jews and Romans) which confirm that Jesus lived, was crucified, and his body was not found.

The New Testement was complete by 100 AD, less than 70 years after Jesus' death. There are more manuscripts of the NT than any other Greek work. We don't doubt the writings of Julias Caesar--why Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?

If the disciples lied and Jesus didn't rise, there's no reasonable explanation of why they were willing to be martyred for a lie. Do you have one?

31 posted on 09/27/2001 12:09:17 PM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner
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To: gatorman
What If:

There suddenly was an American terrorist group by, let's say, the name of "The Minutemen". And, these Minutemen terrorists threatened any Islamic country by blowing up Mecca or the Temple Mount if any more acts of war were waged on Americans anywhere in the world? Would that get anyone's attention?

That's the road I think we should take, except that we need not create a terrorist group ourselves. We should just point a nuclear missile at Mecca, announce to the Arab world that Islamic terrorists of all stripes are now their problem and their problem alone to deal with if they wish for Mecca not to become a smoldering crater of glass. We will provide them with every aid and incentive that they might desire to save their most holy city and root out the terrorists once and for all, but if the terrorism begins anew, they have no one but themselves to blame for what happens to Mecca if they allow their madmen to get out of control one more time.

We've been reasonable through the bombings of embassies, the bombing of the USS Cole, the numerous suicide bombings of Palestinian nutcases in Israel, but it is clear that being "reasonable" hasn't gotten us anywhere. It's now time to become unreasonable.

32 posted on 09/27/2001 12:09:37 PM PDT by CubicleGuy
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To: RightWhale, romulus, wideawake, Askel5, Jerry_M
Jack Wheeler is a very tough hombre. He knows his stuff, and he goes for the jugular.

Thanks for the post, and bump it.

33 posted on 09/27/2001 12:13:04 PM PDT by Aggressive Calvinist
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To: francisandbeans
More from Dr. Wheeler: None Dare Call It Fascism

None of the links work anymore, but the whole article is posted at #20.

If anybody has a new link please post on that thread. Also if anyone knows where to find more from Dr. Wheeler, I would love a ping.

34 posted on 09/27/2001 12:13:47 PM PDT by StriperSniper
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To: iron jack, sheltonmac
Know your enemy. Check it out.
35 posted on 09/27/2001 12:14:20 PM PDT by Aggressive Calvinist
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To: francisandbeans, fiddlepig, TO ALL
For any Freepers interested in learning more about the Koran and the rise of Islam if you follow this link it may answer many of your questions - What is The Koran

NOTE: You will not find a lot of literature on the Koran because the Koran is the Word of God made text, and questioning its sanctity or authority is thus considered an outright attack on Islam -- as Salman Rushdie knows all too well.

FReegards . . .


36 posted on 09/27/2001 12:17:57 PM PDT by gatorman
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To: francisandbeans
Thanks for the interesting article. It shed a lot of light on the subject. One thing thing that is curious is that I sometimes hear of Christians converting to Islam. One never hears of Muslims converting to Christianity or anything else (at least I never did).I had a Muslim friend from North Africa. He talked to me a lot about his country and his people. He once told me that his mother had learned Spanish in a class that was being taught by Catholic nuns. Well, maybe it was sewing in this case. Anyway, I am guessing that the Catholic church and other churches do charity work in various countries, and classes are just one of the things that they provide. He said his mother enjoyed it very much and like one of the nuns in particular. I asked if Christians doing charity work ever tried to teach Christian beliefs to any of them. His response was "no" and he said that no Muslim would be willing to listen because their beliefs were too strong. No,not any Muslim. Never That says a lot.
37 posted on 09/27/2001 12:32:06 PM PDT by lucy1
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To: Forgiven_Sinner
There are many facts which were able to be verified. The existence of Jesus is in no doubt. But, many texts in Old and New Testaments have trace of many editing processes which are driven by poltics or social climate after Jesus's time. Some say that one of Gospel was written during Jewish revolt against Romans. The perilous and many times bitter experience colored the tone of that particular Gospel, so I heard. Also the marginalization of Jesus' followers among Jews colored their view on Jews, too. There were many Gospels around around 300 A.D.. Why certain Gospel made it into the New Testament and others didn't may be more to do with various players at the Nicea conference than Jesus's intent. It happens to all religion. I do not want this conflict to expand into cracking the foundation of each religion, degenerating into the shouting match between Christians and Arabs. You know where this leads, full scale Crusade and Jihad. Is anybody in this country up to this ?
38 posted on 09/27/2001 12:35:53 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: AmericanCheeseFood
The Koran teaches that the sun revolves around the earth .

So does the Bible.

