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Jews disagree on an afterlife Most of Judaism not concerned with afterlife
The Times-Picayune ^ | 11/24/01 | Bruce Nolan

Posted on 11/24/2001 4:17:58 AM PST by chemicalman

Edited on 07/14/2004 12:58:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Q. Do Jews believe in an afterlife?

A. "As many Jews as there are, there are that many opinions," said Rabbi David Goldstein of Touro Synagogue.

However monolithic Judaism might look from a distance, it contains a good deal of diversity of thought even on a question one might think as basic as whether anything lies beyond the grave -- which, incidentally, is not a question of great concern in most of Judaism, he said.


(Excerpt) Read more at nola.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: afterlife; judaism; religion
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1 posted on 11/24/2001 4:17:58 AM PST by chemicalman
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To: chemicalman
The Hebrew Scriptures are completely silent on the idea of an afterlife...

Many of the Hebrew scriptures are the same as the Old Testament - are they not? If I recall from my church-going days, the OT has many references to an afterlife.

It seems like the Reform movement in modern Judaism is very liberal and humanistic. A Reform Jew I once knew told me that when he dies, part of him will live on in his descendants, but he has no eternal soul.

What a sad, empty belief system...
Before the atheist and "diveresity is god" freepers arrive here, let me say this: No one alive on this Earth will ever prove or disprove the existence of a God, Heaven, hell, or an eternal soul - But in the END we will find out who is right and who is wrong, won't we?

2 posted on 11/24/2001 4:44:44 AM PST by pocat
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To: chemicalman
"The Hebrew Scriptures are completely silent on the idea of an afterlife, which began to develop in Jewish thought around the time of the arrival of Christianity, Goldstein said."

Are the Hebrew Scriptures identical to the OT?

3 posted on 11/24/2001 4:49:20 AM PST by Patria One
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To: pocat
But in the END we will find out who is right and who is wrong, won't we?

The act of finding out implies an existence in which right and wrong can be contemplated. I reject that premise.

4 posted on 11/24/2001 4:51:58 AM PST by Physicist
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To: a_Turk
Jews disagree on an afterlife Most of Judaism not concerned with afterlife Culture/Society Source: The Times-Picayune Published: 11/24/01 Author: Bruce Nolan Posted on 11/24/01 5:18 AM Pacific by chemicalman
5 posted on 11/24/2001 4:54:00 AM PST by Patria One
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To: pocat
When the Jews questioned Christ concerning the afterlife, he pointed to the old testament (their scripture) and asked them why the prophets would speak of the God of Abraham and others if Abraham did not STILL exist (paraprhase).
6 posted on 11/24/2001 4:54:36 AM PST by Moby Grape
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To: Physicist
an existence in which right and wrong can be contemplated

If we cease to exist after death, you win the debate...

If there is an afterlife where we have the consciousness to comtemplate right or wrong, you lose - terribly.

No need to use geeky logic or become philosophical - it's not that hard to understand.

7 posted on 11/24/2001 5:02:06 AM PST by pocat
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To: Patria One
if scripture means sacred text, what else can it be but OT
the other Hebrew writings are the Torah -- which I think is a set of Laws
I don't think there was a separate judicial system back then -- when someone wanted a problem settled by law, they went to the Rabbi
my hunch is that when Jews want to find their way back to God -- they pick up the New Testament
which helps them re-find God in the OT
this is my own experience, and that of my friends
Love, Palo
8 posted on 11/24/2001 5:03:52 AM PST by palo verde
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To: 2sheep
bump
9 posted on 11/24/2001 5:07:12 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: palo verde; Impeach the Boy
"When the Jews questioned Christ concerning the afterlife, he pointed to the old testament (their scripture) and asked them why the prophets would speak of the God of Abraham and others if Abraham did not STILL exist (paraprhase)."

Where can I find that?

10 posted on 11/24/2001 5:11:18 AM PST by Patria One
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To: pocat
No need to use geeky logic or become philosophical - it's not that hard to understand.

Indeed, nothing is easier to understand than Pascal's Wager. Whichever religion imagines the best heaven and the worst hell is the one that must be true.

11 posted on 11/24/2001 5:15:08 AM PST by Physicist
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To: palo verde
Excerpt from Salvation in the Old Testament

http://www.uhcg.org/HoI/Salvation-in-OT.html

The the Holy Scriptures

Okay, what is the reward of the "saved" if one follows only the Holy Scriptures which is actually the Holy Scriptures? Did the ancient patriarchs 4 stumble around in the dark for 4,000 years awaiting a deified man to come and shed his blood for them so that they could obtain salvation? Absolutely not! YHWH (ETERNAL our CREATOR) was and is the Redeemer of Israel as He states in the next two

Scriptures: "But now thus saith YHWH that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, fear not: for I have redeemed thee. I have called thee by thy name: thou art mine." (Isa. 43:1). "For I am YHWH CRTEATOR, the Holy One of Israel, thy SAVIOR: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee." (Isa. 43:3)

In fact, our Creator plainly states, "I am YHWH and besides Me there is NO SAVIOR!" 5

We could continue in Isaiah 45:15, 45:21, and 49:26, all of which show that the CREATOR of Israel calls Himself the only Savior and Redeemer of Israel. However, the point here is that the titles of Savior and Redeemer tell us something about our future as Israelites. What are we saved from? What are we redeemed for? These are questions that are raised in the titles of the CREATOR of Israel. The answer is clear. We are saved from death; Ezekiel 18:4 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." And again in verse 20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." We are redeemed, meaning YHWH Himself has bought us: "I gave Egypt for thy ransom...." You see, it was our CREATOR that gave us His Commandments in the first place, and, likewise, it is He Who demanded a penalty - the death penalty - if we broke those Commandments. Yet, just as you and I, in any situation in which someone wrongs us, have the right to completely forgive, the Holy One of Israel has the right to forgive sins in any manner He sees fit. He alone can abrogate the penalty, which He freely does upon genuine repentance. 6

This is exactly what our Creator does, as He promises us through His prophets: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil. ...Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: THOUGH YOUR SINS BE AS SCARLET, THEY SHALL BE AS WHITE AS SNOW; THOUGH THEY BE RED LIKE CRIMSON, THEY SHALL BE AS WOOL" (Isaiah 1:16, 18.).

Ezekiel also states this clearly: "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols ('Baal' worship! 7 ). I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your Holy One" (Ezek. 36:25-28 8 ).

Of course, 'Christianity' teaches something totally unscriptural. It says that because ETERNAL demanded the death penalty for sins, the only way to pay that penalty was by the physical death of a sinner. After that, the person in question was dead with no hope.

In "Christianity's" formula, the Deity of the the Holy Scriptures was harsh and demanding. Yet, we are told that 'J-sus' died to pay the ultimate penalty, 9 sparing us from death so that we might live. But there simply is no formula for such a teaching unless one goes to the Babylonian Mysteries!

12 posted on 11/24/2001 5:18:01 AM PST by Patria One
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To: chemicalman
I'm with Woody Allen on this one. (Annie Hall)

I wonder if there is an afterlife, and if so, will they be able to break a twenty?

13 posted on 11/24/2001 5:21:27 AM PST by veronica
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To: chemicalman
"In terms of liberal Judaism, the notion of an afterlife has more or less been debunked," said Goldstein, whose Reform congregation sits in that liberal wing. "Beginning with the Age of Reason, people have viewed it as an outgrowth of superstition. Reform Judaism in the last 150 years has given very little weight to the treatment of the afterlife."

How does one "debunk" the notion of an afterlife? Would that require proving that there is no afterlife?

14 posted on 11/24/2001 5:24:35 AM PST by Logophile
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To: Patria One
Where can I find that

How about here:

Matthew 22: 31-32

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

15 posted on 11/24/2001 5:26:25 AM PST by snippy_about_it
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To: snippy_about_it
Thank you.

Before Jesus, was an afterlife clear in the OT?

16 posted on 11/24/2001 5:31:51 AM PST by Patria One
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To: Physicist
Indeed, nothing is easier to understand than Pascal's Wager. Whichever religion imagines the best heaven and the worst hell is the one that must be true.

Please explain this.... it makes no sense to me!

Looks to me like first of all Pascal assumes that religion is mere "imagination". Then he assumes that we are so stupid as to follow the one which offers us the "best"... "best" being a relative term would assume that "truth" would be different to different people. But then you being so scientific and all... surely you know that there can be only ONE truth or set of facts.

17 posted on 11/24/2001 5:32:29 AM PST by Apple Pan Dowdy
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To: pocat
"What a sad, empty belief system... "

Why would you act in such a small way as to attack someone's beliefs by calling them "sad and empty" without provocation? One could reasonably conclude that you have a sad and empty conscious for doing so.