39 posted on 09/27/2001 12:37:41 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Chapter and verse, please.
40 posted on 09/27/2001 12:41:26 PM PDT by Aristophanes
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To: Who is George Salt?
Muslims believe Mohammed, Christ, and Abraham (as well as Moses, Noah, and many others) were all prophets of God.

Sure, but they come somewhat short of acknowledging Christ as the offspring of God.

They would easily accept Noah, as he was the father of Seth, from which many Muslims (and of course the Jews) derive.

41 posted on 09/27/2001 12:43:43 PM PDT by AlGone2001
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To: TigerLikesRooster
You know where this leads, full scale Crusade and Jihad. Is anybody in this country up to this?

I'm sad to say it, but I suspect that certain fringe elements of the Christian right lust for a holy war as much as the Taliban.

42 posted on 09/27/2001 12:45:19 PM PDT by Who is George Salt?
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To: StriperSniper
Dr. Wheeler has a few more articles on the site this one came from
43 posted on 09/27/2001 12:46:09 PM PDT by francisandbeans
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To: francisandbeans
Good article!

Al-Rawandi concludes that the Sira, the life of Mohammed in Mecca and Medina is a myth, a "baseless fiction." This is the conclusion of a substantial number of serious academic historians working on Islamic Studies today. They include Mohammed Ibn al-Warraq, Mohammed Ibn al-Rawandi, John Wansbrough, Kenneth Cragg, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Burton, Andrew Rippin, Julian Baldick, Gerald Hawting, and Suliman Bashear. Yet they and their research are virtually unknown.

Islam a myth - now that says it all.

44 posted on 09/27/2001 12:50:30 PM PDT by neutrino (Neutrino)
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To: lucy1
No,not any Muslim. Never That says a lot.

If that were in fact the case, moslems would be perfectly willing to invite Christian missionaries in, and would permit them to distribute bibles freely. The fact that they do not implies that they realize that if the masses ever become enlightened, they will conclude that islam is a myth and a fraud, as the article showed.

45 posted on 09/27/2001 12:54:12 PM PDT by neutrino (neutrino)
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To: Forgiven_Sinner
"If the disciples lied and Jesus didn't rise, there's no reasonable explanation of why they were willing to be martyred for a lie. Do you have one?"

The answer to your question seems to be predicated upon the religious perspective of the questioner.

......``But any Muslim who dies on the side of Afghanistan will die as a martyr and go to paradise.''.

''the first martyrs in the battle of Islam of this age.''...

"the Muslims of Chechnya is a religious duty and anyone who killed a Russian would become a martyr and enter heaven."

"He said he was praying to Allah that they would be accepted as martyrs, and ``their children are my children and I will be their caretaker.''

46 posted on 09/27/2001 12:55:40 PM PDT by sinclair
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To: AlGone2001
Sure, but they come somewhat short of acknowledging Christ as the offspring of God.

True. They regard Jesus as a prophet, but they reject any claim of divinity. They consider all the prophets - including Mohammed - to be mortal. I believe the Koran does address Jesus as "the blessed one" and I think that has something to do with the virgin birth.

They do believe that in the Ascension, but they believe Jesus ascended to heaven as a mortal, where he lives to this day. They believe Jesus will return to earth during the end times to complete the remainder of his destiny on earth (and ultimately die as a mortal). BTW, they have their own version of Armageddon, where everyone dies. No rapture. They also believe in a Judgment Day.

They also reject the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" - they regard it as a form of polytheism. I've got to confess, I have a hard time swallowing that one. Even at the age of 7 or 8, it sounded pretty fishy to me.

47 posted on 09/27/2001 12:56:11 PM PDT by Who is George Salt?
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To: Aquinasfan
The two (somewhat contradictory) stories of creation in Genesis.
The lack of corroborating historical records for the Hebrews in Egypt and their subsequent flight.
The lack of physical evidence for the conquest of Canaan.
The questionable historicity of Jesus.

Man, we've covered all these in dozens of threads on this forum, and I know you've been part of these discussions, or someone using your screen name has been.

48 posted on 09/27/2001 1:16:08 PM PDT by Junior
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To: neutrino
Actually, you have the phenomenon of MINO, Muslim in name only. Young Muslims (mostly male) come to Western countries to escape Islam. They give lip service to it and possibly even go to Mosque, but in their private lives they ignore it.

You see, the punishment for being an ex-Muslim is spelled out in the Koran -- death.

49 posted on 09/27/2001 1:24:37 PM PDT by AmishDude
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To: Junior
I don't know as much about the others, but

The questionable historicity of Jesus.

There is more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for the existence of Aristotle.

50 posted on 09/27/2001 1:27:59 PM PDT by AmishDude
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