And on Sunday morning,… That's is pitiful. Spend some time with your minister.

18 posted on 11/24/2001 5:33:13 AM PST by elfman2
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To: Physicist
Whichever religion imagines the best heaven and the worst hell is the one that must be true.

It's amazing that all those apostles would allow themselves to be martyred for their imaginations! Yes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Paul, all imagined it...Obviously, they were all insane and GREAT liars!!!

HEELLLOO!!!

19 posted on 11/24/2001 5:36:06 AM PST by sirchtruth
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To: elfman2
" And on Sunday morning "

Got ahead of myself…

20 posted on 11/24/2001 5:37:29 AM PST by elfman2
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To: *Religion
Bump to Religion list
21 posted on 11/24/2001 5:40:58 AM PST by wai-ming
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To: chemicalman
Dr Laura (whom is wrong as often as she is right imo) said once that Jews were denied complete access to the Torah until recently (?) and that the teachings therein were instead interpreted by a Rabbi and then passed along to others.

She prefaced all this with "Have you been taught true Torah?" and went on to criticize the practice of just allowing the masses unfettered access to this text, because it will invariably be twisted and misinterpreted.. Both accidentally and intentionally.

I wonder if all this "diversity" is Laura being right, or if it began way before this and is corruption of the text by the Rabbi themselves..

22 posted on 11/24/2001 5:41:13 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: sirchtruth

19 Guys on 4 commercial airliners did the same thing a few months ago..

23 posted on 11/24/2001 5:43:28 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: Jhoffa_
"It's amazing that all those apostles would allow themselves to be martyred for their imaginations! Yes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Paul, all imagined it...Obviously, they were all insane and GREAT liars!!!

19 Guys on 4 commercial airliners did the same thing a few months ago.."

Point taken.

24 posted on 11/24/2001 5:47:23 AM PST by Patria One
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy
Whoops! Apparently, JohnRob's automatic tag closing feature doesn't work for <irony> tags.
25 posted on 11/24/2001 5:47:58 AM PST by Physicist
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To: sirchtruth
Surely you don't believe that the Christian religion is the only religion with martyrs.

Or perhaps you believe that they are all true?

26 posted on 11/24/2001 5:49:37 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Jhoffa_
19 Guys on 4 commercial airliners did the same thing a few months ago..

Yes, and I'm sure they know the names of the 72 virgins and their moms too...

Ok, the apostles witnessed the things that Christ did, (Paul just raised ppl from the dead) do you get it now? None of the wacko zealots have never met OBL or seen him do anything...they died for an imagination!

27 posted on 11/24/2001 5:50:50 AM PST by sirchtruth
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To: Physicist
READ reply #27...
28 posted on 11/24/2001 5:51:39 AM PST by sirchtruth
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: chemicalman
The goal of Judaism is not to attain salvation and paradise, but to make sure you have lived a good life here

This explains a lot.

30 posted on 11/24/2001 5:53:55 AM PST by rabidralph
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To: sirchtruth
Ok, the apostles witnessed the things that Christ did, (Paul just raised ppl from the dead) do you get it now?

Surely you don't believe that the Christian religion is the only religion that claims to have performed miracles.

Or perhaps you believe that they are all true?

31 posted on 11/24/2001 5:54:58 AM PST by Physicist
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To: sirchtruth
I "got it" before.

One man's imagination is another man's "faith"..

32 posted on 11/24/2001 5:56:11 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: Jhoffa_
The Bible is mostly useful against paganism in its advocacy of analytical look at actions, consequences, repent and ritual that reminds of a past that needs to be discussed analyticaly.

Those who use the Bible wrongly are those false prophets who dump the analytical stuff for policies that they pretend will bring salvation. But this is akin to leftist progressism and contrary to progress. Even Jesus told us not to worry about the future while Moses warned us against fortune tellers.

Indeed salvation and progress is only attainable through analytical look at the situation using available data and information. This is equivalent to repent.

33 posted on 11/24/2001 5:57:45 AM PST by lavaroise
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: sirchtruth
...and not only did the apostles witness Christ's acts, they wrote down his words in manuscripts immediately...
35 posted on 11/24/2001 5:58:05 AM PST by sirchtruth
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To: sirchtruth
Not all the Christian martyrs saw Jesus. Is Joan of Arc considered a Christian martyr?
36 posted on 11/24/2001 6:00:02 AM PST by Patria One
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To: Physicist
I don't believe Pascal was making a "truth" statement. He was making a risk/reward calculation.
37 posted on 11/24/2001 6:00:03 AM PST by Faraday
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To: teenager
You have the sense of humor of a lemon.

Actually the line was uttered by the character in the movie, but why I even bother answering uptight angry grouches like you I have no idea.

38 posted on 11/24/2001 6:01:38 AM PST by veronica
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To: elfman2
Why would you act in such a small way as to attack someone's beliefs by calling them "sad and empty" without provocation?

I think he wasa referring to a set of people that spend there lives worshipping and prostrating themselves to God with no belief that there is any more after this. What would be the point of worshiping to have sins forgiven if there are no penalties in the next life? To me the fact that there is an eternal soul makes me appreciate life on this earth just that much more knowing my actions here and now will be my judgement in the next life.

39 posted on 11/24/2001 6:01:43 AM PST by Bommer
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To: Patria One
"When the Jews questioned Christ concerning the afterlife, he pointed to the old testament (their scripture) and asked them why the prophets would speak of the God of Abraham and others if Abraham did not STILL exist (paraprhase)." Where can I find that?

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

Alas

40 posted on 11/24/2001 6:03:08 AM PST by Alas
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To: Physicist
Whoops! Apparently, JohnRob's automatic tag closing feature doesn't work for tags.

Does the above mean that you were using "irony" or Pascal was?

BTW... I peeked at your profile so I would know to whom I am speaking.... and I must say, "CONGRATULATIONS" are in order on the birth of your precious son! If he isn't proof of the existance of God, then nothing is.

41 posted on 11/24/2001 6:03:26 AM PST by Apple Pan Dowdy
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To: Physicist
A person of your intellect can not understand that ppl would not go to be martyred for something they knew be a lie? These men claimed to have witnessed the acts...Would you die for a lie?
42 posted on 11/24/2001 6:03:28 AM PST by sirchtruth
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To: lavaroise

I thought to repent meant to not only regret an action, but to turn from it and to encourage others who might ask to do the same.

If you're merely analyzing, you can still be completely wrong in your analysis.. right? (and people have this incredibly, almost limitless capacity for rationalizing things anyway.)

43 posted on 11/24/2001 6:03:49 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: teenager
And maybe you should not be so huffy:: Pope Offers Apology For Sexual Abuse, 23 countries report incidents by priests
44 posted on 11/24/2001 6:06:46 AM PST by veronica
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To: Bommer
I think he wasa referring to a set of people that spend there lives worshipping and prostrating themselves to God with no belief that there is any more after this. What would be the point of worshiping to have sins forgiven if there are no penalties in the next life?

How much better to be a good person, NOW, here, for no other reason than it is the right thing to do.

Do you need to be bribed with goodies for later, to behave now?

Don't the Islamists become martyrs to ensure a happy afterlife?

I can just imagine what this thread will turn into. Carrying on just because some other folks have a different set of beliefs.

45 posted on 11/24/2001 6:11:06 AM PST by veronica
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To: Patria One
"When the Jews questioned Christ concerning the afterlife, he pointed to the old testament (their scripture) and asked them why the prophets would speak of the God of Abraham and others if Abraham did not STILL exist (paraprhase)."

Where can I find that?

The Gospel According to Saint Matthew:

2:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


46 posted on 11/24/2001 6:12:10 AM PST by SauronOfMordor
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To: Patria One
Right. But I am referring specifically to the one's that claimed to have witnesses Christ's acts. I don't know of many ppl who would make something up and then go die for it.

Joan of Arc never witnessed, but believed... Oh, the insanity of it all!

47 posted on 11/24/2001 6:12:19 AM PST by sirchtruth
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To: chemicalman
The Hebrew Scriptures are completely silent on the idea of an afterlife... Old Testament Scripture supporting the afterlife: Daniel 12:1-2 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. BTW, this OT passage also supports the resurrection of the dead.
48 posted on 11/24/2001 6:14:38 AM PST by AsYouAre
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To: Patria One
'J-sus'

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

49 posted on 11/24/2001 6:14:57 AM PST by William Terrell
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To: chemicalman
The Hebrew Scriptures are completely silent on the idea of an afterlife...

Old Testament Scripture supporting the afterlife:

Daniel 12:1-2
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

BTW, this OT passage also supports the resurrection of the dead.
50 posted on 11/24/2001 6:16:34 AM PST by AsYouAre
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